Pauls. We once had Wycliffe preaching that Christ did not own the
clothes he wore (13th century) - they dug up his bones and burned them
for 'saying' that. Rigsy sounds like the 'pious' passer-by on this
topic - something that doesn't fit with my feelings about her. we
watched while they took away the disabled, then the gypsies, then the
nay sayers and then the Jews -who would be left when they came for us
sort of stuff.
I'm honestly getting round to thinking what I normally consider as
conspiracy (I prosecuted a lot of people for conspiracy) may be true
rather than just a good yarn - Churchill as a bag man for JP Morgan,
Blair the same and the USA merely a pawn in the rise of banksterism
that could see more profit in a US empire it could control than in
various species of European imperialism.
The key positive is ensuring decent living standards for all that are
also about changing how we consume, breed and other 'green' nettles we
hardly dare admit let alone grasp. The combination of education and
the kind of medical treatment that stops kids dying works in
population control (with remarkably few exceptions - both sexes give
up pressurised breed if they know the kids they do have will live. We
do not need to produce more and more idiot western lifestyles and we
don't really (mostly) live them anyway. In terms of 'work' I doubt
more than a few modern westerners have much clue what it is and has
been for many. I've come across many wuckfits who believe their 9 - 4
in the office was hard graft. Most of what's being done now is
neurotic or serf-like. The morality of selling is almost non-
existent.
On Oct 31, 12:45 pm, Chris Jenkins <digitalprecip...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think it's passive to say that current economics doesn't provide
> much...rather, the current economics provides strong incentives to treat
> others poorly. Agents Provocateur are the order of the day in #OWS:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VIpIKrh7Z8
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 12:39 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Sorry about the lapsed video link. They are around on the net. I
> > suspect the machine is banking and war and we suppose it something
> > other. I'm not sure we are free as rigsy says - rather just lucky to
> > be free of interesting times. I was thinking of Camus watching some
> > stuff on OccupyX -
>
> >http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/10/ows-guest-post-denver-police-u...
>
> > High in the list of my values is the treatment of others (which in a
> > sense is elitist) and I don't believe current economics provides
> > much. It seems to me many have forgotten that their freedoms were won
> > bu others,
>
> > On Oct 30, 11:55 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > "Even God cannot change the past." Agathon (448 B.C.-400 B.C.)
>
> > > We are eventually free to establish our own values and lifestyle- if
> > > we are lucky- and it sounds as if you are one of the lucky ones as we
> > > type on computers constructed via slave labor to communicate our
> > > opinions and struggles.
>
> > > Around the beginning of the 20th Century, manufacturers accepted the
> > > idea of making products that would soon be obsolete and need to be
> > > replaced rather than repaired which has resulted in a toss-away
> > > consumer society that is drenched in wastefulness. I think the idea
> > > was first promoted by advertisers who were eager for steady income.
> > > Replacement has become a broader fact- from mates to warfare.
>
> > > On Oct 29, 11:01 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I don't recall the exact quote from Camus, Neil, in his "Rebel"...
>
> > > > We are living in times when the same usurpers, oligarchs, power
> > > > brokers, Free Capitalists and State Capitalists... use values that
> > > > appeal to people, take positions that make people feel good, espouse
> > > > causes and show generosities... when all that is on their mind is how
> > > > to extract more from the people, how to make laws more capital,
> > > > priviledged and owner friendly ( yeah, the fkg Motor Act in India is
> > > > still of colonial vantage, when the motors on the roads were owned
> > > > mainly by the British... you don't need to commit any murders at all,
> > > > just mow them on the road, and escape with at most as light a sentence
> > > > as mere 2 years of simple imprisonment ! ), how to consolidate and
> > > > cartelise the supply chain or distribution structures for essential
> > > > commodities, so as to create scarcities and raise prices at will...
> > > > control power... control money... control legislation... control
> > > > supply and demand... control...
>
> > > > As a result, people have come to believe that the 80% of the economy
> > > > looped in to serve 20% of the population is alright, that millionaires
> > > > constituting 50% of People's Representatives is alright, that there is
> > > > something sacrosanct about property and shall-do-as-I-wish rights,
> > > > that accepting money means that people have to surrender their freedom
> > > > and needless dignity, that basketfuls of cake and food reject in waste
> > > > bin from wealthy mansions is okay when thousands are hungry... and if
> > > > you stand to question and protest over such gross social inequality,
> > > > such political misrepresentation, such blatant economic inequity...
> > > > you are actually shown the law, the law and order enforcement might,
> > > > the feudal norms and ethics, and told "look at the others, how they
> > > > are not about creating problems" !
>
> > > > You then have only one option... which you will soon be advised even
> > > > by your parents and well-wishers... to join them. After all, even you
> > > > have it all... if you study and work hard, with dedication... et al.
>
> > > > The fun starts, rather the mayhem, when you see no reason to join
> > > > them, to have all that "they" have. At that stage you have already
> > > > discovered the new paradigm for yourself. It happened with me in
> > > > 1997... when I looked up to my boss' position and clearly saw that I
> > > > didn't want it ! Lived hand to mouth for about 2 years... made demands
> > > > on friends without a qualm... until the consulting work got
> > > > acknowledged... and then I've practically retired for an otherwise
> > > > very active life.
>
> > > > On Oct 30, 4:32 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Sorry your video is currently not available.. will try later I did
> > some
> > > > > looking up to understand the raping of Nang I have actually known
> > about for
> > > > > a long time ,, seems even before the internet why I don't recall any
> > more..
> > > > > Maybe it is from the horrible abuse and treatment of the american
> > Indian
> > > > > by my own government. and other minorities..
>
> > > > > I think people want to believe the soft sell packaged lies.. people
> > > > > apparently prefer to live in fear and accept lies rather than face
> > the
> > > > > truth.. as for governments that color truth worse is it the USA or
> > > > > Great Britain? Both Countries seem to bury their heads in the sand
> > when it
> > > > > comes to coloring their history. still am trying to figure out
> > > > > the British empire.
>
> > > > > Hopefully the Occupy Movement will have some effect positive I hope
> > if the
> > > > > one percent want to control the wealth and government they at
> > least to
> > > > > bear their fair share of the expenses based on percentage of
> > ownership.
> > > > > Allan
>
> > > > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 7:51 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > The current crisis is not one of banking or economics, but
> > something
> > > > > > much more basic. One might say this is our attitude towards
> > 'machines
> > > > > > of loving grace'. In short, we live in the fantasy that "the
> > machine"
> > > > > > will put things right, returning to an equilibrium as our
> > > > > > interventions are little more than 'of mice and men'. The real
> > world
> > > > > > of the environment and the exchange world of economics return to
> > > > > > equilibrium after fluctuations. It's very tempting to believe
> > this -
> > > > > > one might see Gaia as a case in point - the planet and other
> > species
> > > > > > flourishing after we've crazed ourselves to extinction through
> > > > > > consumption and wars.
>
> > > > > > You can pick up the ideas of 'all watched over by machines of
> > loving
> > > > > > grace' here -
>
> >http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/2160186460/All-Watched-Over-By-M...
>
> > > > > > A review with an economic twist can be found here -
>
> >http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/10/the-natural-chaos-of-markets.html
>
> > > > > > My own work has often focused on the difference between espoused
> > > > > > theories and theories-in-action. In some subjects like chemistry
> > the
> > > > > > relationship between theory and practice is good - if you follow
> > the
> > > > > > rules and recipes you get what you intended and the explanations
> > make
> > > > > > sense if you study enough. There is a working core, you can trust
> > or
> > > > > > check the work of others and speculation can eventually be tested
> > on
> > > > > > what is not accepted as 'settled'. In the human sciences this is
> > much
> > > > > > more difficult, not least because we do not exclude much in human
> > > > > > society that prevents science. Few of us have much aptitude for
> > > > > > science, perhaps especially for its negation of ideology soaked up
> > > > > > from community.
>
> > > > > > I always noted as a teacher that I was more comfortable saying 'you
> > > > > > just can't handle the maths' (unlikely for me as I'd teach people
> > like
> > > > > > that without the stuff), than in saying 'you just don't get
> > argument
> > > > > > because you can't let go of any prejudice'. Teaching people to
> > think
> > > > > > for themselves contains a paradox. One finds much one is expected
> > to
> > > > > > teach based on dross. I know of no country in which history is
> > taught
> > > > > > without gross ideological distortion. We hear the Japanese rip out
> > > > > > pages in textbooks on the 'rape of Nanking' yet it's rare to find
> > > > > > Brits who know much of our squalid imperialism and involvement in
> > much
> > > > > > similar. In the middle east you will find a more accurate picture
> > of
> > > > > > the Crusades than we get, but the Jihad that is the mirror image is
> > > > > > revered.
>
> > > > > > Most people like to imagine themselves as individual, but if we're
> > > > > > honest we are subjects of machines of loving grace. One makes
> > one's
> > > > > > way in an economy (machine) on a planet (environmental machine). I
> > > > > > think these are only "machines" because we don't examine them.
> > > > > > Examination often ends in paradox - logical positivism eventually
> > > > > > conceded its own quest to extirpate metaphysics was - oops -
> > > > > > metaphysical. My own guess is that rigorous thinking seeks to
> > > > > > discover and eliminate dross - this involves a great deal of
> > courage
> > > > > > in accepting you are likely made of same oneself!
>
> > > > > > I'm a maverick systems theorist and conceive of our
> > social-political
> > > > > > arguments (and the systems themselves) as houses of cards. one
> > looks
> > > > > > for the soft spots that can bring the lot down or as places to put
> > in
> > > > > > effort to keep the ball rolling. No argument survives this process
> > > > > > more than twenty seconds with such soft spots arising. Most don't
> > > > > > have either the energy or tools to keep going and run to the
> > 'bliss'
> > > > > > of the machine (religion, patriotism, left and right etc.). We are
> > > > > > thus robots of one 'machine' or another, not individuals, hardly
> > > > > > people if we're not
>
> ...
>
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