Re: Mind's Eye Freewill - A useful myth?

If the brain gets its data from experience then is it not the case
that its choices are made as a result of manipulating that data either
rationally or emotionally ( The way our ancestors survived)? Does
this not mean that are choices are limited by our experiences and
genes and hence in a sense predetermined?

Anyway I dont want to think about it too much just prefering to be and
do.

On May 30, 8:54 pm, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Malcymo,
>
> The deterministic argument against freewill has just never done it for me.
> It seems to me rather like faith based beliefe, and of course those of you
> here that know me would know that I have nothing against such belife and
> personaly find it prevalant all round us, heh escpeasily in those who
> profess to be without it!
>
> The argument goes something like this.
>
> You agree that nothing exists without a cause, then each of our choices
> must be predetermined upon a cause of which we have little or no knowledge
> of.
>
> It's a huge leap of faith, I mean to declare determinism true without first
> pinning down all of these causes.  For if we can find just one counter
> example then the whole deal just blows away on the wind.
>
> As to where the brain gets it's data, well all around, everything that we
> encounter colours our perceptions and our ideas about the world around us,
> about how we do, and how we ought to deal with each other, in other words
> the building of the 'The Self'.  'Common Sense' shows us that we can in
> some ways mold our Selves, in effect act consiously upon the brain to
> effect changes inthe brain.  This sure seems akin to freewill to me.
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, 29 May 2012 20:25:40 UTC+1, malcymo wrote:
> > Hello each,
>
> > I shall be within reach of modern technology again for the next 6
> > months when the jungle will call again.
>
> > Have read the new posts on this thread with interest and am sensing a
> > belief that because the brain makes our choices then they must be
> > free.
> > But to understand whether our choices are free or not do we not have
> > to establish from whence the brain derives the data on which it bases
> > its choices??? Is not our behavior largely  based on evolutionary
> > successful actions which have proved successful in the past
> > (sometimes irrational and instinctive) and only slightly modified by
> > rational thought on which you all know my view.
>
> > It seems a worry to me that most evolutionary apt behaviours are now
> > not adapting quickly enough to be relevant in our present world.
>
> > Nice to be back and see the site active.
>
> > Malc
>
> > On May 18, 9:13 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > You are blessed, Allan, I feel... in having a rather uncomplicated
> > > view. Most people are yet to discover that !
>
> > > Seriously... the complexities they speak of is more about themselves
> > > than of what they speak of. But, peace, dear ones !
>
> > > On May 18, 12:01 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Strange Vam ,  I have always seen  more choices, now I also see the
> > effect
> > > > of the choices ..  which leaves only basic first path. I do have
> > absolute
> > > > free will to leave that path any time I chose.. to date I have seen no
> > one
> > > > offer a better path.
> > > > On May 18, 2012 7:46 AM, "Vam" <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > " Life is a combination of free will & destiny. More you go deep in
> > > > > meditation & align with laws of nature, your free will increases -
> > Sri
> > > > > Sri "
>
> > > > > Just read this quote on Twitter.
>
> > > > > On May 10, 2:19 pm, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > Ohhh Molly there is always choice, and we are faced with countless
> > > > > > everyday.  Perhaps though the biggest choice is simply " To be"
> >  Or
> > > > > indeed
> > > > > > to, not be.
>
> > > > > > On Monday, 9 January 2012 23:20:58 UTC, Molly wrote:
> > > > > > > Perhaps, gabby.  But at this point in my life, for me, there is
> > no
> > > > > > > other choice.  So is it really a choice?
>
> > > > > > > On Jan 9, 6:14 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > Oh Molly, I believe you are more than the box you come in,
> > too! I
> > > > > > > > believe you choose to want to feel lovely at each moment,
> > feeling
> > > > > > > > alive!
>
> > > > > > > > On Jan 9, 11:34 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > We know by recognizing his potentiality and helping him to
> > do the
> > > > > > > > > same.  Sometimes, given the box it comes in, this takes an
> > > > > > > > > extraordinary amount of love and care.  At some point,
> > choice, like
> > > > > > > > > goals and purpose and all the rest, just fall away.  And
> > here we
> > > > > are.
> > > > > > > > > Relating to those we love.  Feeling the life we've been
> > given.  Ten
> > > > > > > > > years ago I would not have imagined myself as I am today.  I
> > am
> > > > > here
> > > > > > > > > because somewhere along the line I discovered that the best
> > I can
> > > > > "do"
> > > > > > > > > is express myself with love in each moment, and recognize
> > the same
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > others, whatever the circumstance.  Given that, life
> > unfolds.
>
> > > > > > > > > On Jan 9, 3:42 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > Some of this take on epistemology can be gleaned by
> > observing
> > > > > what's
> > > > > > > > > > around us.  Teenagers are a minefield of such information.
> >  My
> > > > > > > > > > grandson (14) is currently making excuses for not having
> > enough
> > > > > > > baths
> > > > > > > > > > and showers along the lines of 'it's my body'.
> >  Empirically he
> > > > > > > stinks.
> > > > > > > > > > He's barely noticed how much work gets done around him.
> >  He can't
> > > > > > > keep
> > > > > > > > > > his PC free of viruses or use his laptop with enough care
> > not to
> > > > > > > break
> > > > > > > > > > the charger lead (etc.).  It has barely dawned on him that
> > I was
> > > > > > > once
> > > > > > > > > > his age and that he has never been my age.  He's a good
> > enough
> > > > > lad
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > this is all that really matters to me.  He was like an
> > Irishman
> > > > > put
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > a barrel and told to piss in the corner the other day (add
> > Pole,
> > > > > > > > > > Belgian etc. to xenophobic choice).  I gave him a power
> > lead
> > > > > > > straight
> > > > > > > > > > from the box and he spent the time trying to fit it to the
> > socket
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > the insulation packaging left on.  I guess he won't next
> > time,
> > > > > > > though
> > > > > > > > > > I proved a slower learner on some such stuff.  It would be
> > easy
> > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > > > > to leave him alone to "develop" into a useless, smelly
> > nitwit.
> > > > >  The
> > > > > > > > > > idea is we don't.  How do we know?
>
> > > > > > > > > > On Jan 7, 10:34 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > I agree with RP that we are looking at complex
> > relations.  Lots
> > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > > > been said on Mal's thought - this is a standard\
> > example:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > "The Darwinian revolution of the nineteenth century
> > suggested
> > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > alternative approach first explored by Dewey and the
> > > > > pragmatists.
> > > > > > > > > > > Human beings, as the products of evolutionary
> > development, are
> > > > > > > natural
> > > > > > > > > > > beings. Their capacities for knowledge and belief are
> > also the
> > > > > > > > > > > products of a natural evolutionary development. As such,
> > there
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > reason to suspect that knowing, as a natural activity,
> > could
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > should be treated and analyzed along lines compatible
> > with its
> > > > > > > status,
> > > > > > > > > > > i. e., by the methods of natural science. On this view,
> > there
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > sharp division of labor between science and
> > epistemology. In
> > > > > > > > > > > particular, the results of particular sciences such as
> > > > > > > evolutionary
> > > > > > > > > > > biology and psychology are not ruled a priori irrelevant
> > to the
> > > > > > > > > > > solution of epistemological problems. Such approaches,
> > in
> > > > > general,
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > called naturalistic epistemologies, whether they are
> > directly
> > > > > > > > > > > motivated by evolutionary considerations or not. Those
> > which
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > directly motivated by evolutionary considerations and
> > which
> > > > > argue
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > the growth of knowledge follows the pattern of evolution
> > in
> > > > > > > biology
> > > > > > > > > > > are called "evolutionary epistemologies."
>
> > > > > > > > > > > Evolutionary epistemology is the attempt to address
> > questions
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > theory of knowledge from an evolutionary point of view.
> > > > > > > Evolutionary
> > > > > > > > > > > epistemology involves, in part, deploying models and
> > metaphors
> > > > > > > drawn
> > > > > > > > > > > from evolutionary biology in the attempt to characterize
> > and
> > > > > > > resolve
> > > > > > > > > > > issues arising in epistemology and conceptual change. As
> > > > > > > disciplines
> > > > > > > > > > > co-evolve, models are traded back and forth. Thus,
> > evolutionary
> > > > > > > > > > > epistemology also involves attempts to understand how
> > > > > biological
> > > > > > > > > > > evolution proceeds by interpreting it through models
> > drawn from
> > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > > > > understanding of conceptual change and the development
> > of
> > > > > > > theories.
> > > > > > > > > > > The term "evolutionary epistemology" was coined by
> > Donald
> > > > > Campbell
> > > > > > > > > > > (1974)."
>
> > > > > > > > > > > I don't agree, incidentally that we need to 'apply
> > science
> > > > > > > methods' to
> > > > > > > > > > > look into this and feel this is far too restrictive.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 7, 8:52 pm, malcymo <malc...@gmail.com>
>
> ...
>
> read more »