Re: Mind's Eye Re: Delusions

Actually Allan, what RP said is part of the definition of delusion.  And elsewhere, he is apt to insist on responsibility.

The DSM defines:

Delusion. A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everyone else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture (e.g., it is not an article of religious faith). When a false belief involves a value judgment, it is regarded as a delusion only when the judgment is so extreme as to defy credibility.

DSM definitions are notoriously inadequate:

1. Couldn't a true belief be a delusion, as long as the believer had no good reason for holding the belief? 2. Do delusions really have to be beliefs — might they not instead be imaginings that are mistaken for beliefs by the imaginer? 3. Must all delusions be based on inference? 4. Aren't there delusions that are not about external reality? 'I have no bodily organs' or 'my thoughts are not mine but are inserted into my mind by others' are beliefs expressed by some people with schizophrenia, yet are not about external reality; aren't these nevertheless still delusional beliefs? 5. Couldn't a belief held by all members of one's community still be delusional? (Coltheart 2007, p. 1043)  (2007). "Cognitive neuropsychiatry and delusional belief" (The 33rd Sir Frederick Bartlett Lecture), The Quarterly Journal of Experimental Psychology, 60 (8): 1041–1062.

Tony got in much quicker with his statement that delusions might be a good, motivational thing.

I ask myself whether I would want to be the kind of person who thinks, say, RP, Molly or Gabby's religious beliefs are delusional.  I would not want to be such a person, and actually don't evaluate others much anyway.  Nor would I want to be so non-evaluatory as to not take an axe of a poor soul thinking he had two heads and attacking the real one with it.  I do think religion is mostly wrong and has delusional content.   

On Sunday, 8 February 2015 05:26:44 UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:

What an excuse .. To avoid responsibility.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwterry@gmail.com>
To: minds-eye@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, 08 Feb 2015 1:15 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Delusions

That could be a true delusion in your case Allan.  In your permanently deluded state you know everything about delusion, but are deluded into thinking you don't.  My recommendations as the therapist you think is your second head are:

1. drop the axe and the gun

2. look in the mirror and ask that guy you see as someone else to fix the injuries if you didn't do 1.

3, get the coffee ready as I'm deluded too and coming round to discuss whether knowing our delusory incompetence puts us on a better footing in recovery than the rest of the group, who are deluded into thinking themselves sane and above this discussion ...

On Saturday, February 7, 2015 at 10:41:24 PM UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:

Delusions is something I have little understanding of..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwterry@gmail.com>
To: minds-eye@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, 07 Feb 2015 11:18 PM
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Delusions

I agree Tony - it's a point missing from the literature.  Joan of Arc, if she was ever real.  Whatever delusion systems are, there are positive and negative sides.  In some models delusion is the correct adaptation to circumstances.  Stimulus is difficult to work out though - hit me with a brick and I might start to produce great sculptures - same for you might stop you.

On Saturday, February 7, 2015 at 9:00:19 PM UTC, facilitator wrote:

Wouldn't a foundation of delusion be part of the brains ability to calculate, predict, surmise and therefore be necessary?  Competitiveness would drive this as well.  Knowing the odds against oneself and under some form of delusion, proceeding.  A team that has no chance of winning, a political campaign, a war?   Delusions are maintained because people have hope beyond reason.  It is a driving factor.  

 

--

---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.