Not at all unless you can show how?
It is true to say that the ant can only be what ever an ant can be, it cannot ever the bettle, nr the wasp. But in it's life as ant it is free to be as antish as it will. It can roam it's land and head towards any food stuffs it encounters, it is not forced onto a track and may only raid the same kictech over and over again. In short it enjoys some freedoms within it's enviroment.
On Wednesday, 30 May 2012 16:03:44 UTC+1, malcymo wrote:
If the brain gets its data from experience then is it not the case
that its choices are made as a result of manipulating that data either
rationally or emotionally ( The way our ancestors survived)? Does
this not mean that are choices are limited by our experiences and
genes and hence in a sense predetermined?
Anyway I dont want to think about it too much just prefering to be and
do.
On May 30, 8:54 pm, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Malcymo,
>
> The deterministic argument against freewill has just never done it for me.
> It seems to me rather like faith based beliefe, and of course those of you
> here that know me would know that I have nothing against such belife and
> personaly find it prevalant all round us, heh escpeasily in those who
> profess to be without it!
>
> The argument goes something like this.
>
> You agree that nothing exists without a cause, then each of our choices
> must be predetermined upon a cause of which we have little or no knowledge
> of.
>
> It's a huge leap of faith, I mean to declare determinism true without first
> pinning down all of these causes. For if we can find just one counter
> example then the whole deal just blows away on the wind.
>
> As to where the brain gets it's data, well all around, everything that we
> encounter colours our perceptions and our ideas about the world around us,
> about how we do, and how we ought to deal with each other, in other words
> the building of the 'The Self'. 'Common Sense' shows us that we can in
> some ways mold our Selves, in effect act consiously upon the brain to
> effect changes inthe brain. This sure seems akin to freewill to me.
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, 29 May 2012 20:25:40 UTC+1, malcymo wrote:
> > Hello each,
>
> > I shall be within reach of modern technology again for the next 6
> > months when the jungle will call again.
>
> > Have read the new posts on this thread with interest and am sensing a
> > belief that because the brain makes our choices then they must be
> > free.
> > But to understand whether our choices are free or not do we not have
> > to establish from whence the brain derives the data on which it bases
> > its choices??? Is not our behavior largely based on evolutionary
> > successful actions which have proved successful in the past
> > (sometimes irrational and instinctive) and only slightly modified by
> > rational thought on which you all know my view.
>
> > It seems a worry to me that most evolutionary apt behaviours are now
> > not adapting quickly enough to be relevant in our present world.
>
> > Nice to be back and see the site active.
>
> > Malc
>
> > On May 18, 9:13 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > You are blessed, Allan, I feel... in having a rather uncomplicated
> > > view. Most people are yet to discover that !
>
> > > Seriously... the complexities they speak of is more about themselves
> > > than of what they speak of. But, peace, dear ones !
>
> > > On May 18, 12:01 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Strange Vam , I have always seen more choices, now I also see the
> > effect
> > > > of the choices .. which leaves only basic first path. I do have
> > absolute
> > > > free will to leave that path any time I chose.. to date I have seen no
> > one
> > > > offer a better path.
> > > > On May 18, 2012 7:46 AM, "Vam" <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > " Life is a combination of free will & destiny. More you go deep in
> > > > > meditation & align with laws of nature, your free will increases -
> > Sri
> > > > > Sri "
>
> > > > > Just read this quote on Twitter.
>
> > > > > On May 10, 2:19 pm, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > Ohhh Molly there is always choice, and we are faced with countless
> > > > > > everyday. Perhaps though the biggest choice is simply " To be"
> > Or
> > > > > indeed
> > > > > > to, not be.
>
> > > > > > On Monday, 9 January 2012 23:20:58 UTC, Molly wrote:
> > > > > > > Perhaps, gabby. But at this point in my life, for me, there is
> > no
> > > > > > > other choice. So is it really a choice?
>
> > > > > > > On Jan 9, 6:14 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > Oh Molly, I believe you are more than the box you come in,
> > too! I
> > > > > > > > believe you choose to want to feel lovely at each moment,
> > feeling
> > > > > > > > alive!
>
> > > > > > > > On Jan 9, 11:34 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > We know by recognizing his potentiality and helping him to
> > do the
> > > > > > > > > same. Sometimes, given the box it comes in, this takes an
> > > > > > > > > extraordinary amount of love and care. At some point,
> > choice, like
> > > > > > > > > goals and purpose and all the rest, just fall away. And
> > here we
> > > > > are.
> > > > > > > > > Relating to those we love. Feeling the life we've been
> > given. Ten
> > > > > > > > > years ago I would not have imagined myself as I am today. I
> > am
> > > > > here
> > > > > > > > > because somewhere along the line I discovered that the best
> > I can
> > > > > "do"
> > > > > > > > > is express myself with love in each moment, and recognize
> > the same
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > others, whatever the circumstance. Given that, life
> > unfolds.
>
> > > > > > > > > On Jan 9, 3:42 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > Some of this take on epistemology can be gleaned by
> > observing
> > > > > what's
> > > > > > > > > > around us. Teenagers are a minefield of such information.
> > My
> > > > > > > > > > grandson (14) is currently making excuses for not having
> > enough
> > > > > > > baths
> > > > > > > > > > and showers along the lines of 'it's my body'.
> > Empirically he
> > > > > > > stinks.
> > > > > > > > > > He's barely noticed how much work gets done around him.
> > He can't
> > > > > > > keep
> > > > > > > > > > his PC free of viruses or use his laptop with enough care
> > not to
> > > > > > > break
> > > > > > > > > > the charger lead (etc.). It has barely dawned on him that
> > I was
> > > > > > > once
> > > > > > > > > > his age and that he has never been my age. He's a good
> > enough
> > > > > lad
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > this is all that really matters to me. He was like an
> > Irishman
> > > > > put
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > a barrel and told to piss in the corner the other day (add
> > Pole,
> > > > > > > > > > Belgian etc. to xenophobic choice). I gave him a power
> > lead
> > > > > > > straight
> > > > > > > > > > from the box and he spent the time trying to fit it to the
> > socket
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > the insulation packaging left on. I guess he won't next
> > time,
> > > > > > > though
> > > > > > > > > > I proved a slower learner on some such stuff. It would be
> > easy
> > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > > > > to leave him alone to "develop" into a useless, smelly
> > nitwit.
> > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > idea is we don't. How do we know?
>
> > > > > > > > > > On Jan 7, 10:34 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > I agree with RP that we are looking at complex
> > relations. Lots
> > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > > > been said on Mal's thought - this is a standard\
> > example:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > "The Darwinian revolution of the nineteenth century
> > suggested
> > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > alternative approach first explored by Dewey and the
> > > > > pragmatists.
> > > > > > > > > > > Human beings, as the products of evolutionary
> > development, are
> > > > > > > natural
> > > > > > > > > > > beings. Their capacities for knowledge and belief are
> > also the
> > > > > > > > > > > products of a natural evolutionary development. As such,
> > there
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > reason to suspect that knowing, as a natural activity,
> > could
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > should be treated and analyzed along lines compatible
> > with its
> > > > > > > status,
> > > > > > > > > > > i. e., by the methods of natural science. On this view,
> > there
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > sharp division of labor between science and
> > epistemology. In
> > > > > > > > > > > particular, the results of particular sciences such as
> > > > > > > evolutionary
> > > > > > > > > > > biology and psychology are not ruled a priori irrelevant
> > to the
> > > > > > > > > > > solution of epistemological problems. Such approaches,
> > in
> > > > > general,
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > called naturalistic epistemologies, whether they are
> > directly
> > > > > > > > > > > motivated by evolutionary considerations or not. Those
> > which
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > directly motivated by evolutionary considerations and
> > which
> > > > > argue
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > the growth of knowledge follows the pattern of evolution
> > in
> > > > > > > biology
> > > > > > > > > > > are called "evolutionary epistemologies."
>
> > > > > > > > > > > Evolutionary epistemology is the attempt to address
> > questions
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > theory of knowledge from an evolutionary point of view.
> > > > > > > Evolutionary
> > > > > > > > > > > epistemology involves, in part, deploying models and
> > metaphors
> > > > > > > drawn
> > > > > > > > > > > from evolutionary biology in the attempt to characterize
> > and
> > > > > > > resolve
> > > > > > > > > > > issues arising in epistemology and conceptual change. As
> > > > > > > disciplines
> > > > > > > > > > > co-evolve, models are traded back and forth. Thus,
> > evolutionary
> > > > > > > > > > > epistemology also involves attempts to understand how
> > > > > biological
> > > > > > > > > > > evolution proceeds by interpreting it through models
> > drawn from
> > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > > > > understanding of conceptual change and the development
> > of
> > > > > > > theories.
> > > > > > > > > > > The term "evolutionary epistemology" was coined by
> > Donald
> > > > > Campbell
> > > > > > > > > > > (1974)."
>
> > > > > > > > > > > I don't agree, incidentally that we need to 'apply
> > science
> > > > > > > methods' to
> > > > > > > > > > > look into this and feel this is far too restrictive.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 7, 8:52 pm, malcymo <malc...@gmail.com>
>
> ...
>
> read more »
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