Re: Mind's Eye Re: Towards a modern morality

The Laws/Justice system has incredible power- for good or ill.

On Jun 3, 12:07 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So much for the One and the Many advocats (sic!) - a very, very, very poor
> example though.
>
> No, Vam, it's good to have laws and to have values. By law I have rights,
> whether you like it or not. Your values might not correspond with my
> rights, but they have been fought for by mightier men and women than you
> and me. And there is societal values that I like and some that I don't
> like. The law has no right and no power to take away that freedom from me.
> This is good.
>
>
>
> On Sunday, June 3, 2012 6:29:16 AM UTC+2, Vam wrote:
>
> > Slavery since antiquity... eh. Yes, the hope is then that there are
> > societies that would have experienced it over the millennia, duly
> > noticed it, would experimented and succeeded at evolving a solution of
> > some kind... before stumbling back to similar chaos.
>
> > Distribution is definitely a primary issue which, contrary to what
> > people jump to, is above all about societal values, even before
> > investing in institutions and processes.
>
> > But, equally important is the creation or production process, which
> > need to have the required freedoms and a measure of empowerment. This
> > again must start off at societal values, as Preamble to defining what
> > those freedoms would be, within the agreed societal values.
>
> > The law would not be an ass, if all laws are derived from values. The
> > values need to be defined in simple, unequivocal form, with adequate
> > reinforcing stories and metaphors for people to relate to and
> > recount... not science and art, please ! Should that happen, the
> > values... there would little work for lawyers and no scope for
> > subjectivity, without it becoming clear that the societal values are
> > being changed !
>
> > One glaring, overarching matter is the economic model. This More >
> > More >>> Sky Is The Limit value to both Growth, market expansion !,
> > and Profit, ROI - Dividend - Compensation ... is too stupid, from the
> > values perspective we've broached.
>
> > An almost exact solution is in the concept of overgrowing...
> > knowledge, attitude, skill, career position, social status,
> > entrepreneurship, corporate values ... as in evolving out of one and
> > entering into quite, quite another, of new paradigms.
>
> > Naturally, it takes several centuries, thousand years would be in good
> > proportion, to steer the changes and establish such a society. Which,
> > very sincerely, Europe and American civilisations of today simply do
> > not have. To my mind, any one with a perspective rooted in them would
> > be the proverbial blind, leading the blind. Maybe Incas, North
> > Indians ... that are wiped out.
>
> > Our current global values system abhors communes and communities. The
> > reason is that we have little of the language, markets, economy,
> > judiciary, culture, environmental distinctions that foster and bind
> > communes and communities.
>
> > I know the Islamic ones are very, very very, poor examples but they
> > also provide opportunities to elucidate. In them, at least the more
> > regressive ones, the religious values are pretty much the societal
> > values. They live as a community with their language, customs,
> > culture, symbols, common sense of justice... However distasteful, the
> > society we are speaking of needs to have such social integration with
> > desired values.
>
> > Sorry, apparently, I wrote all this for my blog !
>
> > On Jun 3, 3:22 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Much I agree with Mal.  There's no problem with doing our bit but how
> > > do we know how much that should be or whether we need all the
> > > economics and other Mumbo Jumbo of the control system?
>
> > > On Jun 2, 11:09 pm, malcymo <malc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Hey Vam,
>
> > > > Man who takes out mortgage? A gambler.  Credit has more to answer for
> > > > than the woes of the individual. When a whole society gears up to do
> > > > stuff on a promise do they not court disaster?
>
> > > > Slavery is our lot isn't it. From birth to death we have to work for
> > > > food and shelter, I guess.   What fucks our brains is when we realise
> > > > that our labours are for other peoples food, shelter, resort holidays,
> > > > superyachts, island retreats etc and we cant quite recall how we got
> > > > there.
>
> > > > As to addiction well that is another issue. Legalise and get rid of
> > > > the associated crime is my present stance.
>
> > > > There is no doubt that modern society fails to do enough to protect
> > > > the individual so that he can enjoy a better chance of a stable and
> > > > secure future. What can be done about it? I suppose the search to
> > > > answer that question is why this string exists. As an aside :- All
> > > > species throughout time have had to deal with the ongoing cycles of
> > > > glut and famine. To imagine that stuff is going to stay the same is
> > > > denying the existence of opportunities to grow.
>
> > > > On Jun 3, 4:00 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > What would you call a man who has mortgaged / taken a loan against
> > his
> > > > > future earnings... ?
>
> > > > > The bugger perforce go along the dictates of his present employers,
> > > > > right or wrong, or look for the scarce change and find himself in a
> > > > > state of greater slavery...
>
> > > > > What would you call a man who commits small crimes for his addiction
> > > > > and is hence forever under the thumb of the sleuths, who have their
> > > > > own agendas to make a call ... ?
>
> > > > > The bugger is no position to refuse.
>
> > > > > What would you call a man who is used to his current or future
> > > > > earnings, which satisfy his numerous emotional and status needs... ?
>
> > > > > They'll kill to safeguard that... which allows him to retain his
> > wife,
> > > > > kids, estate...
>
> > > > > On Jun 2, 12:29 am, malcymo <malc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Is it often not the case that the slavery is inflicted upon
> > ourselves
> > > > > > by our greed.
>
> > > > > > On Jun 2, 5:49 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Small societies are very nice, they can be a good example to all
> > of us. Our
> > > > > > > society is one of greed and in reality slavery.
> > > > > > > Allan
> > > > > > > On Jun 1, 2012 1:18 PM, "malcymo" <malc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > I am currently living in a small pacific group of islands.
> > There is a
> > > > > > > > central government but many of the islands have no formal
> > policing.
>
> > > > > > > > So:- their behaviour is controlled, for want of a better word,
> > by the
> > > > > > > > village in which they reside. Usually less than 100
> > households.
>
> > > > > > > > The great advantage they have over a large country with all
> > embracing
> > > > > > > > laws is TIME. Every indiscretion can be carefully considered.
> > They can
> > > > > > > > assess each case, if you like, on its merits. In large western
> > > > > > > > societies it would seem that simplistic (Not simple, in the
> > sense that
> > > > > > > > they have been thought through) restrictions have to be placed
> > on
> > > > > > > > individuals because there is neither the money nor the time
> > available
> > > > > > > > to consider peoples actions in any depth. An example would be
> > > > > > > > something like the speed limit. We all know that 29 mph is
> > safe and 31
> > > > > > > > mph is bloody dangerous, don't we. Of course this is nonsense
> > but it
> > > > > > > > does seem to lead to less accidents.
>
> > > > > > > > It has always seemed to me that one of the key factors towards
> > > > > > > > building a more moral society is to put responsibility for
> > actions as
> > > > > > > > far as possible at the lowest possible level. This in itself,
> > however,
> > > > > > > > is difficult because different societies have different views
> > > > > > > > regarding that which would be considered moral. Also, many of
> > our
> > > > > > > > problems such as environmental destruction are global in
> > nature.
>
> > > > > > > > Anyway, the upshot is that i cannot get my mind around these
> > > > > > > > paradoxical difficulties. I sense that diversitty is important
> > and
> > > > > > > > should be conserved but on the other hand I would be the first
> > to
> > > > > > > > criticise a community which acted in a fashion which my
> > society would
> > > > > > > > consider to be barbaric or irresponsible. I sense a paradox
> > here which
> > > > > > > > confounds me.
>
> > > > > > > > I think that this is why I am following this string. Maybe you
> > guys
> > > > > > > > can come up with some useful ideas.
>
> > > > > > > > On Jun 1, 5:58 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Yes James I think the bar is set to low but I can not help
> > but wonder if
> > > > > > > > > people with a low morality bar are easier to control.
>
> > > > > > > > > If modern morality is one of killing and pop war is it of
> > any value? If
> > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > look at the number of war games avaliable. Where is the
> > morality going?
> > > > > > > > > On Jun 1, 2012 12:26 AM, "James" <ashkas...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > On 5/31/2012 5:43 PM, Allan H wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > >> Birth order has little or nothing do with anything -- as
> > I read what
> > > > > > > > > >> wrote I hear ah dificult to express a person justifing
> > how they live
> > > > > > > > > >> their life. My experience is when people start to justify
> > there is
> > > > > > > > > >> something not quite right. A viewpoint is simply a
> > viewpoint.
>
> > > > > > > > > >> The moral law of Do No Harm is the foundation, the
> > question is how do
> > > > > > > > > >> you view it.
>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -