Monday, October 31, 2011

Re: [MSUAtheists]:636 Vegetarian Debate

Oops... it's actually at 5:30.... but allthe other info is correct.
 
jen

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 11:45 AM, Chris D. <anauthenticatheist@gmail.com> wrote:
The vegetarian vs meat debate is tuesday (tomorrow) at 5pm at McCool
124.  It's a debate of professors, so it should be pretty good. I'll
probably show up just because it's something I know very little about.

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Re: [MSUAtheists]:635 Vegetarian Debate

come come... be there or... well, i guess you could go to dinner... but it'd be cool if you guys were there ;)
 
jen

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Chris Ramos <m74z00219@gmail.com> wrote:
This does sound interesting.  I'll try to make an appearance as well.

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 11:45 AM, Chris D. <anauthenticatheist@gmail.com> wrote:
> The vegetarian vs meat debate is tuesday (tomorrow) at 5pm at McCool
> 124.  It's a debate of professors, so it should be pretty good. I'll
> probably show up just because it's something I know very little about.
>
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-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----

GS d- s+: a- C++ W++ w M+ !tv e+++ >H++ Sp++ SF++

------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------
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Re: [MSUAtheists]:634 Vegetarian Debate

This does sound interesting. I'll try to make an appearance as well.

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 11:45 AM, Chris D. <anauthenticatheist@gmail.com> wrote:
> The vegetarian vs meat debate is tuesday (tomorrow) at 5pm at McCool
> 124.  It's a debate of professors, so it should be pretty good. I'll
> probably show up just because it's something I know very little about.
>
> --
> Thank you for subscribing to the Freethinkers, Agnostics, and Atheists of MSU mailing list.
>
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>
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> msuatheists+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/msuatheists?hl=en
>

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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------
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[Mind's Eye] Re: Machines Of Loving Grace

Have to agree Chris. We have vicars resigning over OccX around St.
Pauls. We once had Wycliffe preaching that Christ did not own the
clothes he wore (13th century) - they dug up his bones and burned them
for 'saying' that. Rigsy sounds like the 'pious' passer-by on this
topic - something that doesn't fit with my feelings about her. we
watched while they took away the disabled, then the gypsies, then the
nay sayers and then the Jews -who would be left when they came for us
sort of stuff.
I'm honestly getting round to thinking what I normally consider as
conspiracy (I prosecuted a lot of people for conspiracy) may be true
rather than just a good yarn - Churchill as a bag man for JP Morgan,
Blair the same and the USA merely a pawn in the rise of banksterism
that could see more profit in a US empire it could control than in
various species of European imperialism.

The key positive is ensuring decent living standards for all that are
also about changing how we consume, breed and other 'green' nettles we
hardly dare admit let alone grasp. The combination of education and
the kind of medical treatment that stops kids dying works in
population control (with remarkably few exceptions - both sexes give
up pressurised breed if they know the kids they do have will live. We
do not need to produce more and more idiot western lifestyles and we
don't really (mostly) live them anyway. In terms of 'work' I doubt
more than a few modern westerners have much clue what it is and has
been for many. I've come across many wuckfits who believe their 9 - 4
in the office was hard graft. Most of what's being done now is
neurotic or serf-like. The morality of selling is almost non-
existent.

On Oct 31, 12:45 pm, Chris Jenkins <digitalprecip...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think it's passive to say that current economics doesn't provide
> much...rather, the current economics provides strong incentives to treat
> others poorly. Agents Provocateur are the order of the day in #OWS:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VIpIKrh7Z8
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 12:39 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Sorry about the lapsed video link.  They are around on the net.  I
> > suspect the machine is banking and war and we suppose it something
> > other.  I'm not sure we are free as rigsy says - rather just lucky to
> > be free of interesting times.  I was thinking of Camus watching some
> > stuff on OccupyX -
>
> >http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/10/ows-guest-post-denver-police-u...
>
> > High in the list of my values is the treatment of others (which in a
> > sense is elitist) and I don't believe current economics provides
> > much.  It seems to me many have forgotten that their freedoms were won
> > bu others,
>
> > On Oct 30, 11:55 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > "Even God cannot change the past." Agathon (448 B.C.-400 B.C.)
>
> > > We are eventually free to establish our own values and lifestyle- if
> > > we are lucky- and it sounds as if you are one of the lucky ones as we
> > > type on computers constructed via slave labor to communicate our
> > > opinions and struggles.
>
> > > Around the beginning of the 20th Century, manufacturers accepted the
> > > idea of making products that would soon be obsolete and need to be
> > > replaced rather than repaired which has resulted in a toss-away
> > > consumer society that is drenched in wastefulness. I think the idea
> > > was first promoted by advertisers who were eager for steady income.
> > > Replacement has become a broader fact- from mates to warfare.
>
> > > On Oct 29, 11:01 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I don't recall the exact quote from Camus, Neil, in his "Rebel"...
>
> > > > We are living in times when the same usurpers, oligarchs, power
> > > > brokers, Free Capitalists and State Capitalists... use values that
> > > > appeal to people, take positions that make people feel good, espouse
> > > > causes and show generosities... when all that is on their mind is how
> > > > to extract more from the people, how to make laws more capital,
> > > > priviledged and owner friendly ( yeah, the fkg Motor Act in India is
> > > > still of colonial vantage, when the motors on the roads were owned
> > > > mainly by the British... you don't need to commit any murders at all,
> > > > just mow them on the road, and escape with at most as light a sentence
> > > > as mere 2 years of simple imprisonment ! ), how to consolidate and
> > > > cartelise the supply chain or distribution structures for essential
> > > > commodities, so as to create scarcities and raise prices at will...
> > > > control power... control money... control legislation... control
> > > > supply and demand... control...
>
> > > > As a result, people have come to believe that the 80% of the economy
> > > > looped in to serve 20% of the population is alright, that millionaires
> > > > constituting 50% of People's Representatives is alright, that there is
> > > > something sacrosanct about property and shall-do-as-I-wish rights,
> > > > that accepting money means that people have to surrender their freedom
> > > > and needless dignity, that basketfuls of cake and food reject in waste
> > > > bin from wealthy mansions is okay when thousands are hungry... and if
> > > > you stand to question and protest over such gross social inequality,
> > > > such political misrepresentation, such blatant economic inequity...
> > > > you are actually shown the law, the law and order enforcement might,
> > > > the feudal norms and ethics, and told "look at the others, how they
> > > > are not about creating problems" !
>
> > > > You then have only one option... which you will soon be advised even
> > > > by your parents and well-wishers... to join them. After all, even you
> > > > have it all... if you study and work hard, with dedication... et al.
>
> > > > The fun starts, rather the mayhem, when you see no reason to join
> > > > them, to have all that "they" have. At that stage you have already
> > > > discovered the new paradigm for yourself. It happened with me in
> > > > 1997... when I looked up to my boss' position and clearly saw that I
> > > > didn't want it ! Lived hand to mouth for about 2 years... made demands
> > > > on friends without a qualm... until the consulting work got
> > > > acknowledged... and then I've practically retired for an otherwise
> > > > very active life.
>
> > > > On Oct 30, 4:32 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Sorry your video is currently not available..  will try later I did
> > some
> > > > > looking up to understand the raping of Nang I have actually known
> > about for
> > > > > a long time ,, seems even before the internet why I don't recall any
> > more..
> > > > >  Maybe it is from the horrible abuse and treatment of the american
> > Indian
> > > > > by my own government. and other minorities..
>
> > > > > I think people want to believe the soft sell packaged lies..  people
> > > > > apparently prefer to live in fear  and accept lies rather than face
> > the
> > > > > truth..  as for governments that color truth worse is it the USA or
> > > > > Great Britain? Both Countries seem to bury their heads in the sand
> > when it
> > > > > comes to coloring their history. still am trying  to figure out
> > > > > the British empire.
>
> > > > > Hopefully the Occupy Movement will have some effect positive I hope
> >  if the
> > > > > one percent want to control the wealth and government   they at
> > least to
> > > > > bear their fair share of the expenses  based on percentage of
> > ownership.
> > > > > Allan
>
> > > > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 7:51 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > The current crisis is not one of banking or economics, but
> > something
> > > > > > much more basic.  One might say this is our attitude towards
> > 'machines
> > > > > > of loving grace'.  In short, we live in the fantasy that "the
> > machine"
> > > > > > will put things right, returning to an equilibrium as our
> > > > > > interventions are little more than 'of mice and men'. The real
> > world
> > > > > > of the environment and the exchange world of economics return to
> > > > > > equilibrium after fluctuations.  It's very tempting to believe
> > this -
> > > > > > one might see Gaia as a case in point - the planet and other
> > species
> > > > > > flourishing after we've crazed ourselves to extinction through
> > > > > > consumption and wars.
>
> > > > > > You can pick up the ideas of 'all watched over by machines of
> > loving
> > > > > > grace' here -
>
> >http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/2160186460/All-Watched-Over-By-M...
>
> > > > > > A review with an economic twist can be found here -
>
> >http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/10/the-natural-chaos-of-markets.html
>
> > > > > > My own work has often focused on the difference between espoused
> > > > > > theories and theories-in-action.  In some subjects like chemistry
> > the
> > > > > > relationship between theory and practice is good - if you follow
> > the
> > > > > > rules and recipes you get what you intended and the explanations
> > make
> > > > > > sense if you study enough.  There is a working core, you can trust
> > or
> > > > > > check the work of others and speculation can eventually be tested
> > on
> > > > > > what is not accepted as 'settled'.  In the human sciences this is
> > much
> > > > > > more difficult, not least because we do not exclude much in human
> > > > > > society that prevents science.  Few of us have much aptitude for
> > > > > > science, perhaps especially for its negation of ideology soaked up
> > > > > > from community.
>
> > > > > > I always noted as a teacher that I was more comfortable saying 'you
> > > > > > just can't handle the maths' (unlikely for me as I'd teach people
> > like
> > > > > > that without the stuff), than in saying 'you just don't get
> > argument
> > > > > > because you can't let go of any prejudice'.  Teaching people to
> > think
> > > > > > for themselves contains a paradox.  One finds much one is expected
> > to
> > > > > > teach based on dross.  I know of no country in which history is
> > taught
> > > > > > without gross ideological distortion.  We hear the Japanese rip out
> > > > > > pages in textbooks on the 'rape of Nanking' yet it's rare to find
> > > > > > Brits who know much of our squalid imperialism and involvement in
> > much
> > > > > > similar.  In the middle east you will find a more accurate picture
> > of
> > > > > > the Crusades than we get, but the Jihad that is the mirror image is
> > > > > > revered.
>
> > > > > > Most people like to imagine themselves as individual, but if we're
> > > > > > honest we are subjects of machines of loving grace.  One makes
> > one's
> > > > > > way in an economy (machine) on a planet (environmental machine).  I
> > > > > > think these are only "machines" because we don't examine them.
> > > > > > Examination often ends in paradox - logical positivism eventually
> > > > > > conceded its own quest to extirpate metaphysics was - oops -
> > > > > > metaphysical.  My own guess is that rigorous thinking seeks to
> > > > > > discover and eliminate dross - this involves a great deal of
> > courage
> > > > > > in accepting you are likely made of same oneself!
>
> > > > > > I'm a maverick systems theorist and conceive of our
> > social-political
> > > > > > arguments (and the systems themselves) as houses of cards.  one
> > looks
> > > > > > for the soft spots that can bring the lot down or as places to put
> > in
> > > > > > effort to keep the ball rolling.  No argument survives this process
> > > > > > more than twenty seconds with such soft spots arising.  Most don't
> > > > > > have either the energy or tools to keep going and run to the
> > 'bliss'
> > > > > > of the machine (religion, patriotism, left and right etc.).  We are
> > > > > > thus robots of one 'machine' or another, not individuals, hardly
> > > > > > people if we're not
>
> ...
>
> read more »

CAN WASHINGTON ALLOW AFGHAN TALIBAN BACK, MINUS AL QAEDA?

Can Washington Allow Afghan Taliban Back, Minus Al Qaeda? To be certain, America is confused, baffled and may be even disoriented. Richard Holbrooke, special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, has reportedly opened up his channels with Gulbadin Hekmatyar. Remember, in 2002, CIA-controlled MQ-1 Predator fired a Hellfire missile on Gulbuddin's vehicle but missed. Then on February 19, 2003, US Department of Treasury designated Gulbuddin a 'global terrorist'. And now, the special representative is negotiating with a 'global terrorist'.

image001

By Dr. Farrukh Saleem
Sunday, May 17, 2009
The News International.

WWW.AHMEDQURAISHI.COM

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan—General David Howell Petraeus, the 10th Commander of the US Central Command (CENTCOM), has negotiated, bargained and networked with Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan. General Petraeus, in his desperate search for an alternative supply route, went as far as Latvia.

The top graduate of the US Army Command and General Staff College — class of 1983 — and the winner of the General George C Marshall Award hasn't met with much success lately.

Yes, there have been minor — strategically inconsequential — delights. General Petraeus did manage a deal with Kazakhstan for oil and another one with Latvia for 100 containers a day on a 4,000 km journey to the Kandahar Air Base. On May 11, President Islam Karimov of Uzbekistan announced that his country has begun "shipping non-military supplies to NATO forces in Afghanistan through its airport in the city of Navoi." Yes, there have also been major — strategically consequential — disappointments. Kyrgyzstan took a hefty $2 billion from Russia and in return put General Petraeus on notice to vacate the Manas Air Base (Uzbekistan had told the US to vacate the Karshi-Khanabad Air Base some four years ago).

What is General Petraeus now left with? Four things: one, Pakistan's National Highway N-5. From Karachi, Hyderabad, Moro and Khairpur a total of 671 km all of which is safe from outside attacks. N-5 then enters Multan on to Sahiwal, Lahore, Gujranwala, Gujrat, Jhelum and Rawalpindi, a total of 1,021 km all of which is safe. N-5 then crosses the Indus River into Nowshera, Peshawar and then Torkham, a total of 127 km almost all of which is extremely vulnerable. Two, Pakistan's Indus Highway or N-55. From Karachi to Peshawar via Kotri, Dadu, Shikarpur, Kashmor, Dera Ghazi Khan, Dera Ismail Khan, Lakki Marwat, Bannu, Kohat and into Peshawar. Three, Pakistan's RCD Highway or N-25. From Karachi to Chaman via Hub, Bela, Khuzdar, Quetta to Chamman and then into Kandahar; a total of 813 km almost all of it is secure except for when it crosses the border into Afghanistan (there has been a recent connection to Gwadar). Four, Pakistani refineries producing most of the jet fuel for NATO forces.

What is America doing in Afghanistan? Operation Enduring Freedom was launched on October 7, 2001. The stated casus belli, or reasons for war, were: one, to remove the Taliban regime from power (because the Taliban had provided a safe sanctuary to Al Qaeda). Two, to capture Osama bin Laden. Three, to destroy Al Qaeda. Where does America stand now? The Taliban regime is no more but Osama continues to be on the loose and Al Qaeda is still ticking and kicking.

To be certainAmerica is confused, baffled and may be even disoriented. Richard Holbrooke, special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, has reportedly opened up his channels with Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. Remember, in 2002, CIA-controlled MQ-1 Predator fired a Hellfire missile on Gulbuddin's vehicle but missed. Then on February 19, 2003, US Department of Treasury designated Gulbuddin a 'global terrorist'. And now, the special representative is negotiating with a 'global terrorist'.
Is America really puzzled? Over the past year, there have been a handful of reviews of America's Afghan policy — one after another. On June 3, 2008, the Department of Defence ordered General David McKiernan to take over the command of NATO's International Security Assistance Force (ISAF). On May 11, McKiernan having served for less than a year was asked by Defence Secretary Robert Gates to resign.
General Petraeus, beaming from his success in Iraq, is adamant on replicating his Iraq experience. President Obama, on the other hand, does not want to make Afghanistan as the centerpiece of his presidency. There is evidence that Obama and Robert Gates are both at odds with Petraeus. Where does America go from here? Would America let the Taliban back to power in exchange for throwing Al Qaeda out of Afghanistan? Where would America go from here?

PS: The president of Pakistan was at Elysee Palace. The president of Pakistan should have been in Takht Bhai at the Jalala Camp. The president of Pakistan was at Number 10 Downing Street inside the residence of the First Lord of the Treasury. The president of Pakistan should have been in Sheikh Yasin Town inside the Sheikh Yasin Camp. The president of Pakistan is all over but not where he should be. The president of Pakistan is where he is not needed and not where he is really needed.


This article was published by The News International. The writer is the executive director of the Centre for Research and Security Studies (CRSS). Email: farrukh15AThotmail.com

© 2007-2009. All rights reserved. AhmedQuraishi.com PakNationalists

Verbatim copying and distribution of this entire article is permitted in any medium

without royalty provided this notice is preserved.





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US RESPONSIBLE FOR PAKISTANS PLIGHT: GULBADIN HIKMATYAR



GulbadinHikmatyar

Engineer Gulbadin Hikmatyar, Afghanistans former prime minister and head of his own faction of the Hizb-e -Islami, an active insurgent group fighting against US-led forces, has said that the US was responsible of all the problems facing Pakistan.

According to a message issued here on the occasion of tenth anniversary of US invasion of Afghanistan, the insurgent leader said, Pakistan was being blamed by the Americans despite the fact that the country facilitated US attack on Afghanistan.It is beyond understanding, he added.

Pakistan launched military campaigns in swat, Bajaur, Mohmand Agecny and other areas but still it is blamed for supporting US opponents , the insurgent leader said.

He said that had Pakistan not facilitated US invasion of Afghanistan ,the Americans could not have occupied Afghanistan. Hikmatyar said that his group was ready to facilitate the US drawdown from Afghanistan, adding that if the US decided to continue fight, people of Afghanistan were ready to fight.

He further added that Americans would not benefit from the occupation rather Iran and Russia would exploit the situation.




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ANALYZING THE WHIMS OF A DECAYING AMERICAN EMPIRE

ANALYZING THE WHIMS OF A DECAYING AMERICAN EMPIRE

by Zaki Khalid

US is sinkingWhat happens when you get stunned after realizing you were slowly and gradually burying yourself underground to the point that you choke yourself to death? Naturally you would start exasperating with full force to prevent self-immolation. Such is the case with the United States of America. This country of great people and equally greater devils has been at the mercy of its secret powerhouse of totalitarian bankers, corporate mafia, the military industrial complex and most importantly, the neoconservative warmongers who devise aggressive policies and hate-literature for sugar-coated evangelical Crusaders in the name of "War on Terror". Its statesmen and officials have become so frustrated by a group of devout resistance leaders in Afghanistan that in reactionary panic they have resorted to bullying Pakistan, whom they once labeled as their close ally.

Historically speaking, this has revealed itself to be the prime instigator for America's military adventurism abroad. Be it against Russia via Poland, against China and North Korea via South Korea, against Saudi Arabia via Yemen, against Pakistan via Afghanistan or even against Venezuela via Colombia. The list is endless. Pompous analysts in the Pakistani media who on the one hand repeatedly mock at the Pakistan Army and it's "Ghairat Brigade" of formulating strategies that are in favor of national interests forget to mention or let alone recall the fact that since the '60s, American geostrategy has been under the guidance of many successive generations of policy makers who were heavily inspired by the methodologies of Henry Kissinger and Zbigniew Brzezinski; the former being a majestic guardian of Israeli interests and the latter being one of the most despised imperial-minded strategist the world has yet seen. Even today, if we note from the Bush Jr. era onwards, American foreign and defence policies have been proposed by intellectuals whose focus was Asia and its occupation: gaining control of a vast continent rich with countless minerals (gold, copper), natural resources (oil, gas, drugs) and most importantly, the waterways.

The corridor to Asia is the state of Pakistan. Additionally, the country itself is filled with many resources. America's pursuit for "9/11 masterminds" in Afghanistan was merely for control of the country's vast poppy supplies and to get a better access to neighboring Pakistan, both covertly and overtly. For the notorious CIA, Afghanistan was always the market (for cultivating and processing opium for drugs) and Pakistan was always the target. After a decade of occupation terrorism in Afghanistan, NATO and the US have finally started shifting their focus upon Pakistan but through a slow and steady pace so as not to incite global suspicion on the latter's regional motives. General (R) Musharraf was a golden boy for the Pentagon, General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani is a man of totally opposite characteristics, thinking and ambition. Unlike his counterparts in the West, General Kayani has maintained a silent and soft approach to the onslaught of criticism based on malicious propaganda. Similarly, Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha of the ISI has resorted to silence during the hullaballoo among red-faced American Congressmen and military officials. As they say, the best way for a wise man to ignore stupidity is to keep silent and continue with his work.

Propaganda reaches climax when it turns into a severe attempt at reviling an institute. Pakistan's premier intelligence agency has been made the focus of BBC's latest documentary "Secret Pakistan", in which some unknown would-be suicide bombers "confessed" that they allegedly received training, funding and logistics by the ISI. It is simply absurd to even think that die-hard religious zealots who went ahead to strap explosive belts on their bodies would leave everything aside, go into hiding but later decide to take the risk of giving a statement to "kaafir" media. The killing of Saleem Shehzad, assassination of Burhanuddin Rabbani and simultaneous defeat for the US and its allies at the hands of tribal warriors all have been blamed on Pakistan's security agencies, which makes us wonder: Why doesn't the US accept defeat? The answer, well, lies in the fact that when it comes to countries, pride hath a fall but not a reversal. The economic fall is being noticed through the expansion of the "Occupy Wall Street" movement. Although the American Empire plans to drastically escape from Afghanistan in immediate phases one after the other, it will never accept defeat. Its magnanimous charm and deceitful twisting of words will let it maintain the false impression that they are the "Harbinger of Freedom". This again, thanks to the corporate media in the West and certain news channels in Pakistan whose owners seem to have a certain affinity for the well-being of America's image.

What the media shows can be true and false. The prevailing shifts in South Asian geopolitics and the incessant rise in global resentment against war taking place through protests and rallies will eventually prove it is the United States military and the CIA which is the root cause of all terrorism we see around the world today, not Pakistan.

The writer is a geopolitical analyst and commentator based in Lahore





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Shahzad Shameem

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