Saturday, April 11, 2015

Re: Mind's Eye Re: Honest Alter Universes

The old goats are usually younger than me and you these days.  I wouldn't want to hurt anyone putting in effort and risk doing some real teaching, but I doubt Allan's "promise" that there are "many excellent schools".  We keep saying stuff like this as cops gun down another black guy, use mobile phones built on the bodies of kids at the bottom of a tin mine mud slide - add 1000 similar - and the "promise" is something like 'the system is really working, the failures are just aberrations'.

Molly's kids had Molly and her husband - decent people may be rarer than we think (one of the encompassing things in Molly's writing is it doesn't matter a damn where such stuff comes from).

Distraction here - Warrington won 80 - 0 and my friend is round with the video.

On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 6:13:16 PM UTC+1, Allan Heretic wrote:
Education is a diffucult area. And you are right ther are a bunch of old goats more worried  about money than educating children. It seems even the benefits for the board are more important.. 

In all fairness there are many excellent  schools. Mostly  due to the love and dedication of the teachers. Putting in massive amounts of time and energy far beyond what they are paid for.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: Molly <>
Sent: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Honest Alter Universes

I really can't say why education can't keep up with the rapid change of what we know collectively (most of it belief based on skewed tests) except to say that the wheels of bureaucracy grind so slowly that by the time the books are written, funded (the biggest time lag) distributed, taught what is known may be three or four stages ahead. Teaching kids how to access information and formulate thesis is so much more valuable than learning the book and passing the test but here in the states we haven't changed paradigms. The school boards are filled with oldsters with more time on their hands than expertise in educational models.

Somehow, my kids found their way though it all into adult hood with an adequate skill set to engage life, although we are still working on the youngest. Supporting our kids as they launch into adulthood is the biggest challenge I've ever faced, taking decades to achieve. And you are right, Neil, the paradox allows that it all happens in perfection while calling us in the moment to practically act in the manner best for all. I can't say that I know what that is half the time and move ahead on faith and the feeling of grace. So far it has worked out, which is what the diagrams for living set out by those who have gone before try to explain, the myths, the scriptures, the legends.

All mystics struggle with the function of paradox as you are now. All fall from grace and recover which seems to be the human condition and the diagram of adam and eve portrays. Eventually, grace (or in modern terms, the sustained non dual viewpoint) relieves the burden of the struggle.

On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 7:05:15 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote:
If we can learn to breathe creation from the imagination, it seems likely that our language attempts have much more content than we generally allow.  We know 93% of communication is not verbal, but I mean something more than this.  I know we can immediately question whether we create anything from the imagination without the help of Sooty's Magic Wand (TM).

We aren't good on how Molly's spiritual experiences can be learned and had by others - indeed we are dire on 'learning transfer' of any kind from classroom to real world. Allan's taught me a fair bit over the years, mostly by offering a nudge of friendship when needed, but sometimes with an edible pearl cast before my snout.  I think we have problems understanding what we try to put on offer.

As a scientist, I want us to be able to analyse what resources we have, reasonable allocation and use of them, and some sort of development plan towards peace.  I do not see anything like such an attempt in the public domain  Any dialogue seems constrained by alterverses of others that seem leaden in constitution and are constructed with no intent at mutual understanding.  Worker ants can have nine levels of aggression built-in to their 'personalities' that play roles in their communication.  My guess is humans have the ability to call up many communicative alterverses that have little or nothing to do with dialogue and reason.  The use of these, partly unconsciously, means we are hardly ever in a situation of attempting to reach shared understanding.  I suspect most of us are not switched on (almost literally).

However, we lie all over the place, whether consciously or not on the value of the change we want for others.  In religion we are promised 'light', 'rapture' and the 'quiet mind' - but look at the standard university bullshit these days on transferable work skills and good jobs.  Molly is talking about change through imagination and what to do investment-wise (the latter being irrelevant if our magic wands worked).  I know this can be fairly explained - something I don't believe on the promises being made to most kids regarding university (HE is lying en masse).

What I'd like to see is a spirituality not connected with 'double-glazing promises' and, indeed, an education policy without worse.  Imagine me teaching how eye colour comes about.  I am qualified, but also remember how this was taught at school.  We got the brown dominant, blue recessive bullshit.  Nip out and count a few eyes, noting colour.  Very simple observation and counting should tell you the school model is wrong, not least as quite a few eyes are green.  In the UK only 22 % of eyes are brown.  In fact we have a better genetic theory than dominant-recessive.  We aren't even being honest about science teaching. 

Fantasy can be done with honesty.

On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 5:12:43 AM UTC+1, archytas wrote:
There's a character called Allan in 'Modern Toss' - though with part of the 'L' removed -

It was easy to get what you were on about Tony - the leap into the hole Allan landed in has more of that "alter" feel.  

Somewhere in the thesis, there is a quote concerning a woman saving the world rather than another Noah.  My experience with women as bosses is that they are usually even worse than men, often very cruel micro-managers.  Of course, I avoid work with bosses.  Clinton is just a crook now - Warren sometimes looks OK.  GOP women turn out to believe in  super-weirdo stuff like the Antarctic being on the Moon and ruled by arthropods.  They play well with the public until photographs with tall black guys emerge.

Is a promise of the female divine saving the world honest?  Sounds well over the top to me.  Molly makes claims for the imagination, but also talks of where the hell anyone can put their hard-earned and get some kind of return in dotage rather than suffer the general fate of oldies in noble savage circumstances (buried alive, spear end).  What is on offer in Molly's alter-universe of 'salvation', what are the honest promises if we still need a pension plan (that probably won't work!) - this is not a criticism of my friend.  I think these paradoxes arise as we speak.  Allan sometimes 'grouches' them out.  It maybe that a piece of Tony's art facilitates reception of hundreds of 'alterverses'.  I can help create learning situations to explore alter.  Molly talks of non-dual etc - I think with some spark of originality I don't find in better known authors.

I know, as soon as I speak, that I should be able to 'speal alter' - not some bill of goods as Allan said.  There are, for instance, at least nine different types of economics.  Organisation theories generally start in American pop-psychology, yet go somewhere else entirely if we start in continental philosophy, critical models of psychology or even good sense we confuse with common sense. 

I don't wonder anymore about Allan.  

 I was only offering a thought as to a very large denominations curious veneration of a quasi deity and why that never trickled down to the exclusive Vatican men's club.  

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 4:08:44 PM UTC-4, archytas wrote:
I'm wondering whether we end up screwed by terms as big as universe before we start.  I think alter-universes may be small.  Maybe Allan's reply to you here is one Tony?  I don't understand where he got to there in response to what you said - a world of understanding is missing somehow.  I can even feel something threatening in what Allan says, almost Gabby-like. "Now do not ever attack my Father and his beliefs ever again.. get some brains  and understanding in your head"  My head can only ask 'where the fuck did that come from'? - somewhat mediated by some idea I have of him as a nice guy not that different from me.

I don't start thinking with much that is clear to start with and some of my journeys end up as forgettable rough passages.  Alternate universes are like Hilbert's 'Hotel Infinity' - never full because a further room can always be added.

I was wondering more on what we can honestly promise about them when we speak of imaginative change as a real possibility for another person.  I suppose, along with the MA student, we could all explore the feminine divine in us.  I'd guess even Moll would wonder where we might get a drink of it, even if she has plenty of rhetoric well beyond the thesis.

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 5:34:33 PM UTC+1, facilitator wrote:
I have trouble with the term "Alternate Universe" . The universe, by nature, would include all alternatives.

The Catholics have a cult of Mary which states in repetitive prayer: "Holy Mary mother of God",  seeing her as a co-redeemer and creator of the divine.  


On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 9:34:28 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote:
Sex is how we currently reproduce, gender is probably a wider concept and hardly stops at male and female.  I had wondered if you guys think much in terms of social construction.  I tend to like working with people who can tell the shit from the sawdust and why the unmentioned in the manual crow-bar is so essential.  'I'm going to help from the feminine divine Neil' doesn't sound very promising.  The mug, for instance, could come from various 'inspirations'.  And one can say much the same of the thesis.  I used to see a hundred of so a year, a few quite brilliant (this one isn't), some so obviously good in the practice I'd have preferred no write-up and down to the plagiarised majority.  We might take Allan's stance and ask for a 'jar of feminine divine', but this isn't how I would treat something like this educationally.  

I think an 'alter-universe' needs to be created for a thesis like this to exist as a process.  We might think more generally about the difference between the alter-universe of a Muslim woman in an area with a promotion of virtue and prevention of vice squad and a grad student of Judith Butler.  

What interests me is what promises we can genuinely make about radical change.  You see, amongst some academics this thesis would be an outright fail.  I could both support and crush it, if I was hired as an advocate.

I would see stuff like this as relevant to building with the imagination - though also find it dull and conservative.    

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 12:12:43 PM UTC+1, Allan Heretic wrote:
I will be the first to admit having  a great deal of problems with gender and spirituality .  When  I feel  someone trying to sell me a bill of good I lose interest quickly.

I'll get back on why I think any aspects of divine relate to alter-universes Molly.  Allan could be seen to miss the point on this thesis, though my own response had a lot of his experience in it.  Here's a cruder example of the 'divine feminine'.


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