Re: Mind's Eye Freewill - A useful myth?

How about the force of nature which gives animals and plants far less
'freedom'. Why should our choices be less arbitrary?


On May 30, 11:13 pm, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Then we need to detirmine what is meant by free huh.
>
> All things are subject to their natures and so it is true that all things
> are somewhat fettered, and hence not truely free.  Yet this makes a mockery
> of the word free, to such an extent that we may as well not use the word.
> yet we do, and we contiune to do so.  Are we then mistaken calling any
> things free?  Is the bird not free to fly the skies?  Yes of course the
> bird is free to fly, but what, I hear you ask, about flying above the
> atmosphere of the planet?  The bird is certianly not free to do that; so
> can we say that the bird is not free to fly?
>
> Of course not, that would be absured.  So free then must mean free within
> the constraints of it's enviroument or it's nature.
>
> When a man reaches a desiscion, yes it is true that such a descions can
> only ever be made within the constraints of the mans nature or enviroment
> or indeed the many veriables effecting such choice, but the question must
> be, is it a choice freely made or somehow forced upon the man?
>
> Yes indeed if we are to belive that our wills are not free then we must
> answer by what power are our choices forced upon us?
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, 30 May 2012 10:09:12 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
> > The will to change ourselves is innate and a part- function of the
> > brain , which being physical is bound by various factors.
>
> > On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > Hey Malcymo,
>
> > > The deterministic argument against freewill has just never done it for
> > me.
> > > It seems to me rather like faith based beliefe, and of course those of
> > you
> > > here that know me would know that I have nothing against such belife and
> > > personaly find it prevalant all round us, heh escpeasily in those who
> > > profess to be without it!
>
> > > The argument goes something like this.
>
> > > You agree that nothing exists without a cause, then each of our choices
> > must
> > > be predetermined upon a cause of which we have little or no knowledge
> > of.
>
> > > It's a huge leap of faith, I mean to declare determinism true without
> > first
> > > pinning down all of these causes.  For if we can find just one counter
> > > example then the whole deal just blows away on the wind.
>
> > > As to where the brain gets it's data, well all around, everything that
> > we
> > > encounter colours our perceptions and our ideas about the world around
> > us,
> > > about how we do, and how we ought to deal with each other, in other
> > words
> > > the building of the 'The Self'.  'Common Sense' shows us that we can in
> > some
> > > ways mold our Selves, in effect act consiously upon the brain to effect
> > > changes inthe brain.  This sure seems akin to freewill to me.
>
> > > On Tuesday, 29 May 2012 20:25:40 UTC+1, malcymo wrote:
>
> > >> Hello each,
>
> > >> I shall be within reach of modern technology again for the next 6
> > >> months when the jungle will call again.
>
> > >> Have read the new posts on this thread with interest and am sensing a
> > >> belief that because the brain makes our choices then they must be
> > >> free.
> > >> But to understand whether our choices are free or not do we not have
> > >> to establish from whence the brain derives the data on which it bases
> > >> its choices??? Is not our behavior largely  based on evolutionary
> > >> successful actions which have proved successful in the past
> > >> (sometimes irrational and instinctive) and only slightly modified by
> > >> rational thought on which you all know my view.
>
> > >> It seems a worry to me that most evolutionary apt behaviours are now
> > >> not adapting quickly enough to be relevant in our present world.
>
> > >> Nice to be back and see the site active.
>
> > >> Malc
>
> > >> On May 18, 9:13 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > You are blessed, Allan, I feel... in having a rather uncomplicated
> > >> > view. Most people are yet to discover that !
>
> > >> > Seriously... the complexities they speak of is more about themselves
> > >> > than of what they speak of. But, peace, dear ones !
>
> > >> > On May 18, 12:01 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> > > Strange Vam ,  I have always seen  more choices, now I also see the
> > >> > > effect
> > >> > > of the choices ..  which leaves only basic first path. I do have
> > >> > > absolute
> > >> > > free will to leave that path any time I chose.. to date I have seen
> > no
> > >> > > one
> > >> > > offer a better path.
> > >> > > On May 18, 2012 7:46 AM, "Vam" <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> > > > " Life is a combination of free will & destiny. More you go deep
> > in
> > >> > > > meditation & align with laws of nature, your free will increases
> > -
> > >> > > > Sri
> > >> > > > Sri "
>
> > >> > > > Just read this quote on Twitter.
>
> > >> > > > On May 10, 2:19 pm, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > > > > Ohhh Molly there is always choice, and we are faced with
> > countless
> > >> > > > > everyday.  Perhaps though the biggest choice is simply " To be"
> > >> > > > >  Or
> > >> > > > indeed
> > >> > > > > to, not be.
>
> > >> > > > > On Monday, 9 January 2012 23:20:58 UTC, Molly wrote:
> > >> > > > > > Perhaps, gabby.  But at this point in my life, for me, there
> > is
> > >> > > > > > no
> > >> > > > > > other choice.  So is it really a choice?
>
> > >> > > > > > On Jan 9, 6:14 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > Oh Molly, I believe you are more than the box you come in,
> > >> > > > > > > too! I
> > >> > > > > > > believe you choose to want to feel lovely at each moment,
> > >> > > > > > > feeling
> > >> > > > > > > alive!
>
> > >> > > > > > > On Jan 9, 11:34 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> > > > > > > > We know by recognizing his potentiality and helping him
> > to
> > >> > > > > > > > do the
> > >> > > > > > > > same.  Sometimes, given the box it comes in, this takes
> > an
> > >> > > > > > > > extraordinary amount of love and care.  At some point,
> > >> > > > > > > > choice, like
> > >> > > > > > > > goals and purpose and all the rest, just fall away.  And
> > >> > > > > > > > here we
> > >> > > > are.
> > >> > > > > > > > Relating to those we love.  Feeling the life we've been
> > >> > > > > > > > given.  Ten
> > >> > > > > > > > years ago I would not have imagined myself as I am today.
> >  I
> > >> > > > > > > > am
> > >> > > > here
> > >> > > > > > > > because somewhere along the line I discovered that the
> > best
> > >> > > > > > > > I can
> > >> > > > "do"
> > >> > > > > > > > is express myself with love in each moment, and recognize
> > >> > > > > > > > the same
> > >> > > > in
> > >> > > > > > > > others, whatever the circumstance.  Given that, life
> > >> > > > > > > > unfolds.
>
> > >> > > > > > > > On Jan 9, 3:42 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> > > > > > > > > Some of this take on epistemology can be gleaned by
> > >> > > > > > > > > observing
> > >> > > > what's
> > >> > > > > > > > > around us.  Teenagers are a minefield of such
> > information.
> > >> > > > > > > > >  My
> > >> > > > > > > > > grandson (14) is currently making excuses for not
> > having
> > >> > > > > > > > > enough
> > >> > > > > > baths
> > >> > > > > > > > > and showers along the lines of 'it's my body'.
> > >> > > > > > > > >  Empirically he
> > >> > > > > > stinks.
> > >> > > > > > > > > He's barely noticed how much work gets done around him.
> > >> > > > > > > > >  He can't
> > >> > > > > > keep
> > >> > > > > > > > > his PC free of viruses or use his laptop with enough
> > care
> > >> > > > > > > > > not to
> > >> > > > > > break
> > >> > > > > > > > > the charger lead (etc.).  It has barely dawned on him
> > that
> > >> > > > > > > > > I was
> > >> > > > > > once
> > >> > > > > > > > > his age and that he has never been my age.  He's a good
> > >> > > > > > > > > enough
> > >> > > > lad
> > >> > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > this is all that really matters to me.  He was like an
> > >> > > > > > > > > Irishman
> > >> > > > put
> > >> > > > > > in
> > >> > > > > > > > > a barrel and told to piss in the corner the other day
> > (add
> > >> > > > > > > > > Pole,
> > >> > > > > > > > > Belgian etc. to xenophobic choice).  I gave him a power
> > >> > > > > > > > > lead
> > >> > > > > > straight
> > >> > > > > > > > > from the box and he spent the time trying to fit it to
> > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > socket
> > >> > > > > > with
> > >> > > > > > > > > the insulation packaging left on.  I guess he won't
> > next
> > >> > > > > > > > > time,
> > >> > > > > > though
> > >> > > > > > > > > I proved a slower learner on some such stuff.  It would
> > be
> > >> > > > > > > > > easy
> > >> > > > > > enough
> > >> > > > > > > > > to leave him alone to "develop" into a useless, smelly
> > >> > > > > > > > > nitwit.
> > >> > > >  The
> > >> > > > > > > > > idea is we don't.  How do we know?
>
> > >> > > > > > > > > On Jan 7, 10:34 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > >> > > > > > > > > > I agree with RP that we are looking at complex
> > >> > > > > > > > > > relations.  Lots
> > >> > > > > > has
> > >> > > > > > > > > > been said on Mal's thought - this is a standard\
> > >> > > > > > > > > > example:
>
> > >> > > > > > > > > > "The Darwinian revolution of the nineteenth century
> > >> > > > > > > > > > suggested
> > >> > > > an
> > >> > > > > > > > > > alternative approach first explored by Dewey and the
> > >> > > > pragmatists.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > Human beings, as the products of evolutionary
> > >> > > > > > > > > > development, are
> > >> > > > > > natural
> > >> > > > > > > > > > beings. Their capacities for knowledge and belief are
> > >> > > > > > > > > > also the
>
> ...
>
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