Re: Mind's Eye Freewill - A useful myth?

Lee , we may say we are free but our freedom is bound by God's will.

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 4:43 PM, Lee Douglas <leerevdouglas@gmail.com> wrote:
> Then we need to detirmine what is meant by free huh.
>
> All things are subject to their natures and so it is true that all things
> are somewhat fettered, and hence not truely free.  Yet this makes a mockery
> of the word free, to such an extent that we may as well not use the word.
> yet we do, and we contiune to do so.  Are we then mistaken calling any
> things free?  Is the bird not free to fly the skies?  Yes of course the bird
> is free to fly, but what, I hear you ask, about flying above the atmosphere
> of the planet?  The bird is certianly not free to do that; so can we say
> that the bird is not free to fly?
>
>
> Of course not, that would be absured.  So free then must mean free within
> the constraints of it's enviroument or it's nature.
>
>
> When a man reaches a desiscion, yes it is true that such a descions can only
> ever be made within the constraints of the mans nature or enviroment or
> indeed the many veriables effecting such choice, but the question must be,
> is it a choice freely made or somehow forced upon the man?
>
> Yes indeed if we are to belive that our wills are not free then we must
> answer by what power are our choices forced upon us?
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, 30 May 2012 10:09:12 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>>
>> The will to change ourselves is innate and a part- function of the
>> brain , which being physical is bound by various factors.
>>
>> On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Lee Douglas <leerevdouglas@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Hey Malcymo,
>> >
>> > The deterministic argument against freewill has just never done it for
>> > me.
>> > It seems to me rather like faith based beliefe, and of course those of
>> > you
>> > here that know me would know that I have nothing against such belife and
>> > personaly find it prevalant all round us, heh escpeasily in those who
>> > profess to be without it!
>> >
>> > The argument goes something like this.
>> >
>> > You agree that nothing exists without a cause, then each of our choices
>> > must
>> > be predetermined upon a cause of which we have little or no knowledge
>> > of.
>> >
>> > It's a huge leap of faith, I mean to declare determinism true without
>> > first
>> > pinning down all of these causes.  For if we can find just one counter
>> > example then the whole deal just blows away on the wind.
>> >
>> > As to where the brain gets it's data, well all around, everything that
>> > we
>> > encounter colours our perceptions and our ideas about the world around
>> > us,
>> > about how we do, and how we ought to deal with each other, in other
>> > words
>> > the building of the 'The Self'.  'Common Sense' shows us that we can in
>> > some
>> > ways mold our Selves, in effect act consiously upon the brain to effect
>> > changes inthe brain.  This sure seems akin to freewill to me.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tuesday, 29 May 2012 20:25:40 UTC+1, malcymo wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hello each,
>> >>
>> >> I shall be within reach of modern technology again for the next 6
>> >> months when the jungle will call again.
>> >>
>> >> Have read the new posts on this thread with interest and am sensing a
>> >> belief that because the brain makes our choices then they must be
>> >> free.
>> >> But to understand whether our choices are free or not do we not have
>> >> to establish from whence the brain derives the data on which it bases
>> >> its choices??? Is not our behavior largely  based on evolutionary
>> >> successful actions which have proved successful in the past
>> >> (sometimes irrational and instinctive) and only slightly modified by
>> >> rational thought on which you all know my view.
>> >>
>> >> It seems a worry to me that most evolutionary apt behaviours are now
>> >> not adapting quickly enough to be relevant in our present world.
>> >>
>> >> Nice to be back and see the site active.
>> >>
>> >> Malc
>> >>
>> >> On May 18, 9:13 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > You are blessed, Allan, I feel... in having a rather uncomplicated
>> >> > view. Most people are yet to discover that !
>> >> >
>> >> > Seriously... the complexities they speak of is more about themselves
>> >> > than of what they speak of. But, peace, dear ones !
>> >> >
>> >> > On May 18, 12:01 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > > Strange Vam ,  I have always seen  more choices, now I also see the
>> >> > > effect
>> >> > > of the choices ..  which leaves only basic first path. I do have
>> >> > > absolute
>> >> > > free will to leave that path any time I chose.. to date I have seen
>> >> > > no
>> >> > > one
>> >> > > offer a better path.
>> >> > > On May 18, 2012 7:46 AM, "Vam" <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > > " Life is a combination of free will & destiny. More you go deep
>> >> > > > in
>> >> > > > meditation & align with laws of nature, your free will increases
>> >> > > > -
>> >> > > > Sri
>> >> > > > Sri "
>> >> >
>> >> > > > Just read this quote on Twitter.
>> >> >
>> >> > > > On May 10, 2:19 pm, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > > > > Ohhh Molly there is always choice, and we are faced with
>> >> > > > > countless
>> >> > > > > everyday.  Perhaps though the biggest choice is simply " To be"
>> >> > > > >  Or
>> >> > > > indeed
>> >> > > > > to, not be.
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > On Monday, 9 January 2012 23:20:58 UTC, Molly wrote:
>> >> > > > > > Perhaps, gabby.  But at this point in my life, for me, there
>> >> > > > > > is
>> >> > > > > > no
>> >> > > > > > other choice.  So is it really a choice?
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > > On Jan 9, 6:14 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > > > > > > Oh Molly, I believe you are more than the box you come in,
>> >> > > > > > > too! I
>> >> > > > > > > believe you choose to want to feel lovely at each moment,
>> >> > > > > > > feeling
>> >> > > > > > > alive!
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > > > On Jan 9, 11:34 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > > > > We know by recognizing his potentiality and helping him
>> >> > > > > > > > to
>> >> > > > > > > > do the
>> >> > > > > > > > same.  Sometimes, given the box it comes in, this takes
>> >> > > > > > > > an
>> >> > > > > > > > extraordinary amount of love and care.  At some point,
>> >> > > > > > > > choice, like
>> >> > > > > > > > goals and purpose and all the rest, just fall away.  And
>> >> > > > > > > > here we
>> >> > > > are.
>> >> > > > > > > > Relating to those we love.  Feeling the life we've been
>> >> > > > > > > > given.  Ten
>> >> > > > > > > > years ago I would not have imagined myself as I am today.
>> >> > > > > > > >  I
>> >> > > > > > > > am
>> >> > > > here
>> >> > > > > > > > because somewhere along the line I discovered that the
>> >> > > > > > > > best
>> >> > > > > > > > I can
>> >> > > > "do"
>> >> > > > > > > > is express myself with love in each moment, and recognize
>> >> > > > > > > > the same
>> >> > > > in
>> >> > > > > > > > others, whatever the circumstance.  Given that, life
>> >> > > > > > > > unfolds.
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > > > > On Jan 9, 3:42 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > > > > > Some of this take on epistemology can be gleaned by
>> >> > > > > > > > > observing
>> >> > > > what's
>> >> > > > > > > > > around us.  Teenagers are a minefield of such
>> >> > > > > > > > > information.
>> >> > > > > > > > >  My
>> >> > > > > > > > > grandson (14) is currently making excuses for not
>> >> > > > > > > > > having
>> >> > > > > > > > > enough
>> >> > > > > > baths
>> >> > > > > > > > > and showers along the lines of 'it's my body'.
>> >> > > > > > > > >  Empirically he
>> >> > > > > > stinks.
>> >> > > > > > > > > He's barely noticed how much work gets done around him.
>> >> > > > > > > > >  He can't
>> >> > > > > > keep
>> >> > > > > > > > > his PC free of viruses or use his laptop with enough
>> >> > > > > > > > > care
>> >> > > > > > > > > not to
>> >> > > > > > break
>> >> > > > > > > > > the charger lead (etc.).  It has barely dawned on him
>> >> > > > > > > > > that
>> >> > > > > > > > > I was
>> >> > > > > > once
>> >> > > > > > > > > his age and that he has never been my age.  He's a good
>> >> > > > > > > > > enough
>> >> > > > lad
>> >> > > > > > and
>> >> > > > > > > > > this is all that really matters to me.  He was like an
>> >> > > > > > > > > Irishman
>> >> > > > put
>> >> > > > > > in
>> >> > > > > > > > > a barrel and told to piss in the corner the other day
>> >> > > > > > > > > (add
>> >> > > > > > > > > Pole,
>> >> > > > > > > > > Belgian etc. to xenophobic choice).  I gave him a power
>> >> > > > > > > > > lead
>> >> > > > > > straight
>> >> > > > > > > > > from the box and he spent the time trying to fit it to
>> >> > > > > > > > > the
>> >> > > > > > > > > socket
>> >> > > > > > with
>> >> > > > > > > > > the insulation packaging left on.  I guess he won't
>> >> > > > > > > > > next
>> >> > > > > > > > > time,
>> >> > > > > > though
>> >> > > > > > > > > I proved a slower learner on some such stuff.  It would
>> >> > > > > > > > > be
>> >> > > > > > > > > easy
>> >> > > > > > enough
>> >> > > > > > > > > to leave him alone to "develop" into a useless, smelly
>> >> > > > > > > > > nitwit.
>> >> > > >  The
>> >> > > > > > > > > idea is we don't.  How do we know?
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > > > > > On Jan 7, 10:34 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > > > > > > I agree with RP that we are looking at complex
>> >> > > > > > > > > > relations.  Lots
>> >> > > > > > has
>> >> > > > > > > > > > been said on Mal's thought - this is a standard\
>> >> > > > > > > > > > example:
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > > > > > > "The Darwinian revolution of the nineteenth century
>> >> > > > > > > > > > suggested
>> >> > > > an
>> >> > > > > > > > > > alternative approach first explored by Dewey and the
>> >> > > > pragmatists.
>> >> > > > > > > > > > Human beings, as the products of evolutionary
>> >> > > > > > > > > > development, are
>> >> > > > > > natural
>> >> > > > > > > > > > beings. Their capacities for knowledge and belief are
>> >> > > > > > > > > > also the
>> >> > > > > > > > > > products of a natural evolutionary development. As
>> >> > > > > > > > > > such,
>> >> > > > > > > > > > there
>> >> > > > is
>> >> > > > > > some
>> >> > > > > > > > > > reason to suspect that knowing, as a natural
>> >> > > > > > > > > > activity,
>> >> > > > > > > > > > could
>> >> > > > and
>> >> > > > > > > > > > should be treated and analyzed along lines compatible
>> >> > > > > > > > > > with its
>> >> > > > > > status,
>> >> > > > > > > > > > i. e., by the methods of natural science. On this
>> >> > > > > > > > > > view,
>> >> > > > > > > > > > there
>> >> > > > is
>> >> > > > > > no
>> >> > > > > > > > > > sharp division of labor between science and
>> >> > > > > > > > > > epistemology. In
>> >> > > > > > > > > > particular, the results of particular sciences such
>> >> > > > > > > > > > as
>> >> > > > > > evolutionary
>> >> > > > > > > > > > biology and psychology are not ruled a priori
>> >> > > > > > > > > > irrelevant
>> >> > > > > > > > > > to the
>> >> > > > > > > > > > solution of epistemological problems. Such
>> >> > > > > > > > > > approaches,
>> >> > > > > > > > > > in
>> >> > > > general,
>> >> > > > > > are
>> >> > > > > > > > > > called naturalistic epistemologies, whether they are
>> >> > > > > > > > > > directly
>> >> > > > > > > > > > motivated by evolutionary considerations or not.
>> >> > > > > > > > > > Those
>> >> > > > > > > > > > which
>> >> > > > are
>> >> > > > > > > > > > directly motivated by evolutionary considerations and
>> >> > > > > > > > > > which
>> >> > > > argue
>> >> > > > > > that
>> >> > > > > > > > > > the growth of knowledge follows the pattern of
>> >> > > > > > > > > > evolution
>> >> > > > > > > > > > in
>> >> > > > > > biology
>> >> > > > > > > > > > are called "evolutionary epistemologies."
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > > > > > > Evolutionary epistemology is the attempt to address
>> >> > > > > > > > > > questions
>> >> > > > in
>> >> > > > > > the
>> >> > > > > > > > > > theory of knowledge from an evolutionary point of
>> >> > > > > > > > > > view.
>> >> > > > > > Evolutionary
>> >> > > > > > > > > > epistemology involves, in part, deploying models and
>> >> > > > > > > > > > metaphors
>> >> > > > > > drawn
>> >> > > > > > > > > > from evolutionary biology in the attempt to
>> >> > > > > > > > > > characterize
>> >> > > > > > > > > > and
>> >> > > > > > resolve
>> >> > > > > > > > > > issues arising in epistemology and conceptual change.
>> >> > > > > > > > > > As
>> >> > > > > > disciplines
>> >> > > > > > > > > > co-evolve, models are traded back and forth. Thus,
>> >> > > > > > > > > > evolutionary
>> >> > > > > > > > > > epistemology also involves attempts to understand how
>> >> > > > biological
>> >> > > > > > > > > > evolution proceeds by interpreting it through models
>> >> > > > > > > > > > drawn from
>> >> > > > > > our
>> >> > > > > > > > > > understanding of conceptual change and the
>> >> > > > > > > > > > development
>> >> > > > > > > > > > of
>> >> > > > > > theories.
>> >> > > > > > > > > > The term "evolutionary epistemology" was coined by
>> >> > > > > > > > > > Donald
>> >> > > > Campbell
>> >> > > > > > > > > > (1974)."
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > > > > > > I don't agree, incidentally that we need to 'apply
>> >> > > > > > > > > > science
>> >> > > > > > methods' to
>> >> > > > > > > > > > look into this and feel this is far too restrictive.
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > > > > > > On Jan 7, 8:52 pm, malcymo <malc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > Here is a thought.
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > If rational thinking has resulted from the
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > sucessful
>> >> > > > > > evolutionary
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > developement of the biological brain then that is
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > all
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > it is.
>> >> > > > > > Certainly
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > rational thoght would not have developed in (SAY) a
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > fungus
>> >> > > > in a
>> >> > > > > > cave
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > for it would have no survival advantage. So
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > freewill
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > is
>> >> > > > nothing
>> >> > > > > > more
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > than an apt evolutionary development.
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 7, 9:03 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > those are just excuses,   yes my back ground and
>> >> > > > experiences
>> >> > > > > > are what I use
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > for making decision ---  that does not bind me,
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > >  i
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > still
>> >> > > > have
>> >> > > > > > the choice to
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > respond as i like
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > Allan
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 3:33 AM, RP Singh
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > <123...@gmail.com
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > > wrote:
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > We are bound by very subtle ties and our
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ostensible
>> >> > > > freedom
>> >> > > > > > is wrapped
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > in bondage. If we lock up criminals we are
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > bound
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > and if
>> >> > > > we
>> >> > > > > > don't we
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > are still bound. Nature, within our will and
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > that
>> >> > > > without,
>> >> > > > > > binds us.
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 5:01 AM, archytas <
>> >> > > > nwte...@gmail.com>
>> >> > > > > > wrote:
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Secular myths abound - largely because most
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > of
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > us are
>> >> > > > > > early-tuned to
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > religious ones.  I suspect that the idea of
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > social
>> >> > > > science
>> >> > > > > > is one of
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > them.  Peter Winch wrote a small book on the
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > topic in
>> >> > > > 1960
>> >> > > > > > - I'd guess
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > he was one of Wittgenstein's students.  We
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > mythologise
>> >> > > > > > many secular
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > elements of society - democracy is one,
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > leadership
>> >> > > > > > another.  Science
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > becomes one in those thinking it can answer
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > all
>> >> > > > questions
>> >> > > > > > or (as in
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawkins) is the only important focus.  If we
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > have no
>> >> > > > free
>> >> > > > > > will we
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > should stop locking up criminals.  The
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > question
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > on free
>> >> > > > > > will is what
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > life would entail without it and consequent
>> >> > > > > > responsibilities denied.
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even Nietzsche insisted having seen the chaos
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > we
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
>> >> > > > > > make oursleves
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > works of art.
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 6, 5:17 pm, Allan H
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > <allanh1...@gmail.com>
>> >> > > > wrote:
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I totally  agree with you Molly
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Jan 6, 2012 12:15 PM, "Molly"
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> <mollyb...@gmail.com
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > There is more to life than the realm of
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > cause
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > and
>> >> > > > > > effect.  Many of us
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > just prefer it there.
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > On Jan 5, 5:27 pm, Allan H
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > <allanh1...@gmail.com>
>> >> > > > > > wrote:
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > Free will is a reality..  the problem
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > comes
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > once
>> >> > > > you
>> >> > > > > > made your
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > choice and
>> >> >
>> >> > ...
>> >> >
>> >> > read more »