experience 'joy'. In this role-modelling world there is little I see
as individual and a great deal of copying. The pools of such stuff as
pornography, reality TV and the rest are not encouraging and 'personal
development' as a business module is pretty dire. Nice counterpunch
Moll, though I have trouble with the joy concept.
On Mar 1, 3:10 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You might want to try learning to embrace that too.
> Am 29.02.2012 23:56 schrieb "Molly" <mollyb...@gmail.com>:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > did you tell one?
>
> > On Feb 29, 4:09 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Puh, Molly, the "because it also brings joy" is like explaining why you
> > > should laugh about my funny joke.
>
> > > On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > The wrath of Christ toward the money changers in the temple is
> > > > repeated in us until recognized. Recognition is the key. the
> > > > rational mind will always reason and compare because that is the
> > > > necessary function of it. When we base our identity in these
> > > > comparisons, we limit our own natures, because they are limited.
> > > > Witnessing not only what we think about, the form of the thought, but
> > > > how we think, our thinking processes, is what gets us beyond the
> > > > limitation of thinking. We get beyond with recognition. Experiencing
> > > > the world with a silent mind is like standing on the best viewpoint in
> > > > the Grand Canyon. Exhilarating. Being able to maintain a quiet mind
> > > > the majority of the time requires not only recognition (and
> > > > detachment) of thought, but the process of thinking. Thinking doesn't
> > > > stop. We stop basing our identities in it, and we use it less.
>
> > > > Few things bring us to the recognition of our experience beyond
> > > > thought like a good laugh, because it also brings joy.
>
> > > > On Feb 27, 1:49 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > I don't disagree with Molly, though I was just presenting what her
> > > > > words 'rang' in me. My belief is that consciousness in used too
> > > > > infrequently - the basics of the mess of our communities and people
> > is
> > > > > unconscious and broadly animal (the mess includes some good stuff).
> > > > > Consciousness is too easily overcome by cunning, and, as Molly says,
> > > > > narcissism.
> > > > > What has struck me for a long time is how difficult it is to present
> > > > > argument because it's too difficult to get anyone to take part
> > > > > 'honestly' - this is particularly difficult for teachers these days!
> > > > > In some areas, I have stopped thinking in standard ways - gender is
> > an
> > > > > example. I tend to see in terms of certain types being fascinated by
> > > > > trinkets, fashion, gossip - one could imagine a shaggy dog story here
> > > > > in which these types all turn out to be women - but honestly that's
> > > > > not what I mean. I'm not interested in my identity as a man - but in
> > > > > terms of what I'm able to be and do - maleness is largely a
> > > > > constraint, animal and not much I want. The opportunities for
> > > > > identity seem very much off-the-peg and already detailed to copy.
> > One
> > > > > modern identity that interests me is that of the 'empty creditor' -
> > > > > those who bring bankruptcy about through derivatives wangles. Some
> > of
> > > > > my students clearly see such as models to copy - shrewd in money-
> > > > > making. The image of this identity in me is more one of the vile
> > > > > usurer demanding sex through threats of eviction in silent film. The
> > > > > apparatchiks quickly became entrepreneurchiks once Soviet rhetoric
> > > > > gave way to World Bank trash. There is surely a false individualism
> > > > > that is merely chameleon-like? And soul is denied RP. I suspect
> > mine
> > > > > troubles me and I don't not welcome that given what I see around me!
>
> > > > > On Feb 26, 3:53 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > The thes [THEs] that define this may come in undivided by duality,
> > what
> > > > > > they have been multiplied with is to be experienced nevertheless.
>
> > > > > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 3:25 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > The one who is aware of oneself and the others is the individual
> > --
> > > > > > > and that cannot be without consciousness. The one that is
> > unconscious
> > > > > > > is not an individual but the Soul from which all the
> > individualities
> > > > > > > emanate. The identity is just the covering of an individuality.
>
> > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 7:33 PM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > Ideas of identity are related to matter - I allow that to
> > happen
> > > > every
> > > > > > > > night.
>
> > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 2:40 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com
>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > >> I know my view is not that of the world.. if it was there
> > would
> > > > have
> > > > > > > >> been massive changes long ago,, the best I can hope for is to
> > > > ask the
> > > > > > > right
> > > > > > > >> questions, throw out some ideas,, in talking with young
> > people
> > > > and
> > > > > > > >> hopefully they may start thinking and come up with ideas that
> > they
> > > > > > > might be
> > > > > > > >> able to bring about change.. they are the one that have the
> > > > > > > responsibility
> > > > > > > >> now. My role at best would be of that of an elder.
>
> > > > > > > >> I do know you can not pay off debt with more debt. all though
> > > > people
> > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > >> try to convince you that you can do it with poverty. whether
> > they
> > > > like
> > > > > > > it or
> > > > > > > >> not their souls are at risk.
>
> > > > > > > >> Our ideas need to be put out there for examination whether
> > they
> > > > are
> > > > > > > right
> > > > > > > >> or wrong, it doesn't matter..
> > > > > > > >> Allan
>
> > > > > > > >> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > >>> If what is on either side of the equal sign goes both ways,
> > your
> > > > > > > >>> interpretation of my statement would be accurate. I think I
> > was
> > > > > > > >>> saying that we confuse our world view for what is in
> > actuality,
> > > > our
> > > > > > > >>> individual view. In other words, we sometimes think the
> > whole
> > > > world
> > > > > > > >>> has a view that is actually just ours in the moment. There
> > is a
> > > > > > > >>> narcissistic psychology to this that seems to be prevalent in
> > > > those
> > > > > > > >>> that need to feel themselves "right" or superior or more
> > > > powerful.
> > > > > > > >>> I've also found it interesting that everyone else in the
> > room can
> > > > > > > >>> sometimes see it, but the person espousing. A good absurd
> > joke
> > > > can
> > > > > > > >>> bust through that illusion and humble us in a way that
> > brings us
> > > > to
> > > > > > > >>> the point of knowing that we know nothing, it is all a
> > matter of
> > > > view.
>
> > > > > > > >>> To discuss individuality, we should probably discuss
> > identity,
> > > > which
> > > > > > > >>> is what the narcissist will defend to the end, needing to be
> > > > right,
> > > > > > > >>> see others as wrong and so on. How we create our identities
> > has
> > > > a
> > > > > > > >>> direct relationship to consciousness, because as more of our
> > > > > > > >>> consciousness is found in the infinite, and less in
> > limitations,
> > > > we
> > > > > > > >>> quite naturally let go of our stories, identity, our values -
> > > > and they
> > > > > > > >>> are aligned with the eternal. We are by design, both finite
> > and
> > > > > > > >>> infinite. Our identities are steeped in duality and
> > limitation.
> > > > > > > >>> After a long day a work, a good comedy routine can help shed
> > all
> > > > the
> > > > > > > >>> tensions of the day, and restore my harmony. Resting
> > > > my(our)self(ves)
> > > > > > > >>> in the paradox of the one and the many brings a good nights
> > > > sleep.
>
> > > > > > > >>> On Feb 24, 4:06 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>> > Molly made the point in another thread that we conflate
> > > > individuality
> > > > > > > >>> > with what is really a world-view. Most of us like to
> > think
> > > > we have
> > > > > > > >>> > a good quota of individuality - but then express this as
> > > > dedicated
> > > > > > > >>> > followers of fashion. I know as a teacher that trying to
> > set
> > > > up
> > > > > > > >>> > lessons that students really take hold of and do their own
> > > > thing in
> > > > > > > >>> > relies an having some pretty unusual people in. Most
> > students
> > > > claim
> > > > > > > >>> > to want to do their own thing, but the vast majority will
> > do no
> > > > > > > >>> > constructive work (even against my open standards on what
> > this
> > > > can
> > > > > > > be)
> > > > > > > >>> > if they have to organise it themselves. US society is
> > often
> > > > claimed
> > > > > > > >>> > to be the most individualistic in the world - yet look at
> > the
> > > > > > > >>> > organisation in American Football.
>
> > > > > > > >>> > My own view is that our lack of individuality actually
> > arises
> > > > from
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>> > promulgation of celebrity, either as in mad political
> > cults or
> > > > via
> > > > > > > >>> > 'International Hollywood'. An example of the first is
> > North
> > > > Korea
> > > > > > > >>> > and, of course, we are the prime example of the latter. In
> > > > our case,
> > > > > > > >>> > the ready-to-hand of ADMASS means we have almost no real
> > public
> > > > > > > >>> > dialogue as everything is mediated through the crass world
> > > > view and
> > > > > > > >>> > most people have soaked this up as their individuality.
> > Quine
> > > > made
> > > > > > > >>> > the point long ago that the notion of evidence is difficult
> > > > because
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > >>> > something like this. People think the evidence has come
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > > > >>> > outside, when in fact they only deal with what has
> > impinged and
> > > > > > > >>> > networked in the world-view they have soaked up.
>
> > > > > > > >>> > There's a classic example of this about at the moment.
> > It's
> > > > debt and
> > > > > > > >>> > the way we construe the term in the way we think about
> > > > household debt
> > > > > > > >>> > as the same as this economic-bankster stuff. Normal
> > dialogue
> > > > is
> > > > > > > >>> > impossible because most people can't understand the
> > language
> > > > because
> > > > > > > >>> > they have never invested the
>
> ...
>
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