Thursday, May 31, 2012

Re: Mind's Eye Re: Towards a modern morality

Yes James I think the bar is set to low but I can not help but wonder if people with a low morality bar are easier to control.

If modern morality is one of killing and pop war is it of any value? If you look at the number of war games avaliable. Where is the morality going?

On Jun 1, 2012 12:26 AM, "James" <ashkashal@gmail.com> wrote:
On 5/31/2012 5:43 PM, Allan H wrote:
Birth order has little or nothing do with anything -- as I read what
wrote I hear ah dificult to express a person justifing how they live
their life. My experience is when people start to justify there is
something not quite right. A viewpoint is simply a viewpoint.

The moral law of Do No Harm is the foundation, the question is how do
you view it.

I think it is a pivotal moral principle in one's personal and professional life to consider what effects their actions or inactions will have on those effected, and seeking to resolve the eventual dilemmas that arise. A kind of growth in scope and depth, keeping to a personal code like this. Some take an oath to preserve the trust imparted by power and station, I think it should be expanded quite a bit! The bar is set too low.

On another note I think it would be paralyzing for someone to understand 'why' it is important, without the 'how' to implement.


Allan

On May 31, 2012 2:29 PM, "rigsy03" <rigsy03@yahoo.com
<mailto:rigsy03@yahoo.com>> wrote:

   Lots of choices are "expensive" and not all women lose their
   "figures" ( which does not note male decrepitude); further, wars,
   diseases, catastophes, etc. trim populations; the point you may be
   trying to make is that all humanity deserves the "good life" whether
   earned or entitled to by the efforts/incomes of others. I don't think
   life is "fair" or that all humans are equal in intelligence, talent or
   survival tactics or that my view is anything new.//Interesting- that
   you are the third child and it may explain some of your thinking as I
   find birth order or being an only child has a lot of influence.

   On May 30, 12:53 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com
   <mailto:nwte...@gmail.com>> wrote:
    > My rather lengthy response has just blown up!  My view is the
   world is
    > a rotten place and 'moral blather' serves more to cover this up than
    > change anything.  This is easy enough to say.  The conundrum is we do
    > know people should live in peace - but to say this is to 'enforce
    > liberalism' - often one of Gabby's points - one that is found in the
    > Lyotard-Habermas debates.  Once ideology is extirpated as Habermas
    > wanted, one must act on what is left.  How do we know this isn't just
    > a rationalist fantasy?  Even the Nazi's self-justified as "rational".
    > Habermas had been caught up in the Hitler youth as a kid (as we all
    > would if German at the time), but was as anti-Nazi as any
   intellectual
    > could be.  He wanted us to act against and ideal-type free speech
    > situation where only the power of Reason was in play.  The key
   problem
    > with this is there are no rational humans.  Habermas knew this -
   hence
    > the 'ideal-type' (which comes from Max Weber).  Once you know the
    > rational in any totality you are doomed to act in accordance as their
    > can be no decision (there may be alternatives as in quadrilateral
    > equations with two solutions).  This itself may be no more than
    > 'rational terror' (and of course just another control group
   pretending
    > to be objective but really acting on their hidden agenda).
    >
    > I have little doubt science has shown up humanity as irrational and
    > just a more dangerous animal than others.  The question for me is how
    > we develop a real live and let live morality that recognises some
   form
    > of peaceful policing has to be in effect because we are inclined to
    > cheat and exploit.  We have a world in which much we think of as
   human
    > rights (e.g. breeding) lead to disasters like overpopulation - the
    > tragedy of the Commons writ large.  Who amongst us really wants to
    > deny a couple a child, or yet another carbon foot-print to exist?
     Yet
    > which of us wants to allow another birth into grinding poverty and
    > early death?  These matters look unanswerable in our current
    > morality.  Yet at the centre of evil Catholicism, Italy has
    > constrained its population growth without 'Chinese law' - so
   maybe the
    > moral argument is defeated by economics (kids are expensive, ruin
    > female figures etc.) - though even such population curbing leads to
    > older societies and a shortage of productive workers (etc.).  I would
    > not have been born as a third child under more restrictive population
    > control - though it's likely there would have been room given the
    > broader lack of breeding in my own country.  What of those people who
    > think procreation is work done for god?
    >
    > My sense of current morality is that it dodges the issues we need to
    > address - from world peace and lack of terror to work ethic.
     I'll try
    > and find time later to draw up a glimpse of a world based on modern
    > morality later (Lee's suggestion).  We could all do this - not to
   come
    > up with the solution - but fictions from which we might track back to
    > what would need to change to make them possibilities.
    >
    > On May 30, 5:14 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com
   <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > To use do no harm,, really means one must look at your actions and
    > > take responsibility for them..  It seems that the people start
   writing laws
    > > they are trying to figure out  how to get around  the concept
   thus trying
    > > to avoid responsibility.
    > > Allan
    >
    > > On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 6:03 PM, malcymo <malc...@gmail.com
   <mailto:malc...@gmail.com>> wrote:
    > > > That to understand just what is causing harm is sometimes
   beyond our
    > > > capabilities. Are not some issues so interwoven that to
   unravel them
    > > > and be absolutly  sure that a particular stance is doing the
   least
    > > > harm is very difficult. The chinese seem to understand the
   ideas of
    > > > good "bad thought" and bad "good thoughts" which is their way of
    > > > handling the dilema.
    >
    > > > Having said this, as far is the environment is concerned it seems
    > > > pretty clear to most that inorganic shit should not be thrown
   around
    > > > willy nilly. This like many other examples seem to be self
   evident.
    > > > But maybe only in the sense that they are good for our survival.
    > > > Nature itself, in some ways, is totally without morallity.
    >
    > > > Sometimes I think that the best we can do is to be selfless
   and try to
    > > > act for our perceived good of nature AND hope that our
   perceptions are
    > > > right.
    >
    > > > On May 30, 1:33 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com
   <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
    > > > > The law of do no harm is not impossible but rather a simple
   guideline
    > > > that
    > > > > is very workable. I know people are always coming up with
   things like
    > > > > killing and animal for food is causing harm. the concept is
   really use
    > > > what
    > > > > you need and not destroy the enviorment doing it,  the
   questions should
    > > > be
    > > > > if you are a family  of four do you need a 10,000 sq ft house.
    > > > > the other part comes form living a luxurious life style at
   the expense of
    > > > > others especially the poor, or wear the latest fashions
   that are made by
    > > > > slave labor in the USA or else where.. and yes they do
   exist. or
    > > > eliminate
    > > > > employment so you can have a fatter salary.
    >
    > > > > The real problem is  understanding just what is causing
   harm..  the
    > > > > solution does not lie in creating laws. just so people can
   break them. It
    > > > > seems most laws today are written  to allow people to get
   around this
    > > > very
    > > > > law.
    > > > > Allan
    > > > >  On May 29, 2012 12:03 PM, "Lee Douglas"
   <leerevdoug...@gmail.com <mailto:leerevdoug...@gmail.com>>
    > > > wrote:
    >
    > > > > > Do no harm is broad brush, and kind of impossible to live
   by though
    > > > innit?
    >
    > > > > > On Friday, 18 May 2012 05:13:01 UTC+1, archytas wrote:
    >
    > > > > >> My stance towards most moralising is one of incredulity,
   yet I'm a
    > > > > >> moraliser and believe most of our problems lie in our
   lack of personal
    > > > > >> and collective morality.  Economics as our political and
   business
    > > > > >> class practice it is fundamentally immoral against a
   scientific world-
    > > > > >> view,  My view of science is that it is full of values
   and the notion
    > > > > >> of it as value-free is a total and totalising dud.  Only
   lay people
    > > > > >> with no experience of doing science hold the
   "value-free" notion of
    > > > > >> science.
    >
    > > > > >> You can explore some of the moral issues arising in
   modern science in
    > > > > >> a lengthy book review at London Review of Books -
    > > > > >>http://www.lrb.co.uk/v34/n10/**malcolm-bull/what-is-the-**
    > > > > >> rational-response<
    > >
    >http://www.lrb.co.uk/v34/n10/malcolm-bull/what-is-the-rational-response>.
    >
    > > > > >> The book's topic is climate change.
    >
    > > > > >> Coming up to 60 I regard the world as a abject failure
   against the
    > > > > >> promises I thought were being made in politics.  I'm a
   world-weary old
    > > > > >> fart now, tending to see the generations coming up as
   narcissist
    > > > > >> wastrels who don't know what hard work is (etc.) though
   I think the
    > > > > >> blame is ours, not theirs.  I think the problem is our
   attitude
    > > > > >> towards morality.  The tendency in history is to focus
   on religion for
    > > > > >> moral advice - this is utterly corrupt and we have
   forgotten that much
    > > > > >> religious morality is actually a reaction against
   unfairness and the
    > > > > >> wicked control of our lives by the rich.  It is this
   latter factor
    > > > > >> that is repeating itself.
    >
    > > > > >> Much moralising concerns sex.  This all largely based in
   old fables
    > > > > >> for population control we can still find in primitive
   societies such
    > > > > >> as 'sperm control by fellatio' (Sambians) and
   non-penetrative youth
    > > > > >> sex (Kikuyu) etc. - and stuff like 'the silver ring
   thing'.  The
    > > > > >> modern issue is population control and that we can
   achieve this
    > > > > >> without sexual moralising - the moral issues are about
   quality of
    > > > > >> life, women as other than child-bearing vessels and so
   on.  We have
    > > > > >> failed almost entirely except in developed countries -
   to such an
    > > > > >> extent the world population has trebled in my lifetime
   despite
    > > > > >> economic factors driving down birth-rates in developed
   countries
    > > > > >> without the kind of restrictions such as China enforced.
    >
    > > > > >> We are still at war.
    >
    > > > > >> Our economics is still based in "growth" and
   "consumption" and notions
    > > > > >> human beings should work hard - when in fact the amount
   of work we
    > > > > >> need to do probably equates to 3 days a week for 6
   months of a year.
    > > > > >> 75% of GDP is in services and only 6% in really hard
   work like
    > > > > >> agriculture.  We could have a great deal more through
   doing less and
    > > > > >> doing what we do with more regard for conservation and
   very different
    > > > > >> scientific advance.  My view is it's immoral that we
   won't take
    > > > > >> responsibility for this and review our failures.  I
   believe this
    > > > > >> failure inhibits our spiritual growth and renders us
   simply animal.
    >
    > > > > >> Human life may be much less than I value it at and just
   a purposeless
    > > > > >> farce.  The first step in a new attitude towards
   morality is to
    > > > > >> consider living with a scientific world-view.  The
   implications of
    > > > > >> this are complex and probably entail shaking ourselves
   from a false-
    > > > > >> consciousness to be able to see what is being done in
   our name.  We
    > > > > >> need a modern morality not based in the creation of fear
   and demons to
    > > > > >> enforce it, or the feeble existential view of the
   individual.  We are
    > > > > >> social animals and need to get back to some basics
   developed with
    > > > > >> modern knowledge, not in past religious and empire
   disasters.
    >
    > > > > >> Religion has a role in this in my view - religion we
   might recapture
    > > > > >> from sensible history - I'd recommend David Graeber's
   'Debt: the first
    > > > > >> 5000 years' as a read here.
    >
    > > --
    > >  (
    > >   )
    > > |_D Allan
    >
    > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


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