You might want to try learning to embrace that too.
Am 29.02.2012 23:56 schrieb "Molly" <mollyb363@gmail.com>:
did you tell one?
On Feb 29, 4:09 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Puh, Molly, the "because it also brings joy" is like explaining why you
> should laugh about my funny joke.
>
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> On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The wrath of Christ toward the money changers in the temple is
> > repeated in us until recognized. Recognition is the key. the
> > rational mind will always reason and compare because that is the
> > necessary function of it. When we base our identity in these
> > comparisons, we limit our own natures, because they are limited.
> > Witnessing not only what we think about, the form of the thought, but
> > how we think, our thinking processes, is what gets us beyond the
> > limitation of thinking. We get beyond with recognition. Experiencing
> > the world with a silent mind is like standing on the best viewpoint in
> > the Grand Canyon. Exhilarating. Being able to maintain a quiet mind
> > the majority of the time requires not only recognition (and
> > detachment) of thought, but the process of thinking. Thinking doesn't
> > stop. We stop basing our identities in it, and we use it less.
>
> > Few things bring us to the recognition of our experience beyond
> > thought like a good laugh, because it also brings joy.
>
> > On Feb 27, 1:49 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I don't disagree with Molly, though I was just presenting what her
> > > words 'rang' in me. My belief is that consciousness in used too
> > > infrequently - the basics of the mess of our communities and people is
> > > unconscious and broadly animal (the mess includes some good stuff).
> > > Consciousness is too easily overcome by cunning, and, as Molly says,
> > > narcissism.
> > > What has struck me for a long time is how difficult it is to present
> > > argument because it's too difficult to get anyone to take part
> > > 'honestly' - this is particularly difficult for teachers these days!
> > > In some areas, I have stopped thinking in standard ways - gender is an
> > > example. I tend to see in terms of certain types being fascinated by
> > > trinkets, fashion, gossip - one could imagine a shaggy dog story here
> > > in which these types all turn out to be women - but honestly that's
> > > not what I mean. I'm not interested in my identity as a man - but in
> > > terms of what I'm able to be and do - maleness is largely a
> > > constraint, animal and not much I want. The opportunities for
> > > identity seem very much off-the-peg and already detailed to copy. One
> > > modern identity that interests me is that of the 'empty creditor' -
> > > those who bring bankruptcy about through derivatives wangles. Some of
> > > my students clearly see such as models to copy - shrewd in money-
> > > making. The image of this identity in me is more one of the vile
> > > usurer demanding sex through threats of eviction in silent film. The
> > > apparatchiks quickly became entrepreneurchiks once Soviet rhetoric
> > > gave way to World Bank trash. There is surely a false individualism
> > > that is merely chameleon-like? And soul is denied RP. I suspect mine
> > > troubles me and I don't not welcome that given what I see around me!
>
> > > On Feb 26, 3:53 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > The thes [THEs] that define this may come in undivided by duality, what
> > > > they have been multiplied with is to be experienced nevertheless.
>
> > > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 3:25 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > The one who is aware of oneself and the others is the individual --
> > > > > and that cannot be without consciousness. The one that is unconscious
> > > > > is not an individual but the Soul from which all the individualities
> > > > > emanate. The identity is just the covering of an individuality.
>
> > > > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 7:33 PM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > Ideas of identity are related to matter - I allow that to happen
> > every
> > > > > > night.
>
> > > > > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 2:40 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > > > >> I know my view is not that of the world.. if it was there would
> > have
> > > > > >> been massive changes long ago,, the best I can hope for is to
> > ask the
> > > > > right
> > > > > >> questions, throw out some ideas,, in talking with young people
> > and
> > > > > >> hopefully they may start thinking and come up with ideas that they
> > > > > might be
> > > > > >> able to bring about change.. they are the one that have the
> > > > > responsibility
> > > > > >> now. My role at best would be of that of an elder.
>
> > > > > >> I do know you can not pay off debt with more debt. all though
> > people
> > > > > will
> > > > > >> try to convince you that you can do it with poverty. whether they
> > like
> > > > > it or
> > > > > >> not their souls are at risk.
>
> > > > > >> Our ideas need to be put out there for examination whether they
> > are
> > > > > right
> > > > > >> or wrong, it doesn't matter..
> > > > > >> Allan
>
> > > > > >> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > > > >>> If what is on either side of the equal sign goes both ways, your
> > > > > >>> interpretation of my statement would be accurate. I think I was
> > > > > >>> saying that we confuse our world view for what is in actuality,
> > our
> > > > > >>> individual view. In other words, we sometimes think the whole
> > world
> > > > > >>> has a view that is actually just ours in the moment. There is a
> > > > > >>> narcissistic psychology to this that seems to be prevalent in
> > those
> > > > > >>> that need to feel themselves "right" or superior or more
> > powerful.
> > > > > >>> I've also found it interesting that everyone else in the room can
> > > > > >>> sometimes see it, but the person espousing. A good absurd joke
> > can
> > > > > >>> bust through that illusion and humble us in a way that brings us
> > to
> > > > > >>> the point of knowing that we know nothing, it is all a matter of
> > view.
>
> > > > > >>> To discuss individuality, we should probably discuss identity,
> > which
> > > > > >>> is what the narcissist will defend to the end, needing to be
> > right,
> > > > > >>> see others as wrong and so on. How we create our identities has
> > a
> > > > > >>> direct relationship to consciousness, because as more of our
> > > > > >>> consciousness is found in the infinite, and less in limitations,
> > we
> > > > > >>> quite naturally let go of our stories, identity, our values -
> > and they
> > > > > >>> are aligned with the eternal. We are by design, both finite and
> > > > > >>> infinite. Our identities are steeped in duality and limitation.
> > > > > >>> After a long day a work, a good comedy routine can help shed all
> > the
> > > > > >>> tensions of the day, and restore my harmony. Resting
> > my(our)self(ves)
> > > > > >>> in the paradox of the one and the many brings a good nights
> > sleep.
>
> > > > > >>> On Feb 24, 4:06 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >>> > Molly made the point in another thread that we conflate
> > individuality
> > > > > >>> > with what is really a world-view. Most of us like to think
> > we have
> > > > > >>> > a good quota of individuality - but then express this as
> > dedicated
> > > > > >>> > followers of fashion. I know as a teacher that trying to set
> > up
> > > > > >>> > lessons that students really take hold of and do their own
> > thing in
> > > > > >>> > relies an having some pretty unusual people in. Most students
> > claim
> > > > > >>> > to want to do their own thing, but the vast majority will do no
> > > > > >>> > constructive work (even against my open standards on what this
> > can
> > > > > be)
> > > > > >>> > if they have to organise it themselves. US society is often
> > claimed
> > > > > >>> > to be the most individualistic in the world - yet look at the
> > > > > >>> > organisation in American Football.
>
> > > > > >>> > My own view is that our lack of individuality actually arises
> > from
> > > > > the
> > > > > >>> > promulgation of celebrity, either as in mad political cults or
> > via
> > > > > >>> > 'International Hollywood'. An example of the first is North
> > Korea
> > > > > >>> > and, of course, we are the prime example of the latter. In
> > our case,
> > > > > >>> > the ready-to-hand of ADMASS means we have almost no real public
> > > > > >>> > dialogue as everything is mediated through the crass world
> > view and
> > > > > >>> > most people have soaked this up as their individuality. Quine
> > made
> > > > > >>> > the point long ago that the notion of evidence is difficult
> > because
> > > > > of
> > > > > >>> > something like this. People think the evidence has come from
> > the
> > > > > >>> > outside, when in fact they only deal with what has impinged and
> > > > > >>> > networked in the world-view they have soaked up.
>
> > > > > >>> > There's a classic example of this about at the moment. It's
> > debt and
> > > > > >>> > the way we construe the term in the way we think about
> > household debt
> > > > > >>> > as the same as this economic-bankster stuff. Normal dialogue
> > is
> > > > > >>> > impossible because most people can't understand the language
> > because
> > > > > >>> > they have never invested the effort to get beyond an imprinted
> > self.
>
> > > > > >>> > Much has been written on this, usually under the guise of
> > paradigms -
> > > > > >>> > with the idea that we can learn different ones in external
> > language.
> > > > > >>> > This seems a non-starter for me, as at least 85% of "language"
> > is
> > > > > non-
> > > > > >>> > verbal and huge amounts manipulative. I would contend that
> > > > > >>> > individualism is the curse of our times and exemplified by such
> > > > > >>> > discussions as whether bankers and sports stars are worth their
> > > > > riches
> > > > > >>> > - always discussed in the paradigm of an individual
> > meritocracy that
> > > > > >>> > goes unchallenged. From other perspectives the presence of
> > these
> > > > > >>> > "individuals" is evidence of what they system produces and
> > reason
> > > > > >>> > enough to change it.
>
> > > > > >> --
> > > > > >> (
> > > > > >> )
> > > > > >> |_D Allan
>
> > > > > >> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
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