Re: Mind's Eye Re: Towards a modern morality

I agree except for the guarantee of happiness depending on how you
define it.

On Jun 4, 3:00 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I feel the real issues did not connect, Neil.
> So, here's it in plain text :
>
> People believe what THEY want to believe...
> not what science says.
> Call them modern, post modern... whatever.
> In fact, I find all such divides as polemic and fake.
>
> It makes no difference, for instance, to Christianity even if it is
> established, as has indeed been done, that Jesus is fiction. For the
> anchors at the helm, there's too much money and power in it. And the
> people... they need it.
>
> All politicians, economists, dictators, wealth advisors, fund
> managers, shares brokers, religious heads, bureaucrats, leaders...
> will tell you in private that there are very few people who will or
> can think for themselves.
>
> Surprisingly, despite it all, I would argue that many people do lead
> moral and ethically aligned lives, with consequent difficulties and
> much forbearance. They are simple, honest, creative, respectful
> towards others and the environment, and having ready access to
> happiness through sheer choice.
>
> That's real, without terminological embellishment.
>
> On Jun 4, 7:39 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > What I really mean by 'modern morality' is more guesswork - imagine we
> > invent a bullshit meter.  When politics or other salespeople ply their
> > scripts they are drowned out by the meter's bell.  The meter would
> > eventually make honesty the best policy - or someone who produced
> > another machine that countered the bs meter invisibly very rich.  A
> > modern morality would come after we become modern.  I contend there
> > had been no modernity and believe the main reason for this is our
> > populations are broadly ineducable in science (at least as currently
> > taught) and where there is universal education it is broadly the means
> > to keep us living in non-modern traditions.
> > Science has blasted holes in all religions as fables - but is yet to
> > take on economics and democracy as such - in my view the control fraud
> > has moved from churches, mosques and temples to free market economics
> > in claims this muck is scientific or technocratic when it is fable.
> > What are the moral implications, say, if science could demonstrate
> > very little banking is skilled and a few robots could give the world
> > what it needs in terms of financial services?
>
> > On Jun 4, 12:42 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Just re-read... the word "overgrowing" needs to be read as
> > > "outgrowing" ...
>
> > > On Jun 3, 9:29 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Slavery since antiquity... eh. Yes, the hope is then that there are
> > > > societies that would have experienced it over the millennia, duly
> > > > noticed it, would experimented and succeeded at evolving a solution of
> > > > some kind... before stumbling back to similar chaos.
>
> > > > Distribution is definitely a primary issue which, contrary to what
> > > > people jump to, is above all about societal values, even before
> > > > investing in institutions and processes.
>
> > > > But, equally important is the creation or production process, which
> > > > need to have the required freedoms and a measure of empowerment. This
> > > > again must start off at societal values, as Preamble to defining what
> > > > those freedoms would be, within the agreed societal values.
>
> > > > The law would not be an ass, if all laws are derived from values. The
> > > > values need to be defined in simple, unequivocal form, with adequate
> > > > reinforcing stories and metaphors for people to relate to and
> > > > recount... not science and art, please ! Should that happen, the
> > > > values... there would little work for lawyers and no scope for
> > > > subjectivity, without it becoming clear that the societal values are
> > > > being changed !
>
> > > > One glaring, overarching matter is the economic model. This More >
> > > > More >>> Sky Is The Limit value to both Growth, market expansion !,
> > > > and Profit, ROI - Dividend - Compensation ... is too stupid, from the
> > > > values perspective we've broached.
>
> > > > An almost exact solution is in the concept of overgrowing...
> > > > knowledge, attitude, skill, career position, social status,
> > > > entrepreneurship, corporate values ... as in evolving out of one and
> > > > entering into quite, quite another, of new paradigms.
>
> > > > Naturally, it takes several centuries, thousand years would be in good
> > > > proportion, to steer the changes and establish such a society. Which,
> > > > very sincerely, Europe and American civilisations of today simply do
> > > > not have. To my mind, any one with a perspective rooted in them would
> > > > be the proverbial blind, leading the blind. Maybe Incas, North
> > > > Indians ... that are wiped out.
>
> > > > Our current global values system abhors communes and communities. The
> > > > reason is that we have little of the language, markets, economy,
> > > > judiciary, culture, environmental distinctions that foster and bind
> > > > communes and communities.
>
> > > > I know the Islamic ones are very, very very, poor examples but they
> > > > also provide opportunities to elucidate. In them, at least the more
> > > > regressive ones, the religious values are pretty much the societal
> > > > values. They live as a community with their language, customs,
> > > > culture, symbols, common sense of justice... However distasteful, the
> > > > society we are speaking of needs to have such social integration with
> > > > desired values.
>
> > > > Sorry, apparently, I wrote all this for my blog !
>
> > > > On Jun 3, 3:22 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Much I agree with Mal.  There's no problem with doing our bit but how
> > > > > do we know how much that should be or whether we need all the
> > > > > economics and other Mumbo Jumbo of the control system?
>
> > > > > On Jun 2, 11:09 pm, malcymo <malc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Hey Vam,
>
> > > > > > Man who takes out mortgage? A gambler.  Credit has more to answer for
> > > > > > than the woes of the individual. When a whole society gears up to do
> > > > > > stuff on a promise do they not court disaster?
>
> > > > > > Slavery is our lot isn't it. From birth to death we have to work for
> > > > > > food and shelter, I guess.   What fucks our brains is when we realise
> > > > > > that our labours are for other peoples food, shelter, resort holidays,
> > > > > > superyachts, island retreats etc and we cant quite recall how we got
> > > > > > there.
>
> > > > > > As to addiction well that is another issue. Legalise and get rid of
> > > > > > the associated crime is my present stance.
>
> > > > > > There is no doubt that modern society fails to do enough to protect
> > > > > > the individual so that he can enjoy a better chance of a stable and
> > > > > > secure future. What can be done about it? I suppose the search to
> > > > > > answer that question is why this string exists. As an aside :- All
> > > > > > species throughout time have had to deal with the ongoing cycles of
> > > > > > glut and famine. To imagine that stuff is going to stay the same is
> > > > > > denying the existence of opportunities to grow.
>
> > > > > > On Jun 3, 4:00 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > What would you call a man who has mortgaged / taken a loan against his
> > > > > > > future earnings... ?
>
> > > > > > > The bugger perforce go along the dictates of his present employers,
> > > > > > > right or wrong, or look for the scarce change and find himself in a
> > > > > > > state of greater slavery...
>
> > > > > > > What would you call a man who commits small crimes for his addiction
> > > > > > > and is hence forever under the thumb of the sleuths, who have their
> > > > > > > own agendas to make a call ... ?
>
> > > > > > > The bugger is no position to refuse.
>
> > > > > > > What would you call a man who is used to his current or future
> > > > > > > earnings, which satisfy his numerous emotional and status needs... ?
>
> > > > > > > They'll kill to safeguard that... which allows him to retain his wife,
> > > > > > > kids, estate...
>
> > > > > > > On Jun 2, 12:29 am, malcymo <malc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > Is it often not the case that the slavery is inflicted upon ourselves
> > > > > > > > by our greed.
>
> > > > > > > > On Jun 2, 5:49 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > Small societies are very nice, they can be a good example to all of us. Our
> > > > > > > > > society is one of greed and in reality slavery.
> > > > > > > > > Allan
> > > > > > > > > On Jun 1, 2012 1:18 PM, "malcymo" <malc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > I am currently living in a small pacific group of islands. There is a
> > > > > > > > > > central government but many of the islands have no formal policing.
>
> > > > > > > > > > So:- their behaviour is controlled, for want of a better word, by the
> > > > > > > > > > village in which they reside. Usually less than 100 households.
>
> > > > > > > > > > The great advantage they have over a large country with all embracing
> > > > > > > > > > laws is TIME. Every indiscretion can be carefully considered. They can
> > > > > > > > > > assess each case, if you like, on its merits. In large western
> > > > > > > > > > societies it would seem that simplistic (Not simple, in the sense that
> > > > > > > > > > they have been thought through) restrictions have to be placed on
> > > > > > > > > > individuals because there is neither the money nor the time available
> > > > > > > > > > to consider peoples actions in any depth. An example would be
> > > > > > > > > > something like the speed limit. We all know that 29 mph is safe and 31
> > > > > > > > > > mph is bloody dangerous, don't we. Of course this is nonsense but it
> > > > > > > > > > does seem to lead to less accidents.
>
> > > > > > > > > > It has always seemed to me that one of the key factors towards
> > > > > > > > > > building a more moral society is to put responsibility for actions as
>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -