Re: Mind's Eye Freewill - A useful myth?

When we act or react we apparently do so with a free will , but that
'will' comes from within us emanating from our very nature which is
made up of God- given constraints and abilities.

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 8:43 PM, malcymo <malcymo@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have difficulty imagining a mechanism where God binds our freedom
> other than the simple constraints of our evolved mental and physical
> limitations. Maybe I am not trying hard enough.
>
> On May 31, 3:05 am, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Lee , we may say we are free but our freedom is bound by God's will.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 4:43 PM, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Then we need to detirmine what is meant by free huh.
>>
>> > All things are subject to their natures and so it is true that all things
>> > are somewhat fettered, and hence not truely free.  Yet this makes a mockery
>> > of the word free, to such an extent that we may as well not use the word.
>> > yet we do, and we contiune to do so.  Are we then mistaken calling any
>> > things free?  Is the bird not free to fly the skies?  Yes of course the bird
>> > is free to fly, but what, I hear you ask, about flying above the atmosphere
>> > of the planet?  The bird is certianly not free to do that; so can we say
>> > that the bird is not free to fly?
>>
>> > Of course not, that would be absured.  So free then must mean free within
>> > the constraints of it's enviroument or it's nature.
>>
>> > When a man reaches a desiscion, yes it is true that such a descions can only
>> > ever be made within the constraints of the mans nature or enviroment or
>> > indeed the many veriables effecting such choice, but the question must be,
>> > is it a choice freely made or somehow forced upon the man?
>>
>> > Yes indeed if we are to belive that our wills are not free then we must
>> > answer by what power are our choices forced upon us?
>>
>> > On Wednesday, 30 May 2012 10:09:12 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>>
>> >> The will to change ourselves is innate and a part- function of the
>> >> brain , which being physical is bound by various factors.
>>
>> >> On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Hey Malcymo,
>>
>> >> > The deterministic argument against freewill has just never done it for
>> >> > me.
>> >> > It seems to me rather like faith based beliefe, and of course those of
>> >> > you
>> >> > here that know me would know that I have nothing against such belife and
>> >> > personaly find it prevalant all round us, heh escpeasily in those who
>> >> > profess to be without it!
>>
>> >> > The argument goes something like this.
>>
>> >> > You agree that nothing exists without a cause, then each of our choices
>> >> > must
>> >> > be predetermined upon a cause of which we have little or no knowledge
>> >> > of.
>>
>> >> > It's a huge leap of faith, I mean to declare determinism true without
>> >> > first
>> >> > pinning down all of these causes.  For if we can find just one counter
>> >> > example then the whole deal just blows away on the wind.
>>
>> >> > As to where the brain gets it's data, well all around, everything that
>> >> > we
>> >> > encounter colours our perceptions and our ideas about the world around
>> >> > us,
>> >> > about how we do, and how we ought to deal with each other, in other
>> >> > words
>> >> > the building of the 'The Self'.  'Common Sense' shows us that we can in
>> >> > some
>> >> > ways mold our Selves, in effect act consiously upon the brain to effect
>> >> > changes inthe brain.  This sure seems akin to freewill to me.
>>
>> >> > On Tuesday, 29 May 2012 20:25:40 UTC+1, malcymo wrote:
>>
>> >> >> Hello each,
>>
>> >> >> I shall be within reach of modern technology again for the next 6
>> >> >> months when the jungle will call again.
>>
>> >> >> Have read the new posts on this thread with interest and am sensing a
>> >> >> belief that because the brain makes our choices then they must be
>> >> >> free.
>> >> >> But to understand whether our choices are free or not do we not have
>> >> >> to establish from whence the brain derives the data on which it bases
>> >> >> its choices??? Is not our behavior largely  based on evolutionary
>> >> >> successful actions which have proved successful in the past
>> >> >> (sometimes irrational and instinctive) and only slightly modified by
>> >> >> rational thought on which you all know my view.
>>
>> >> >> It seems a worry to me that most evolutionary apt behaviours are now
>> >> >> not adapting quickly enough to be relevant in our present world.
>>
>> >> >> Nice to be back and see the site active.
>>
>> >> >> Malc
>>
>> >> >> On May 18, 9:13 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > You are blessed, Allan, I feel... in having a rather uncomplicated
>> >> >> > view. Most people are yet to discover that !
>>
>> >> >> > Seriously... the complexities they speak of is more about themselves
>> >> >> > than of what they speak of. But, peace, dear ones !
>>
>> >> >> > On May 18, 12:01 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> > > Strange Vam ,  I have always seen  more choices, now I also see the
>> >> >> > > effect
>> >> >> > > of the choices ..  which leaves only basic first path. I do have
>> >> >> > > absolute
>> >> >> > > free will to leave that path any time I chose.. to date I have seen
>> >> >> > > no
>> >> >> > > one
>> >> >> > > offer a better path.
>> >> >> > > On May 18, 2012 7:46 AM, "Vam" <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> > > > " Life is a combination of free will & destiny. More you go deep
>> >> >> > > > in
>> >> >> > > > meditation & align with laws of nature, your free will increases
>> >> >> > > > -
>> >> >> > > > Sri
>> >> >> > > > Sri "
>>
>> >> >> > > > Just read this quote on Twitter.
>>
>> >> >> > > > On May 10, 2:19 pm, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > > > > Ohhh Molly there is always choice, and we are faced with
>> >> >> > > > > countless
>> >> >> > > > > everyday.  Perhaps though the biggest choice is simply " To be"
>> >> >> > > > >  Or
>> >> >> > > > indeed
>> >> >> > > > > to, not be.
>>
>> >> >> > > > > On Monday, 9 January 2012 23:20:58 UTC, Molly wrote:
>> >> >> > > > > > Perhaps, gabby.  But at this point in my life, for me, there
>> >> >> > > > > > is
>> >> >> > > > > > no
>> >> >> > > > > > other choice.  So is it really a choice?
>>
>> >> >> > > > > > On Jan 9, 6:14 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > > > > > > Oh Molly, I believe you are more than the box you come in,
>> >> >> > > > > > > too! I
>> >> >> > > > > > > believe you choose to want to feel lovely at each moment,
>> >> >> > > > > > > feeling
>> >> >> > > > > > > alive!
>>
>> >> >> > > > > > > On Jan 9, 11:34 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> > > > > > > > We know by recognizing his potentiality and helping him
>> >> >> > > > > > > > to
>> >> >> > > > > > > > do the
>> >> >> > > > > > > > same.  Sometimes, given the box it comes in, this takes
>> >> >> > > > > > > > an
>> >> >> > > > > > > > extraordinary amount of love and care.  At some point,
>> >> >> > > > > > > > choice, like
>> >> >> > > > > > > > goals and purpose and all the rest, just fall away.  And
>> >> >> > > > > > > > here we
>> >> >> > > > are.
>> >> >> > > > > > > > Relating to those we love.  Feeling the life we've been
>> >> >> > > > > > > > given.  Ten
>> >> >> > > > > > > > years ago I would not have imagined myself as I am today.
>> >> >> > > > > > > >  I
>> >> >> > > > > > > > am
>> >> >> > > > here
>> >> >> > > > > > > > because somewhere along the line I discovered that the
>> >> >> > > > > > > > best
>> >> >> > > > > > > > I can
>> >> >> > > > "do"
>> >> >> > > > > > > > is express myself with love in each moment, and recognize
>> >> >> > > > > > > > the same
>> >> >> > > > in
>> >> >> > > > > > > > others, whatever the circumstance.  Given that, life
>> >> >> > > > > > > > unfolds.
>>
>> >> >> > > > > > > > On Jan 9, 3:42 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > Some of this take on epistemology can be gleaned by
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > observing
>> >> >> > > > what's
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > around us.  Teenagers are a minefield of such
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > information.
>> >> >> > > > > > > > >  My
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > grandson (14) is currently making excuses for not
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > having
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > enough
>> >> >> > > > > > baths
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > and showers along the lines of 'it's my body'.
>> >> >> > > > > > > > >  Empirically he
>> >> >> > > > > > stinks.
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > He's barely noticed how much work gets done around him.
>> >> >> > > > > > > > >  He can't
>> >> >> > > > > > keep
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > his PC free of viruses or use his laptop with enough
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > care
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > not to
>> >> >> > > > > > break
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > the charger lead (etc.).  It has barely dawned on him
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > that
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > I was
>> >> >> > > > > > once
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > his age and that he has never been my age.  He's a good
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > enough
>> >> >> > > > lad
>> >> >> > > > > > and
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > this is all that really matters to me.  He was like an
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > Irishman
>> >> >> > > > put
>> >> >> > > > > > in
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > a barrel and told to piss in the corner the other day
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > (add
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > Pole,
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > Belgian etc. to xenophobic choice).  I gave him a power
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > lead
>> >> >> > > > > > straight
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > from the box and he spent the time trying to fit it to
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > the
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > socket
>> >> >> > > > > > with
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > the insulation packaging left on.  I guess he won't
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > next
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > time,
>> >> >> > > > > > though
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > I proved a slower learner on some such stuff.  It would
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > be
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > easy
>> >> >> > > > > > enough
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > to leave him alone to "develop" into a useless, smelly
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > nitwit.
>> >> >> > > >  The
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > idea is we don't.  How do we know?
>>
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > On Jan 7, 10:34 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > > I agree with RP that we are looking at complex
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > > relations.  Lots
>> >> >> > > > > > has
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > > been said on Mal's thought - this is a standard\
>> >> >> > > > > > > > > > example:
>>
>> ...
>>
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