Thursday, January 31, 2019

Re: Mind's Eye Re: Remembrance, Imagination or Dream

When we dream there is a sub-conscious control over the content, also mind is not a screen but the matter which is doing the thinking, awareness is not on a screen but an attribute which is attached to our conscious processes.

On Fri 1 Feb, 2019, 12:27 PM Vam <atewari2007@gmail.com wrote:
If human mind is the screen or a crystal ball, the agent self -- its ideas and memories -- is projected on it. There is choice in imagination and remembrance but dreams are almost always involuntary.

Revolutionaries are as imaginative as they are liars and manipulators. The bid is still to attain the alpha position, whether as cult leaders of a new age papacy, top dogs of their new fields of kingdoms, or kingmakers with power without the responsibility. It all begins with their imagination and what they remember of life about them.

Even most sincere radicals, say, Gandhi or Archbishop of Canterbury a millennium ago, present a call. What follows and actually happens is a madness, usually complicated by the presence of the mobbing agent selfs around them, through whom they must move forward. It almost never brings an end to the slave economy. It chips off but leaves the slavery intact.

Dreaming is a different phenomenon in comparison. It actually tilts the status quo by either accentuating the oppression upon one's soul or allowing one to soar into liberated and happy being. And, one dreams of all things in between, with and without the space-time-species based rules of "reality."

Most people who rail against economic slavery have the image of the economic masters at heart, which they want for themselves. Anarchists are great examples of men who want the means and the opportunities, and the universal freedom to breakdown the rules. They achieve little beyond exponentially adding to the chaos and misery for people all over.

To me, as in my dream, an end to slavery means the freedom and opportunities to tend to beauty, create happier and knowledge nurturing environs, families, marketplaces, fields, schools and colleges. The "real" despair from how things are does not impair the dreamt beauty of future, to usher which I will do everything within my means.

Happily, in India, people are already availing free banking facilities, cheapest internet, transportation, food, education, medicare, gas, public funded crop insurance, minimum agriculture support prices, and are now even talking of universal basic income. There are miles to go...but there is a dream behind what is at work here, exerting hard at not being bogged down by ideological argumentation and at persisting to doing things bit by bit, changing the world in which people live.

Some dreams are so people centred, so filled with beauty, goodness and truth, that they seem God-sent.

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Re: Mind's Eye Fwd: the Athenian Democracy as a dark stain

I searched " ancient republics states of India."

Here is a patient write up...
https://ithihas.wordpress.com/2018/07/23/republican-states-in-ancient-india/

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Remembrance, Imagination or Dream

If human mind is the screen or a crystal ball, the agent self -- its ideas and memories -- is projected on it. There is choice in imagination and remembrance but dreams are almost always involuntary.

Revolutionaries are as imaginative as they are liars and manipulators. The bid is still to attain the alpha position, whether as cult leaders of a new age papacy, top dogs of their new fields of kingdoms, or kingmakers with power without the responsibility. It all begins with their imagination and what they remember of life about them.

Even most sincere radicals, say, Gandhi or Archbishop of Canterbury a millennium ago, present a call. What follows and actually happens is a madness, usually complicated by the presence of the mobbing agent selfs around them, through whom they must move forward. It almost never brings an end to the slave economy. It chips off but leaves the slavery intact.

Dreaming is a different phenomenon in comparison. It actually tilts the status quo by either accentuating the oppression upon one's soul or allowing one to soar into liberated and happy being. And, one dreams of all things in between, with and without the space-time-species based rules of "reality."

Most people who rail against economic slavery have the image of the economic masters at heart, which they want for themselves. Anarchists are great examples of men who want the means and the opportunities, and the universal freedom to breakdown the rules. They achieve little beyond exponentially adding to the chaos and misery for people all over.

To me, as in my dream, an end to slavery means the freedom and opportunities to tend to beauty, create happier and knowledge nurturing environs, families, marketplaces, fields, schools and colleges. The "real" despair from how things are does not impair the dreamt beauty of future, to usher which I will do everything within my means.

Happily, in India, people are already availing free banking facilities, cheapest internet, transportation, food, education, medicare, gas, public funded crop insurance, minimum agriculture support prices, and are now even talking of universal basic income. There are miles to go...but there is a dream behind what is at work here, exerting hard at not being bogged down by ideological argumentation and at persisting to doing things bit by bit, changing the world in which people live.

Some dreams are so people centred, so filled with beauty, goodness and truth, that they seem God-sent.

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: VAM

This last December 5th I passed 39 years of soberiety... probably why brain is fried.��     ��

Do No Harm

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwterry@gmail.com>
To: "\"Minds Eye\"" <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, 01 Feb 2019 6:18 AM
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: VAM

I have a bottle of duty free malt, so chin chin.  Insulin and and dapaflozin to encourage sugar excretion in my daily routine.  Allan is keeping his elixir of life secret!  Cold a miserable here outside.  Test from the West Indies might be some relief if England had any batsmen.  Time to start digging in the potatoes.  Retired now except for writing.

On Thursday, 31 January 2019 04:11:58 UTC, Vam wrote:
My doc says, "Alcohol could kill you." On account of heart condition, which pumps just one fourth... It means, I cannot drink over 1 lt of water in 24 hours.

I felt like slipping in, "Tell me something new, Doc." The T2 diabetes has worsened. The insulin dosage itself is not problematic but it is the body insulin resistance that has increased, needing a doubled dosage of Glacyphage.

Then, finally, it was discovered I have a gall bladder stone that is large. It is interfering most irregularly with both bile discharge and pancreatic output. I can't be operated upon, despite the simple procedure, because the body cannot withstand general aneathesia. Which means : no fat, no milk products.

The levels of creatinine and K- have their inconveniences, and add most food veggies to the no-go list.

Surprisingly, I don't feel so bleak most of the time. Kids are grown ups now, and have stepped up... I have the little pleasures from the company of a neighbourhood kid, who is allowed to barge in by rights. My wife seems to have become more graceful and beautiful, strong and content.

The potted plants have flowered. Green chillies are laden from time to time on a couple of their plants. There is sunshine in every balcony, and that's such pleasure, these cold days.

Lastly, the tablet contributes...to my writing and reading needs. Days frequently seem wondrous and my evening still starts with a 30 ml shot of whiskey. 😉

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: New day

I am beginning to wonder the basic requirements to be a politician is incompetence and greed along with lack of basic morals (requirements for the US)
Occasionally mistakes are made.

Do No Harm

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwterry@gmail.com>
To: "\"Minds Eye\"" <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, 01 Feb 2019 6:23 AM
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: New day

Brexit is a product of idiots.  If it's revealed anything it's that our Parliament is full of incompetents.  We'd be better off outside the Tory south as perhaps three countries inside the EU and leave the south east fending for itself under Queen May.

On Wednesday, 30 January 2019 18:22:32 UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:
It is to discuss the issues of the day.. I personally interested is the different views on Brexit..

Do No Harm

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Remembrance, Imagination or Dream

We still have a slave economy..
Until you have a minimum basic income complete with cost of living ajustments to basic income and minimum wage including salaries there will..be no hope.

Do No Harm

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwterry@gmail.com>
To: "\"Minds Eye\"" <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, 01 Feb 2019 6:11 AM
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Remembrance, Imagination or Dream

The conscious imagination is cluttered with cultural iconography.  How does a slave economy produce the end of slavery?

On Thursday, 31 January 2019 16:04:27 UTC, RP wrote:
On Thursday, January 31, 2019 at 8:44:40 PM UTC+5:30, Vam wrote:
> I stumble upon this page having a discussion that took place in 2010, while searching for my WP blog by my username,
> @ "Conversations With Chris Bernard: What Is Imagination and How Do You Use It?" http://cblegacy.blogspot.com/2010/02/what-is-imagination-and-how-do-you-use.html
>
> Almost all through, an agent self is presumed to whom the remembrance occurs or by whom the imagination is caused.
>
> Is it the case, however infrequent, when a dream occurs without it being caused by the person ? When one begins to envision a displayed sequence in the mind, without it having any connection to one's experience, read, heard, felt or perceived ?

Human mind is very creative, one imagines all sorts of things, sequences without connection to one's experience.

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Mind's Eye Re: New day

Brexit is a product of idiots.  If it's revealed anything it's that our Parliament is full of incompetents.  We'd be better off outside the Tory south as perhaps three countries inside the EU and leave the south east fending for itself under Queen May.

On Wednesday, 30 January 2019 18:22:32 UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:
It is to discuss the issues of the day.. I personally interested is the different views on Brexit..

Do No Harm

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Mind's Eye Re: VAM

I have a bottle of duty free malt, so chin chin.  Insulin and and dapaflozin to encourage sugar excretion in my daily routine.  Allan is keeping his elixir of life secret!  Cold a miserable here outside.  Test from the West Indies might be some relief if England had any batsmen.  Time to start digging in the potatoes.  Retired now except for writing.

On Thursday, 31 January 2019 04:11:58 UTC, Vam wrote:
My doc says, "Alcohol could kill you." On account of heart condition, which pumps just one fourth... It means, I cannot drink over 1 lt of water in 24 hours.

I felt like slipping in, "Tell me something new, Doc." The T2 diabetes has worsened. The insulin dosage itself is not problematic but it is the body insulin resistance that has increased, needing a doubled dosage of Glacyphage.

Then, finally, it was discovered I have a gall bladder stone that is large. It is interfering most irregularly with both bile discharge and pancreatic output. I can't be operated upon, despite the simple procedure, because the body cannot withstand general aneathesia. Which means : no fat, no milk products.

The levels of creatinine and K- have their inconveniences, and add most food veggies to the no-go list.

Surprisingly, I don't feel so bleak most of the time. Kids are grown ups now, and have stepped up... I have the little pleasures from the company of a neighbourhood kid, who is allowed to barge in by rights. My wife seems to have become more graceful and beautiful, strong and content.

The potted plants have flowered. Green chillies are laden from time to time on a couple of their plants. There is sunshine in every balcony, and that's such pleasure, these cold days.

Lastly, the tablet contributes...to my writing and reading needs. Days frequently seem wondrous and my evening still starts with a 30 ml shot of whiskey. 😉

--

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Mind's Eye Re: Remembrance, Imagination or Dream

The conscious imagination is cluttered with cultural iconography.  How does a slave economy produce the end of slavery?

On Thursday, 31 January 2019 16:04:27 UTC, RP wrote:
On Thursday, January 31, 2019 at 8:44:40 PM UTC+5:30, Vam wrote:
> I stumble upon this page having a discussion that took place in 2010, while searching for my WP blog by my username,
> @ "Conversations With Chris Bernard: What Is Imagination and How Do You Use It?" http://cblegacy.blogspot.com/2010/02/what-is-imagination-and-how-do-you-use.html
>
> Almost all through, an agent self is presumed to whom the remembrance occurs or by whom the imagination is caused.
>
> Is it the case, however infrequent, when a dream occurs without it being caused by the person ? When one begins to envision a displayed sequence in the mind, without it having any connection to one's experience, read, heard, felt or perceived ?

Human mind is very creative, one imagines all sorts of things, sequences without connection to one's experience.

--

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Re: Mind's Eye Fwd: the Athenian Democracy as a dark stain

Are there any democracy references this far back Vam?  I'm ;looking for anything that might show these Persian-Greek empires may well have beaten down less avaricious cultures before.

On Thursday, 31 January 2019 04:31:38 UTC, Vam wrote:
( 23 ) A Benediction At The Election Of A King   –    
Atharva Veda : BOOK III : HYMN IV... 6500 BC approx.

O King ! Shine as the lord

The sole ruler of the people.

For, to thee has come the splendour of kingship

Let all regions of the heavens invite thee.


Here, invite the waiting men

And acknowledge each, as they bow before thee.

 
O King ! The clansmen have elected thee.

These five celestial regions have elected thee.

Rest thou on high, on top of this power supreme.

Thence, as a mightiest amongst us

Award us all with the treasure of your great deeds.

 
O King ! The kinsmen shall now invite thee

And thou shall go to meet them.

But with thee shall go Agni, as an active herald.


Let women have your good in their heart

And their sons be friendly, disposed well towards you.

Thou, O Mighty One, shalt receive tributes in abundance.

 
First the Asvins, Varuna and Mitra…

Then, the Universal Gods and Maruts shall call thee.

Thence, O Mighty One, direct thy thought

To spreading the wealth …

To giving the gifts of your treasure to us all.

 
Speed to us hither from the farthest distance.

Propitious unto thee be the Earth and Heaven.

Even so hath Varuna, the Lord, asserted…

He himself has called thee : Come thou hither.

 
Welcome to the tribes of men, O Indra !

O Indra, Varuna deems thou accordant.

To his own place has he called thee

Saying, "Let him adore the Gods.

"Let him guide the clansmen."

 
The bounteous paths, O King, all in concert

Have given thee room and comfort

In sundry places and forms.

Let all of these call thee hither

In unison and harmony.


Live thy tenth decade here, O King.

Be a strong and kind ruler.

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Mind's Eye Re: Remembrance, Imagination or Dream

On Thursday, January 31, 2019 at 8:44:40 PM UTC+5:30, Vam wrote:
> I stumble upon this page having a discussion that took place in 2010, while searching for my WP blog by my username,
> @ "Conversations With Chris Bernard: What Is Imagination and How Do You Use It?" http://cblegacy.blogspot.com/2010/02/what-is-imagination-and-how-do-you-use.html
>
> Almost all through, an agent self is presumed to whom the remembrance occurs or by whom the imagination is caused.
>
> Is it the case, however infrequent, when a dream occurs without it being caused by the person ? When one begins to envision a displayed sequence in the mind, without it having any connection to one's experience, read, heard, felt or perceived ?

Human mind is very creative, one imagines all sorts of things, sequences without connection to one's experience.

--

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Mind's Eye Remembrance, Imagination or Dream

I stumble upon this page having a discussion that took place in 2010, while searching for my WP blog by my username,
@ "Conversations With Chris Bernard: What Is Imagination and How Do You Use It?" http://cblegacy.blogspot.com/2010/02/what-is-imagination-and-how-do-you-use.html

Almost all through, an agent self is presumed to whom the remembrance occurs or by whom the imagination is caused.

Is it the case, however infrequent, when a dream occurs without it being caused by the person ? When one begins to envision a displayed sequence in the mind, without it having any connection to one's experience, read, heard, felt or perceived ?

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Re: Mind's Eye VAM

God bless, Allan.

And thank you for the good wishes.

Being at a loss for words is the best in certain situations.

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Re: Mind's Eye VAM

Well Vam, in comparison to you, I am in perfect health..�� other than having discovered a sever addiction to jazz and a pharmacy  in my kitchen ...  I was fortunate as the Doctors discovered my arythma early and the onset of epilepsy..  and it returned  oh well you know what is said some people walk to the beat of  a different drummer. Some times I feel better than others. I am lucky to have some very good Doctors.
Operations terrifying to me. I hope everything goes well for you and I do hope your health improves. Actually I am at a loss for words.. that is weird.
Your friend Allan



Do No Harm

-----Original Message-----
From: Vam <atewari2007@gmail.com>
To: "\"Minds Eye\"" <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 5:12 AM
Subject: Mind's Eye VAM

My doc says, "Alcohol could kill you." On account of heart condition, which pumps just one fourth... It means, I cannot drink over 1 lt of water in 24 hours.

I felt like slipping in, "Tell me something new, Doc." The T2 diabetes has worsened. The insulin dosage itself is not problematic but it is the body insulin resistance that has increased, needing a doubled dosage of Glacyphage.

Then, finally, it was discovered I have a gall bladder stone that is large. It is interfering most irregularly with both bile discharge and pancreatic output. I can't be operated upon, despite the simple procedure, because the body cannot withstand general aneathesia. Which means : no fat, no milk products.

The levels of creatinine and K- have their inconveniences, and add most food veggies to the no-go list.

Surprisingly, I don't feel so bleak most of the time. Kids are grown ups now, and have stepped up... I have the little pleasures from the company of a neighbourhood kid, who is allowed to barge in by rights. My wife seems to have become more graceful and beautiful, strong and content.

The potted plants have flowered. Green chillies are laden from time to time on a couple of their plants. There is sunshine in every balcony, and that's such pleasure, these cold days.

Lastly, the tablet contributes...to my writing and reading needs. Days frequently seem wondrous and my evening still starts with a 30 ml shot of whiskey. ��

--

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Wednesday, January 30, 2019

Re: Mind's Eye Fwd: the Athenian Democracy as a dark stain

( 23 ) A Benediction At The Election Of A King –
Atharva Veda : BOOK III : HYMN IV... 6500 BC approx.

O King ! Shine as the lord

The sole ruler of the people.

For, to thee has come the splendour of kingship

Let all regions of the heavens invite thee.


Here, invite the waiting men

And acknowledge each, as they bow before thee.


O King ! The clansmen have elected thee.

These five celestial regions have elected thee.

Rest thou on high, on top of this power supreme.

Thence, as a mightiest amongst us

Award us all with the treasure of your great deeds.


O King ! The kinsmen shall now invite thee

And thou shall go to meet them.

But with thee shall go Agni, as an active herald.


Let women have your good in their heart

And their sons be friendly, disposed well towards you.

Thou, O Mighty One, shalt receive tributes in abundance.


First the Asvins, Varuna and Mitra…

Then, the Universal Gods and Maruts shall call thee.

Thence, O Mighty One, direct thy thought

To spreading the wealth …

To giving the gifts of your treasure to us all.


Speed to us hither from the farthest distance.

Propitious unto thee be the Earth and Heaven.

Even so hath Varuna, the Lord, asserted…

He himself has called thee : Come thou hither.


Welcome to the tribes of men, O Indra !

O Indra, Varuna deems thou accordant.

To his own place has he called thee

Saying, "Let him adore the Gods.

"Let him guide the clansmen."


The bounteous paths, O King, all in concert

Have given thee room and comfort

In sundry places and forms.

Let all of these call thee hither

In unison and harmony.


Live thy tenth decade here, O King.

Be a strong and kind ruler.

--

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Mind's Eye VAM

My doc says, "Alcohol could kill you." On account of heart condition, which pumps just one fourth... It means, I cannot drink over 1 lt of water in 24 hours.

I felt like slipping in, "Tell me something new, Doc." The T2 diabetes has worsened. The insulin dosage itself is not problematic but it is the body insulin resistance that has increased, needing a doubled dosage of Glacyphage.

Then, finally, it was discovered I have a gall bladder stone that is large. It is interfering most irregularly with both bile discharge and pancreatic output. I can't be operated upon, despite the simple procedure, because the body cannot withstand general aneathesia. Which means : no fat, no milk products.

The levels of creatinine and K- have their inconveniences, and add most food veggies to the no-go list.

Surprisingly, I don't feel so bleak most of the time. Kids are grown ups now, and have stepped up... I have the little pleasures from the company of a neighbourhood kid, who is allowed to barge in by rights. My wife seems to have become more graceful and beautiful, strong and content.

The potted plants have flowered. Green chillies are laden from time to time on a couple of their plants. There is sunshine in every balcony, and that's such pleasure, these cold days.

Lastly, the tablet contributes...to my writing and reading needs. Days frequently seem wondrous and my evening still starts with a 30 ml shot of whiskey. 😉

--

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Choice

Personally I don't think God has lost the gunfight. He has never really been in the battle except in  peoples imagination. This reality as I understand it is for learning to live in harmony balance with the rest of the universe. All though the body returns to the earth from where it originated the soul continues on the same path we  are on now.
Over the centuries we have been given guidelines, the oldest I know is ' do no harm ' ,, God provided a couple of tablets with basic rules to follow, to which the Jewish added several hundred more laws claiming they were from God so they could control and tax the people better.. and justify any activity they want and blaming it on God. Making it appear that God is viciously and hateful. Losing the fight..  how can you lose a fight you were not part of?


Do No Harm

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwterry@gmail.com>
To: "\"Minds Eye\"" <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 2:52 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Choice

I think the gods lost the gunfight.  Biology is at the bottom of a lot of our problems.  Existentially we might have pondered quite how a benevolent god dropped us in this mess.  These days we know we need a green world in radical peace and who we need to 'battle' to achieve one.

On Wednesday, 30 January 2019 20:28:14 UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:
I think the images of God are so distorted today doing away with God might be reasonable. It seems many people only want God to be their personal servant at their beck and call filling their desire.
I don't understand the spirituality they are promoting.

Do No Harm

-----Original Message-----
From: Vam <atewari2007@gmail.com>
To: "\"Minds Eye\"" <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 7:14 PM
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Choice

Maybe it is time to do away with "God," at least by those who focus on their abilities and work to extend the limitations upon.

It is enough if we happily play our role as an energy node that, with patience and perseverance, can make good things happen. That is, more or less.

One of the primary "good" thing is raise oneself and one's family well, aware of their power to choose and persist.

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Choice

I think the gods lost the gunfight.  Biology is at the bottom of a lot of our problems.  Existentially we might have pondered quite how a benevolent god dropped us in this mess.  These days we know we need a green world in radical peace and who we need to 'battle' to achieve one.

On Wednesday, 30 January 2019 20:28:14 UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:
I think the images of God are so distorted today doing away with God might be reasonable. It seems many people only want God to be their personal servant at their beck and call filling their desire.
I don't understand the spirituality they are promoting.

Do No Harm

-----Original Message-----
From: Vam <atewari2007@gmail.com>
To: "\"Minds Eye\"" <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 7:14 PM
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Choice

Maybe it is time to do away with "God," at least by those who focus on their abilities and work to extend the limitations upon.

It is enough if we happily play our role as an energy node that, with patience and perseverance, can make good things happen. That is, more or less.

One of the primary "good" thing is raise oneself and one's family well, aware of their power to choose and persist.

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Mind's Eye VAM

I have ensured your posts don't need moderating and hopefully you should be able to moderate others (let them join, post, ban etc.).  Still have the odd peach vodka?  I'm almost TT these days.
Neil

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Mind's Eye Re: the Athenian Democracy as a dark stain

You old sweetie Allan.

On Wednesday, 30 January 2019 10:40:08 UTC, archytas wrote:
I don't do history.  Recently, I've been writing a book that starts out in 492 BCE and the voyage of the Persian, Mardonius, sailing the Mediterranean creating democratic government in Ionia, replacing tyrants.  My broad case is that democracy was well-known in the Achaemenid Empire and was always really a form of participative management - rule by rhetoric under a myth of freedom.  The Greeks were slavers, sexist, racist and generally unpleasant.  The real structure of democracy was always rule by aristocrats and the only people 'free' were these toffs.  It all looks a bit like Magna Carta where the freemen were very few in number.  I want to link this 'Dark Athens' to the modern day and our current denial of genuine rule of ourselves through new structures of language and institutions possible through new technologies. 

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Re: Mind's Eye Fwd: the Athenian Democracy as a dark stain

I find few people who know what democracy is or its roots.  I have it arising in Mesopotamia and already a participative management strategy in the Achaemenid Empire before Athen's constitution around 510 BCE.  The education thing has failed.  Back in the Greek writings they have no shame in desiring to purchase slaves to support themselves.  They commit genocides and are swayed by dismal populists just as we are.  My suspicion is not much has changed and it might have been better had Persians won the battles for Western civilisation.  No one living in Britain could think our democracy responsive in our Brexit farce.  Plato was no democrat and died with 5 slaves and left many books in societies perfect for Greek toffs like - er - Plato.  These were the Republic and Magnesia.  My story starts in 492 BCE with the voyage of Mardonius, a Persian, overthrowing Greek tyrannies in Ionia (Turkey) and replacing them with democratic governments. 

On Thursday, 31 January 2019 00:38:13 UTC, channe wrote:
Let me agree to disagree?  democracy is both participative and responsive governance but, "IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE LEVEL OF EDUCATION OF THE CITIZEN" less educated people ruin the concept of the much-loved Plato 

On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 8:34 PM <allanh1946@gmail.com> wrote:


Do No Harm

-----Original Message-----
From: Vam <atewari2007@gmail.com>
To: "\"Minds Eye\"" <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 4:01 PM
Subject: the Athenian Democracy as a dark stain

Does "real democracy" mean responsive governance ?
Or, participative ?

I find democracy, as a system, still beset with the same problems that Plato highlights. Yet, its prsctice today has the sanction of our historical evolution. The problem is essentially rooted in human nature, while handling power and authority to rule.

Technology can certainly help ... But the real crux is in human character : will it always choose right, when it has the power to have his way.

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Re: Mind's Eye Fwd: the Athenian Democracy as a dark stain



Do No Harm

-----Original Message-----
From: Konara Abeyrathne <konaraa@gmail.com>
To: minds-eye@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 1:38 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Fwd: the Athenian Democracy as a dark stain

Let me agree to disagree?  democracy is both participative and responsive governance but, "IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE LEVEL OF EDUCATION OF THE CITIZEN" less educated people ruin the concept of the much-loved Plato 

On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 8:34 PM <allanh1946@gmail.com> wrote:


Do No Harm

-----Original Message-----
From: Vam <atewari2007@gmail.com>
To: "\"Minds Eye\"" <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 4:01 PM
Subject: the Athenian Democracy as a dark stain

Does "real democracy" mean responsive governance ?
Or, participative ?

I find democracy, as a system, still beset with the same problems that Plato highlights. Yet, its prsctice today has the sanction of our historical evolution. The problem is essentially rooted in human nature, while handling power and authority to rule.

Technology can certainly help ... But the real crux is in human character : will it always choose right, when it has the power to have his way.

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Re: Mind's Eye Fwd: the Athenian Democracy as a dark stain

Let me agree to disagree?  democracy is both participative and responsive governance but, "IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE LEVEL OF EDUCATION OF THE CITIZEN" less educated people ruin the concept of the much-loved Plato 

On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 8:34 PM <allanh1946@gmail.com> wrote:


Do No Harm

-----Original Message-----
From: Vam <atewari2007@gmail.com>
To: "\"Minds Eye\"" <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 4:01 PM
Subject: the Athenian Democracy as a dark stain

Does "real democracy" mean responsive governance ?
Or, participative ?

I find democracy, as a system, still beset with the same problems that Plato highlights. Yet, its prsctice today has the sanction of our historical evolution. The problem is essentially rooted in human nature, while handling power and authority to rule.

Technology can certainly help ... But the real crux is in human character : will it always choose right, when it has the power to have his way.

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Mind's Eye New day...Brexit

Is Juncker, the EU boss, elected ?

Brexit, and several other separatist pressures, could be read alongwith that basic undemocratic anomaly.

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Choice

I think the images of God are so distorted today doing away with God might be reasonable. It seems many people only want God to be their personal servant at their beck and call filling their desire.
I don't understand the spirituality they are promoting.

Do No Harm

-----Original Message-----
From: Vam <atewari2007@gmail.com>
To: "\"Minds Eye\"" <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 7:14 PM
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Choice

Maybe it is time to do away with "God," at least by those who focus on their abilities and work to extend the limitations upon.

It is enough if we happily play our role as an energy node that, with patience and perseverance, can make good things happen. That is, more or less.

One of the primary "good" thing is raise oneself and one's family well, aware of their power to choose and persist.

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Re: Mind's Eye the Athenian Democracy as a dark stain

I tend to agree .. the toffs �� (needed to look up the meaning) I personally have no real desire to rule anyone,  I like the idea put out that the boss needs to be the servant of all or that is the way I read it in  the New Testament..  but it seems the US Evangelical leader have different ideas about that.

Do No Harm

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwterry@gmail.com>
To: "\"Minds Eye\"" <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 11:40 AM
Subject: Mind's Eye the Athenian Democracy as a dark stain

I don't do history.  Recently, I've been writing a book that starts out in 492 BCE and the voyage of the Persian, Mardonius, sailing the Mediterranean creating democratic government in Ionia, replacing tyrants.  My broad case is that democracy was well-known in the Achaemenid Empire and was always really a form of participative management - rule by rhetoric under a myth of freedom.  The Greeks were slavers, sexist, racist and generally unpleasant.  The real structure of democracy was always rule by aristocrats and the only people 'free' were these toffs.  It all looks a bit like Magna Carta where the freemen were very few in number.  I want to link this 'Dark Athens' to the modern day and our current denial of genuine rule of ourselves through new structures of language and institutions possible through new technologies. 

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Mind's Eye New day

It is to discuss the issues of the day.. I personally interested is the different views on Brexit..

Do No Harm

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Mind's Eye Re: Choice

Maybe it is time to do away with "God," at least by those who focus on their abilities and work to extend the limitations upon.

It is enough if we happily play our role as an energy node that, with patience and perseverance, can make good things happen. That is, more or less.

One of the primary "good" thing is raise oneself and one's family well, aware of their power to choose and persist.

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Mind's Eye Fwd: the Athenian Democracy as a dark stain



Do No Harm

-----Original Message-----
From: Vam <atewari2007@gmail.com>
To: "\"Minds Eye\"" <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 4:01 PM
Subject: the Athenian Democracy as a dark stain

Does "real democracy" mean responsive governance ?
Or, participative ?

I find democracy, as a system, still beset with the same problems that Plato highlights. Yet, its prsctice today has the sanction of our historical evolution. The problem is essentially rooted in human nature, while handling power and authority to rule.

Technology can certainly help ... But the real crux is in human character : will it always choose right, when it has the power to have his way.

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Mind's Eye the Athenian Democracy as a dark stain

Does "real democracy" mean responsive governance ?
Or, participative ?

I find democracy, as a system, still beset with the same problems that Plato highlights. Yet, its prsctice today has the sanction of our historical evolution. The problem is essentially rooted in human nature, while handling power and authority to rule.

Technology can certainly help ... But the real crux is in human character : will it always choose right, when it has the power to have his way.

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Re: Mind's Eye the management

How do I approve a message?
Allan

Do No Harm

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwterry@gmail.com>
To: "\"Minds Eye\"" <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 11:28 AM
Subject: Mind's Eye the management

If we do get back together it would be good to spread the management expertise.  I've started with Allan as he was always the "worst trouble-maker" and a good friend to most of us.  On these grounds Vam must be next - he once threatened to squeeze certain bits of my private anatomy until they turned black.  Don was always good riding shotgun.  The who of this isn't important.  Changes can be undone.  The idea is no more than the hope of some decent and provocative exchanges.

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Mind's Eye the management

This was good recall...bringing out the intensity of discourse.

I also remember with huge respect the moderators then...and the members' spirit that frequently took discussions to boil.

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Re: Mind's Eye the management

Very interesting..
Interesting maintenance of the group..  my personal opinion hopefully will not interfere.

Do No Harm

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwterry@gmail.com>
To: "\"Minds Eye\"" <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 11:28 AM
Subject: Mind's Eye the management

If we do get back together it would be good to spread the management expertise.  I've started with Allan as he was always the "worst trouble-maker" and a good friend to most of us.  On these grounds Vam must be next - he once threatened to squeeze certain bits of my private anatomy until they turned black.  Don was always good riding shotgun.  The who of this isn't important.  Changes can be undone.  The idea is no more than the hope of some decent and provocative exchanges.

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Hello

I think Google stopped maintenance on this part of the system. Faded memories

Do No Harm

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwterry@gmail.com>
To: "\"Minds Eye\"" <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Hello

I am thinking of the Declaration of Arbroath - while 100 of us are still alive the English shall never rule us.  Perhaps our small band should ride again in some gesture to freedom?  And all take moderator (manager) roles.  I've started with Allan to see if I have the "power" to do this.  Some years back Molly and I were joint 'owners' but there was some kind of explosion at Google that screwed this up.  The issue is really only about keeping out trolls and having enough people to allow first posts, approve members and keep some semblance of civility.  Yes Vam I am now old.  

On Wednesday, 30 January 2019 09:52:44 UTC, Richard wrote:
Allan, I don't know if I'm the youngest here. But I became a father last year. I think Gabby is on fb, so is Andrew.
You were on my friendlist but I can't find you anymore. Coming back will be great. Recently in Ghana we are faced with kidnapping saga. 

On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 8:45 pm Allan H, <allanh1946@gmail.com> wrote:
Click...


On Tue, 29 Jan 2019, 9:00 PM archytas <nwterry@gmail.com wrote:
It would be good to see everyone back.  Lock and load Don!

On Monday, 28 January 2019 22:31:29 UTC, Vam wrote:
It is possibly 8 or 9 years since I quit the Group.

In the meantime I blogged, made use of FB and Twitter, and wrote on matters I wanted to put out in the public domain.

Why did I rejoin ?

I am not sure. The next few weeks will show up that purpose to me. i fact, very frankly, I was surprised to find that it still exists !

One thing sets me thinking : why isn't this well moderated Group not promoted through member accounts on other social media platforms ?

Ah, well : Hello, Everybody !

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Re: Mind's Eye hello all

I for one appreciate the effort.

Do No Harm

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwterry@gmail.com>
To: "\"Minds Eye\"" <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye hello all

I have just promoted (if this is the right term) to manager.  Welcome to the madhouse.  You should now be able to do whatever I can.

On Tuesday, 29 January 2019 23:23:56 UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:
Is it possible to have my minds-eye account set back to deheretic@gmail.com?
I would appreciate it.
Allan


On Tue, 29 Jan 2019, 9:05 PM archytas <nwterry@gmail.com wrote:
I can still moderate Allan - but it doesn't seem to be the case that I can create new mods.

On Tuesday, 29 January 2019 08:55:31 UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:
I know the mailing list still works.. personally I miss minds-eye ..  Molly should know the status,
If a person is needed to handle the paperwork.  I can do that I am retired and have the time.
Allan

On Mon, 28 Jan 2019, 11:34 PM archytas <nwterry@gmail.com wrote:
I have been attracted back by a message from my old friend Vam.  Not sure if the group tech still works at this stage.

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Hello

I am under

 deheretic@gmail.com

No big deal

Do No Harm

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Blay <richsun.b@gmail.com>
To: minds-eye@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Hello

Allan, I don't know if I'm the youngest here. But I became a father last year. I think Gabby is on fb, so is Andrew.
You were on my friendlist but I can't find you anymore. Coming back will be great. Recently in Ghana we are faced with kidnapping saga. 

On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 8:45 pm Allan H, <allanh1946@gmail.com> wrote:
Click...


On Tue, 29 Jan 2019, 9:00 PM archytas <nwterry@gmail.com wrote:
It would be good to see everyone back.  Lock and load Don!

On Monday, 28 January 2019 22:31:29 UTC, Vam wrote:
It is possibly 8 or 9 years since I quit the Group.

In the meantime I blogged, made use of FB and Twitter, and wrote on matters I wanted to put out in the public domain.

Why did I rejoin ?

I am not sure. The next few weeks will show up that purpose to me. i fact, very frankly, I was surprised to find that it still exists !

One thing sets me thinking : why isn't this well moderated Group not promoted through member accounts on other social media platforms ?

Ah, well : Hello, Everybody !

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Mind's Eye the Athenian Democracy as a dark stain

I don't do history.  Recently, I've been writing a book that starts out in 492 BCE and the voyage of the Persian, Mardonius, sailing the Mediterranean creating democratic government in Ionia, replacing tyrants.  My broad case is that democracy was well-known in the Achaemenid Empire and was always really a form of participative management - rule by rhetoric under a myth of freedom.  The Greeks were slavers, sexist, racist and generally unpleasant.  The real structure of democracy was always rule by aristocrats and the only people 'free' were these toffs.  It all looks a bit like Magna Carta where the freemen were very few in number.  I want to link this 'Dark Athens' to the modern day and our current denial of genuine rule of ourselves through new structures of language and institutions possible through new technologies. 

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Mind's Eye the management

If we do get back together it would be good to spread the management expertise.  I've started with Allan as he was always the "worst trouble-maker" and a good friend to most of us.  On these grounds Vam must be next - he once threatened to squeeze certain bits of my private anatomy until they turned black.  Don was always good riding shotgun.  The who of this isn't important.  Changes can be undone.  The idea is no more than the hope of some decent and provocative exchanges.

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Hello

I am thinking of the Declaration of Arbroath - while 100 of us are still alive the English shall never rule us.  Perhaps our small band should ride again in some gesture to freedom?  And all take moderator (manager) roles.  I've started with Allan to see if I have the "power" to do this.  Some years back Molly and I were joint 'owners' but there was some kind of explosion at Google that screwed this up.  The issue is really only about keeping out trolls and having enough people to allow first posts, approve members and keep some semblance of civility.  Yes Vam I am now old.  

On Wednesday, 30 January 2019 09:52:44 UTC, Richard wrote:
Allan, I don't know if I'm the youngest here. But I became a father last year. I think Gabby is on fb, so is Andrew.
You were on my friendlist but I can't find you anymore. Coming back will be great. Recently in Ghana we are faced with kidnapping saga. 

On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 8:45 pm Allan H, <allanh1946@gmail.com> wrote:
Click...


On Tue, 29 Jan 2019, 9:00 PM archytas <nwterry@gmail.com wrote:
It would be good to see everyone back.  Lock and load Don!

On Monday, 28 January 2019 22:31:29 UTC, Vam wrote:
It is possibly 8 or 9 years since I quit the Group.

In the meantime I blogged, made use of FB and Twitter, and wrote on matters I wanted to put out in the public domain.

Why did I rejoin ?

I am not sure. The next few weeks will show up that purpose to me. i fact, very frankly, I was surprised to find that it still exists !

One thing sets me thinking : why isn't this well moderated Group not promoted through member accounts on other social media platforms ?

Ah, well : Hello, Everybody !

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Re: Mind's Eye hello all

I have just promoted (if this is the right term) to manager.  Welcome to the madhouse.  You should now be able to do whatever I can.

On Tuesday, 29 January 2019 23:23:56 UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:
Is it possible to have my minds-eye account set back to deheretic@gmail.com?
I would appreciate it.
Allan


On Tue, 29 Jan 2019, 9:05 PM archytas <nwterry@gmail.com wrote:
I can still moderate Allan - but it doesn't seem to be the case that I can create new mods.

On Tuesday, 29 January 2019 08:55:31 UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:
I know the mailing list still works.. personally I miss minds-eye ..  Molly should know the status,
If a person is needed to handle the paperwork.  I can do that I am retired and have the time.
Allan

On Mon, 28 Jan 2019, 11:34 PM archytas <nwterry@gmail.com wrote:
I have been attracted back by a message from my old friend Vam.  Not sure if the group tech still works at this stage.

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Hello

Allan, I don't know if I'm the youngest here. But I became a father last year. I think Gabby is on fb, so is Andrew.
You were on my friendlist but I can't find you anymore. Coming back will be great. Recently in Ghana we are faced with kidnapping saga. 

On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 8:45 pm Allan H, <allanh1946@gmail.com> wrote:
Click...


On Tue, 29 Jan 2019, 9:00 PM archytas <nwterry@gmail.com wrote:
It would be good to see everyone back.  Lock and load Don!

On Monday, 28 January 2019 22:31:29 UTC, Vam wrote:
It is possibly 8 or 9 years since I quit the Group.

In the meantime I blogged, made use of FB and Twitter, and wrote on matters I wanted to put out in the public domain.

Why did I rejoin ?

I am not sure. The next few weeks will show up that purpose to me. i fact, very frankly, I was surprised to find that it still exists !

One thing sets me thinking : why isn't this well moderated Group not promoted through member accounts on other social media platforms ?

Ah, well : Hello, Everybody !

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