Re: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

There are always new thougts to ponder.  My life hs been a bit hectic recently ir is good to see new names in the contributers

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: mehlisue <mehlisue@gmail.com>
To: minds-eye@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, 01 Feb 2015 4:00 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

LOL  I so enjoyed the conversation Archytas.  Maybe it was the walk in
the park like the dogs.  Thank you for the interchange. you give me a
some thought to ponder.


On 1/31/15, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
> Delightful Sue.  It's dawn here, so I'm a few minutes away from dogs
> fussing about their walk.  Max will pounce on me as I reach for my boots
> and then insist on 'conversation' all the way to the park.  Then he will
> run off about a mile to the top of a hill, king of all he surveys.  We
> should be organising life for moments like this, but I fear we don't.  I
> think a lot of what is broken is business and why we engage with it.
>
> On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 6:51:34 AM UTC, Sue Linda wrote:
>>
>> Thank you Archytas for the welcome.  Indeed "How we achieve that seems
>> the difficulty."  In simple terms, it is a bowl of twisted spaghetti
>> noodles and difficult to sort threw.  Not impossible, but difficult as
>> one has to look at self and that is not pleasant many times.  I reason
>> from my own experience, that one does not take on that journey until
>> they reach a place of "brokenness" and actually reach out and ask that
>> power of life for help and guidance. In my own experience, that has
>> not been supplied by any man ruled spiritual belief system.  Such is
>> constructed by ego of each leader who expresses their own thoughts by
>> their own life experience and others agree and follow what such a
>> leader expresses.  Starting again the entire cycle of living life by
>> the group experience based on the reality on one or in some cases
>> several individuals.  It would reason then, that there is ONE being
>> needed and be far removed from human influence that would guide and
>> instruct for that individual as they need.  Each person being just a
>> part of a puzzle and only a piece of the puzzle, can not see the
>> completed picture.  I would then reason that then the ability to
>> become compassionate to all humans knowing we are all in the same
>> state and all are a part of the whole picture would only begin to show
>> a candle flicker of light to change. The possible beginning to such a
>> event could be reasoned as a "virus" if I may use that example.
>> Compassion, love, has a stronger influence on the elements of this
>> planet.  Such were the experiments of Dr. Masaru Emoto's effects of
>> positive emotions and negative emotions on enviroment including other
>> humans.  It could be a reason that to return good to evil was given
>> and as well, that there is no Law against love.
>>
>> On 1/31/15, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Welcome Sue.  Interesting points.  Have to agree your statement on the
>> > point of compassion.  How we achieve that seems the difficulty.  I often
>> >
>> > think we could live more as we organise school, though without some of
>> the
>> > overbearing teachers I remember and with better control of the bullies.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 6:22:15 AM UTC, Sue Linda wrote:
>> >>
>> >> consider  consciousness.  The endless pursuit of humanity all threw
>> >> history.  To find such, is a inner exploring of who resides inside the
>> >>
>> >> body
>> >> you call self.  There is no standard to  consciousness for the life of
>> >>
>> >> each
>> >> has experienced very different events in life that taught them to
>> perceive
>> >>
>> >> their own reality and truth by such.  It would seem to reason than that
>> >>
>> to
>> >>
>> >> actually find truth in  consciousness is to realize that in this school
>> >>
>> of
>> >>
>> >> life on this planet, is designed to teach each by experience.  Than in
>> >>
>> a
>> >> twist of learning this of self and that others are also no different
>> than
>> >>
>> >> you other than the experience, I would think that the only thing left
>> to
>> >> say is have compassion on all, for we do not create our own life until
>> >>
>> we
>> >>
>> >> realize that this is true.  I would also state, that once you come to a
>> >>
>> >> place of compassion for All humans, than the release of seeing
>> differences
>> >>
>> >> is dissolved.  Life then can begin for the first time as the self then
>> >>
>> >> would choose to live each day without remembrance to the past
>> experience.
>> >>
>> >>  Without past recall, then future projections are absent for there is
>> >> nothing that can be judged by past experience.   Consciousness then
>> would
>> >>
>> >> be a daily revealing met with a world of no expectation of evil or of
>> >> good.
>> >>  Like a child who just lives in the moment.
>> >>
>> >> On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 7:05:54 PM UTC-6, RP Singh wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Suppose there had been no consciousness and the entire world had been
>> >>>
>> >>> there but all unconscious , what would be the Truth? Just death ,
>> nothing
>> >>>
>> >>> else. Consciousness is what makes life , a proof that there is
>> something
>> >>>
>> >>> which exists , Existence itself and not death. Look at the stars , the
>> >>>
>> >>> solar system , if it had self-direction where would we be? It all
>> obeys
>> >>> laws and that is the reason for order in the universe and not chaos.
>> What
>> >>>
>> >>> would humanity have been if we were not bound by our nature , no laws
>> >>>
>> of
>> >>>
>> >>> biology , psychology , etc. , no predictability , no comfort that we
>> >>> would
>> >>> return to our homes at night ,no assurance that we would return home
>> from
>> >>>
>> >>> work . Unpredictability is still there but it is minor , mostly there
>> >>>
>> is
>> >>>
>> >>> satisfaction and assurance of well-being.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > ---
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
>> > Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit
>> > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/minds-eye/sAm4Nlj4Ei8/unsubscribe.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to
>> > minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> >
>>
>
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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

LOL I so enjoyed the conversation Archytas. Maybe it was the walk in
the park like the dogs. Thank you for the interchange. you give me a
some thought to ponder.


On 1/31/15, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
> Delightful Sue. It's dawn here, so I'm a few minutes away from dogs
> fussing about their walk. Max will pounce on me as I reach for my boots
> and then insist on 'conversation' all the way to the park. Then he will
> run off about a mile to the top of a hill, king of all he surveys. We
> should be organising life for moments like this, but I fear we don't. I
> think a lot of what is broken is business and why we engage with it.
>
> On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 6:51:34 AM UTC, Sue Linda wrote:
>>
>> Thank you Archytas for the welcome. Indeed "How we achieve that seems
>> the difficulty." In simple terms, it is a bowl of twisted spaghetti
>> noodles and difficult to sort threw. Not impossible, but difficult as
>> one has to look at self and that is not pleasant many times. I reason
>> from my own experience, that one does not take on that journey until
>> they reach a place of "brokenness" and actually reach out and ask that
>> power of life for help and guidance. In my own experience, that has
>> not been supplied by any man ruled spiritual belief system. Such is
>> constructed by ego of each leader who expresses their own thoughts by
>> their own life experience and others agree and follow what such a
>> leader expresses. Starting again the entire cycle of living life by
>> the group experience based on the reality on one or in some cases
>> several individuals. It would reason then, that there is ONE being
>> needed and be far removed from human influence that would guide and
>> instruct for that individual as they need. Each person being just a
>> part of a puzzle and only a piece of the puzzle, can not see the
>> completed picture. I would then reason that then the ability to
>> become compassionate to all humans knowing we are all in the same
>> state and all are a part of the whole picture would only begin to show
>> a candle flicker of light to change. The possible beginning to such a
>> event could be reasoned as a "virus" if I may use that example.
>> Compassion, love, has a stronger influence on the elements of this
>> planet. Such were the experiments of Dr. Masaru Emoto's effects of
>> positive emotions and negative emotions on enviroment including other
>> humans. It could be a reason that to return good to evil was given
>> and as well, that there is no Law against love.
>>
>> On 1/31/15, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Welcome Sue. Interesting points. Have to agree your statement on the
>> > point of compassion. How we achieve that seems the difficulty. I often
>> >
>> > think we could live more as we organise school, though without some of
>> the
>> > overbearing teachers I remember and with better control of the bullies.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 6:22:15 AM UTC, Sue Linda wrote:
>> >>
>> >> consider consciousness. The endless pursuit of humanity all threw
>> >> history. To find such, is a inner exploring of who resides inside the
>> >>
>> >> body
>> >> you call self. There is no standard to consciousness for the life of
>> >>
>> >> each
>> >> has experienced very different events in life that taught them to
>> perceive
>> >>
>> >> their own reality and truth by such. It would seem to reason than that
>> >>
>> to
>> >>
>> >> actually find truth in consciousness is to realize that in this school
>> >>
>> of
>> >>
>> >> life on this planet, is designed to teach each by experience. Than in
>> >>
>> a
>> >> twist of learning this of self and that others are also no different
>> than
>> >>
>> >> you other than the experience, I would think that the only thing left
>> to
>> >> say is have compassion on all, for we do not create our own life until
>> >>
>> we
>> >>
>> >> realize that this is true. I would also state, that once you come to a
>> >>
>> >> place of compassion for All humans, than the release of seeing
>> differences
>> >>
>> >> is dissolved. Life then can begin for the first time as the self then
>> >>
>> >> would choose to live each day without remembrance to the past
>> experience.
>> >>
>> >> Without past recall, then future projections are absent for there is
>> >> nothing that can be judged by past experience. Consciousness then
>> would
>> >>
>> >> be a daily revealing met with a world of no expectation of evil or of
>> >> good.
>> >> Like a child who just lives in the moment.
>> >>
>> >> On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 7:05:54 PM UTC-6, RP Singh wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Suppose there had been no consciousness and the entire world had been
>> >>>
>> >>> there but all unconscious , what would be the Truth? Just death ,
>> nothing
>> >>>
>> >>> else. Consciousness is what makes life , a proof that there is
>> something
>> >>>
>> >>> which exists , Existence itself and not death. Look at the stars , the
>> >>>
>> >>> solar system , if it had self-direction where would we be? It all
>> obeys
>> >>> laws and that is the reason for order in the universe and not chaos.
>> What
>> >>>
>> >>> would humanity have been if we were not bound by our nature , no laws
>> >>>
>> of
>> >>>
>> >>> biology , psychology , etc. , no predictability , no comfort that we
>> >>> would
>> >>> return to our homes at night ,no assurance that we would return home
>> from
>> >>>
>> >>> work . Unpredictability is still there but it is minor , mostly there
>> >>>
>> is
>> >>>
>> >>> satisfaction and assurance of well-being.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > ---
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
>> > Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit
>> > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/minds-eye/sAm4Nlj4Ei8/unsubscribe.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to
>> > minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> >
>>
>
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>
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Re: Mind's Eye Consciousness

I think when the scientists say that they are unable to define consciousness they are referring to the quality of consciousness and not the consciousness as an entity because neurology being so advanced they may be knowing where the central command of the organism is and as such that is the very place in which consciousness-entity resides.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 5:13 PM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:

What else do we pay you for RP, other than to give us total answers?  There is no definition really - we are guessing in this particular game.  It's pretty tricky to define oxygen without the rest of chemistry.  It was phlogiston once.

Allan's right that if we invent evil genies they have properties.  To some extent we can see the world through the eyes of another if they tell us about it or do something like Tony's artwork.    Language seems to have some collective consciousness role, even if we are often at odds with it or bewitched by it.  Hard to see language arising privately

Given how much we copy others, is consciousness ever our own?  I can't really see that the same dull academic book or fiction pot boiler repeated a thousand times comes from a thousand original subjective minds,

Sometimes things are defined by what they are not, by what's in or outside a boundary, in a closed or open system, by what use it is in explanation, prediction, comforting we lost souls ...

Telepathy used to be mystical and fail.  Now we have radio and its extensions.  I could pay for a beer for Chris to drink 3000 miles away and understand some of the relish in his description of the experience on google plus.  Somehow I am not that interested in his consciousness when more direct personal experiment is possible.  More interesting, perhaps, is that taste seems to change in near zero gravity.  I hardly know that because I've eaten there.

If Tony starts having the same consciousness as me would there be any point in both of us?  Some choose to live without running water in order to change consciousness.

What is in consciousness we might not admit to?  Is, for instance, pornography an example of what lurks?  Is talk of god just a polite distraction? 

I don't agree we will never know what consciousness is.  We don't know what we will know in the future.  I'm conscious we should start building a better material world to be conscious in - that might change consciousness for the better. 

  

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 9:11:29 AM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

Allan , when you know so much about such things why don't you give a valid definition of the concept "Consciousness". And it was Chris who was calling it Mumbo Gumbo and not I. I think that I have given quite an honest definition of  such a subjective concept as definitions go. It is upto others to give a better meaning. If I have started the thread it doesn't mean that I alone have to satisfy the group.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 1:53 PM, <allanh1946@gmail.com> wrote:

There are many many levels consciousness.  As rock who knows all about the long hard grind after carrying the weight of a glacier on his back. Now he passes his time quietly on my workbench.
Unfortunately the dictionary is the common starting point. From where you have to begin building. Chris is right..  your definion is simply not thought out or developed. Mumbo Gumbo does not cut it in an honest discussion. 

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----

From: RP Singh <1234rp@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Consciousness

Allan , it is consciousness. What you are seeing the dictionary for is something completely different.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 1:15 PM, <allanh1946@gmail.com> wrote:

That is a very possible reality..  the problem is the evil genie making us think we have consciousness would mean the evil woild have to possess the attributes he is making is think we possess.
It us said more happened in the 1st second of creation than all the time has passed since.

Commonly in the belief system the overall consciousness is refered to as God (or some variation of the name). Due to free will given to all souls and beings the conciousness is ever expanding like the rest of the ùniverse demonstrates.. 

As for a common definition one needs to turn to a dictionary.
CONSCIENTIOUSNESS

noun (uncountable)
• The state or characteristic of being conscientious.

CONSCIENTIOUS

adjective
• Thorough, careful, or vigilant; implies a desire to do a task well.

 

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwterry@gmail.com>
To: minds-eye@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 5:58 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Consciousness

We may have no consciousness and an evil genie might be making us think we have.  I find inferred consciousness is easily removed by a heavy blow with a pick-axe handle.

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 3:10:05 AM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

Consciousness in others is inferred and not known or proved so it might be that even atoms of elements have consciousness. I cannot even prove that you have consciousness it is merely inferred that you have it.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 7:02 AM, Chris Jenkins <digitalprecipice@gmail.com> wrote:

Why do we have to be satisfied with your explanation when we haven't even determined what that means?

You began a thread called consciousness, and then won't even take the first steps to try to establish a common ground on the idea?

Let's start with the simple question: do you believe plants have consciousness?

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 8:18 PM, RP Singh <1234rp@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't think you will get an answer to this in the near future and maybe not in your lifetime , and so we have to be satisfied with my explanation -- it is an attribute of life , a real one , and not jumbled up.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 6:42 AM, Chris Jenkins <digitalprecipice@gmail.com> wrote:

Moogle-de-poogledy is an attribute of life and needs no further description.

Do you see why that's not an effective line of conversation?

What is conciousness? Do plants have it? Does it require sentience?

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 8:10 PM, RP Singh <1234rp@gmail.com> wrote:

Consciousness is an attribute of life and needs no further description. Without consciousness there would have been no life , and so it is life itself.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 6:37 AM, Chris Jenkins <digitalprecipice@gmail.com> wrote:

Just so we're all on the same page, can you go ahead and define exactly what a consciousness is?

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 8:05 PM, RP Singh <1234rp@gmail.com> wrote:

Suppose there had been no consciousness and the entire world had been there but all unconscious , what would be the Truth? Just death , nothing else. Consciousness is what makes life , a proof that there is something which exists , Existence itself and not death. Look at the stars , the solar system , if it had self-direction where would we be? It all obeys laws and that is the reason for order in the universe and not chaos. What would humanity have been if we were not bound by our nature , no laws of biology , psychology , etc. , no predictability , no comfort that we would return to our homes at night ,no assurance that we would return home from work . Unpredictability is still there but it is minor , mostly there is satisfaction and assurance of well-being.

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

This consciousness thread and is directly inline with the topic. To me Gabby you are far stepping over the line ...  I for one am not interested on what I suspect is a porn site.. if that is what you enjoy have at it and do your thing..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: gabbydott <gabbydott@gmail.com>
To: "minds-eye@googlegroups.com" <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

I thought this was the consciousness thread... And now it's erase your past to become part of the newborn souls group (adults only)... Wow, now that reminds me of ... 

Am Samstag, 31. Januar 2015 schrieb archytas :

Some of our genes are extremely old Tony.  Have to agree on the kids - all monsters are born as babies, some are showing it at nursery, a few killing at nine and then there is teenage, a specific affliction only humans go through, physically ending at about 25.

In transactional analysis child, parent and adult refer to ego states.  That might be a better way of thinking about 'childhood for adults'.

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 3:53:25 PM UTC, facilitator wrote:

We are all children.  No one person has lived long enough on this planet to be an adult.  Sure we age and consider 90 old and somehow think that going around the sun 90 times makes us more responsible, but that is way too short a life span to learn much.  We cannot view six generations ahead and alter the progression.

I don't see pristine qualities in children.  There are instincts that are counter to group enlightenment.

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

I thought this was the consciousness thread... And now it's erase your past to become part of the newborn souls group (adults only)... Wow, now that reminds me of ... 

Am Samstag, 31. Januar 2015 schrieb archytas :

Some of our genes are extremely old Tony.  Have to agree on the kids - all monsters are born as babies, some are showing it at nursery, a few killing at nine and then there is teenage, a specific affliction only humans go through, physically ending at about 25.

In transactional analysis child, parent and adult refer to ego states.  That might be a better way of thinking about 'childhood for adults'.

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 3:53:25 PM UTC, facilitator wrote:

We are all children.  No one person has lived long enough on this planet to be an adult.  Sure we age and consider 90 old and somehow think that going around the sun 90 times makes us more responsible, but that is way too short a life span to learn much.  We cannot view six generations ahead and alter the progression.

I don't see pristine qualities in children.  There are instincts that are counter to group enlightenment.

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Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

Some of our genes are extremely old Tony.  Have to agree on the kids - all monsters are born as babies, some are showing it at nursery, a few killing at nine and then there is teenage, a specific affliction only humans go through, physically ending at about 25.

In transactional analysis child, parent and adult refer to ego states.  That might be a better way of thinking about 'childhood for adults'.

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 3:53:25 PM UTC, facilitator wrote:

We are all children.  No one person has lived long enough on this planet to be an adult.  Sure we age and consider 90 old and somehow think that going around the sun 90 times makes us more responsible, but that is way too short a life span to learn much.  We cannot view six generations ahead and alter the progression.

I don't see pristine qualities in children.  There are instincts that are counter to group enlightenment.

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

That's only if they aren't sneaking up behind you RP.

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 4:23:10 PM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

"with a world of no expectation of evil or of good."

To meet evil or good with the same heart is not human nature. The good a person embraces with a smile , and the evil a person accepts with a heavy heart.

On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 11:52 AM, Sue Linda <mehlisue@gmail.com> wrote:

consider  consciousness.  The endless pursuit of humanity all threw history.  To find such, is a inner exploring of who resides inside the body you call self.  There is no standard to  consciousness for the life of each has experienced very different events in life that taught them to perceive their own reality and truth by such.  It would seem to reason than that to actually find truth in  consciousness is to realize that in this school of life on this planet, is designed to teach each by experience.  Than in a twist of learning this of self and that others are also no different than you other than the experience, I would think that the only thing left to say is have compassion on all, for we do not create our own life until we realize that this is true.  I would also state, that once you come to a place of compassion for All humans, than the release of seeing differences is dissolved.  Life then can begin for the first time as the self then would choose to live each day without remembrance to the past experience.  Without past recall, then future projections are absent for there is nothing that can be judged by past experience.   Consciousness then would be a daily revealing met with a world of no expectation of evil or of good.  Like a child who just lives in the moment.  

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 7:05:54 PM UTC-6, RP Singh wrote:

Suppose there had been no consciousness and the entire world had been there but all unconscious , what would be the Truth? Just death , nothing else. Consciousness is what makes life , a proof that there is something which exists , Existence itself and not death. Look at the stars , the solar system , if it had self-direction where would we be? It all obeys laws and that is the reason for order in the universe and not chaos. What would humanity have been if we were not bound by our nature , no laws of biology , psychology , etc. , no predictability , no comfort that we would return to our homes at night ,no assurance that we would return home from work . Unpredictability is still there but it is minor , mostly there is satisfaction and assurance of well-being.

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

What a dreadful Gegen-wart to dream up Gabby, and how aptly it may describe the classroom presence.

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 4:44:37 PM UTC, Gabby wrote:

... While it's perfectly okay that you carry the lice to the next fresh green leafs to get your extra portion of sugar?...

Am Samstag, 31. Januar 2015 schrieb archytas :

Most kids work out trees have backs long before phenomenological philosophers get mugged by someone lurking behind one, thinking what the things-in-themselves are really.

Consider some philosophical problems that will be familiar from introductory metaphysics classes: Does the table that I think I see before me exist? Does God exist? Does mind, conceived as an entity distinct from body, exist? These questions have the following form: does x (where x = some particular kind of thing) exist? Questions of this form presuppose that we already know what 'to exist' means. We typically don't even notice this presupposition 

Some of us think even to think this way is to take on presuppositions of millennia that this is any way to think successfully and we merely bewitch ourselves with language.  The baby is already in the spaghetti of evolution, DNA and culture.  Regression to the child-mind is not biologically possible.  Freedom from dud theory and trauma may be.  I sense Gabby is right, but somehow don't want to be stung by the Gegen-wart or suffer an outbreak of them.  There is something simpler in Sue Linda's learning from children.

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 3:16:22 PM UTC, Gabby wrote:

Hello Sue, it is not necessary to regress in a child's/childhood state to be then be able to look back at the present - the German language imagery might help you out there. ;) In what we see as "Gegen-wart", being present bans the fear of the "was" and its "evils" no matter how old you are.

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 7:27:33 AM UTC+1, Sue Linda wrote:

in your considered thoughts, the state of life would be more like a child like mind who knows nothing of death, nor of life but enjoys each moment that arrives.  It is only by the events of evil works brought on a child does it lean the effects of danger.  Consider children as our teachers.  Before they learn of "evil" that being events that cause harm, the child only lives in the moment and acts of "evil" on another child is rare.

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 7:05:54 PM UTC-6, RP Singh wrote:

Suppose there had been no consciousness and the entire world had been there but all unconscious , what would be the Truth? Just death , nothing else. Consciousness is what makes life , a proof that there is something which exists , Existence itself and not death. Look at the stars , the solar system , if it had self-direction where would we be? It all obeys laws and that is the reason for order in the universe and not chaos. What would humanity have been if we were not bound by our nature , no laws of biology , psychology , etc. , no predictability , no comfort that we would return to our homes at night ,no assurance that we would return home from work . Unpredictability is still there but it is minor , mostly there is satisfaction and assurance of well-being.

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

Actually Sue is right,, you learn the difference as you grow

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <1234rp@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

"with a world of no expectation of evil or of good."

To meet evil or good with the same heart is not human nature. The good a person embraces with a smile , and the evil a person accepts with a heavy heart.

On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 11:52 AM, Sue Linda <mehlisue@gmail.com> wrote:

consider  consciousness.  The endless pursuit of humanity all threw history.  To find such, is a inner exploring of who resides inside the body you call self.  There is no standard to  consciousness for the life of each has experienced very different events in life that taught them to perceive their own reality and truth by such.  It would seem to reason than that to actually find truth in  consciousness is to realize that in this school of life on this planet, is designed to teach each by experience.  Than in a twist of learning this of self and that others are also no different than you other than the experience, I would think that the only thing left to say is have compassion on all, for we do not create our own life until we realize that this is true.  I would also state, that once you come to a place of compassion for All humans, than the release of seeing differences is dissolved.  Life then can begin for the first time as the self then would choose to live each day without remembrance to the past experience.  Without past recall, then future projections are absent for there is nothing that can be judged by past experience.   Consciousness then would be a daily revealing met with a world of no expectation of evil or of good.  Like a child who just lives in the moment.  

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 7:05:54 PM UTC-6, RP Singh wrote:

Suppose there had been no consciousness and the entire world had been there but all unconscious , what would be the Truth? Just death , nothing else. Consciousness is what makes life , a proof that there is something which exists , Existence itself and not death. Look at the stars , the solar system , if it had self-direction where would we be? It all obeys laws and that is the reason for order in the universe and not chaos. What would humanity have been if we were not bound by our nature , no laws of biology , psychology , etc. , no predictability , no comfort that we would return to our homes at night ,no assurance that we would return home from work . Unpredictability is still there but it is minor , mostly there is satisfaction and assurance of well-being.

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

... While it's perfectly okay that you carry the lice to the next fresh green leafs to get your extra portion of sugar?...

Am Samstag, 31. Januar 2015 schrieb archytas :

Most kids work out trees have backs long before phenomenological philosophers get mugged by someone lurking behind one, thinking what the things-in-themselves are really.

Consider some philosophical problems that will be familiar from introductory metaphysics classes: Does the table that I think I see before me exist? Does God exist? Does mind, conceived as an entity distinct from body, exist? These questions have the following form: does x (where x = some particular kind of thing) exist? Questions of this form presuppose that we already know what 'to exist' means. We typically don't even notice this presupposition 

Some of us think even to think this way is to take on presuppositions of millennia that this is any way to think successfully and we merely bewitch ourselves with language.  The baby is already in the spaghetti of evolution, DNA and culture.  Regression to the child-mind is not biologically possible.  Freedom from dud theory and trauma may be.  I sense Gabby is right, but somehow don't want to be stung by the Gegen-wart or suffer an outbreak of them.  There is something simpler in Sue Linda's learning from children.

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 3:16:22 PM UTC, Gabby wrote:

Hello Sue, it is not necessary to regress in a child's/childhood state to be then be able to look back at the present - the German language imagery might help you out there. ;) In what we see as "Gegen-wart", being present bans the fear of the "was" and its "evils" no matter how old you are.

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 7:27:33 AM UTC+1, Sue Linda wrote:

in your considered thoughts, the state of life would be more like a child like mind who knows nothing of death, nor of life but enjoys each moment that arrives.  It is only by the events of evil works brought on a child does it lean the effects of danger.  Consider children as our teachers.  Before they learn of "evil" that being events that cause harm, the child only lives in the moment and acts of "evil" on another child is rare.

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 7:05:54 PM UTC-6, RP Singh wrote:

Suppose there had been no consciousness and the entire world had been there but all unconscious , what would be the Truth? Just death , nothing else. Consciousness is what makes life , a proof that there is something which exists , Existence itself and not death. Look at the stars , the solar system , if it had self-direction where would we be? It all obeys laws and that is the reason for order in the universe and not chaos. What would humanity have been if we were not bound by our nature , no laws of biology , psychology , etc. , no predictability , no comfort that we would return to our homes at night ,no assurance that we would return home from work . Unpredictability is still there but it is minor , mostly there is satisfaction and assurance of well-being.

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Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

Most kids work out trees have backs long before phenomenological philosophers get mugged by someone lurking behind one, thinking what the things-in-themselves are really.

Consider some philosophical problems that will be familiar from introductory metaphysics classes: Does the table that I think I see before me exist? Does God exist? Does mind, conceived as an entity distinct from body, exist? These questions have the following form: does x (where x = some particular kind of thing) exist? Questions of this form presuppose that we already know what 'to exist' means. We typically don't even notice this presupposition 

Some of us think even to think this way is to take on presuppositions of millennia that this is any way to think successfully and we merely bewitch ourselves with language.  The baby is already in the spaghetti of evolution, DNA and culture.  Regression to the child-mind is not biologically possible.  Freedom from dud theory and trauma may be.  I sense Gabby is right, but somehow don't want to be stung by the Gegen-wart or suffer an outbreak of them.  There is something simpler in Sue Linda's learning from children.

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 3:16:22 PM UTC, Gabby wrote:

Hello Sue, it is not necessary to regress in a child's/childhood state to be then be able to look back at the present - the German language imagery might help you out there. ;) In what we see as "Gegen-wart", being present bans the fear of the "was" and its "evils" no matter how old you are.

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 7:27:33 AM UTC+1, Sue Linda wrote:

in your considered thoughts, the state of life would be more like a child like mind who knows nothing of death, nor of life but enjoys each moment that arrives.  It is only by the events of evil works brought on a child does it lean the effects of danger.  Consider children as our teachers.  Before they learn of "evil" that being events that cause harm, the child only lives in the moment and acts of "evil" on another child is rare.

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 7:05:54 PM UTC-6, RP Singh wrote:

Suppose there had been no consciousness and the entire world had been there but all unconscious , what would be the Truth? Just death , nothing else. Consciousness is what makes life , a proof that there is something which exists , Existence itself and not death. Look at the stars , the solar system , if it had self-direction where would we be? It all obeys laws and that is the reason for order in the universe and not chaos. What would humanity have been if we were not bound by our nature , no laws of biology , psychology , etc. , no predictability , no comfort that we would return to our homes at night ,no assurance that we would return home from work . Unpredictability is still there but it is minor , mostly there is satisfaction and assurance of well-being.

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

"with a world of no expectation of evil or of good."

To meet evil or good with the same heart is not human nature. The good a person embraces with a smile , and the evil a person accepts with a heavy heart.

On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 11:52 AM, Sue Linda <mehlisue@gmail.com> wrote:

consider  consciousness.  The endless pursuit of humanity all threw history.  To find such, is a inner exploring of who resides inside the body you call self.  There is no standard to  consciousness for the life of each has experienced very different events in life that taught them to perceive their own reality and truth by such.  It would seem to reason than that to actually find truth in  consciousness is to realize that in this school of life on this planet, is designed to teach each by experience.  Than in a twist of learning this of self and that others are also no different than you other than the experience, I would think that the only thing left to say is have compassion on all, for we do not create our own life until we realize that this is true.  I would also state, that once you come to a place of compassion for All humans, than the release of seeing differences is dissolved.  Life then can begin for the first time as the self then would choose to live each day without remembrance to the past experience.  Without past recall, then future projections are absent for there is nothing that can be judged by past experience.   Consciousness then would be a daily revealing met with a world of no expectation of evil or of good.  Like a child who just lives in the moment.  

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 7:05:54 PM UTC-6, RP Singh wrote:

Suppose there had been no consciousness and the entire world had been there but all unconscious , what would be the Truth? Just death , nothing else. Consciousness is what makes life , a proof that there is something which exists , Existence itself and not death. Look at the stars , the solar system , if it had self-direction where would we be? It all obeys laws and that is the reason for order in the universe and not chaos. What would humanity have been if we were not bound by our nature , no laws of biology , psychology , etc. , no predictability , no comfort that we would return to our homes at night ,no assurance that we would return home from work . Unpredictability is still there but it is minor , mostly there is satisfaction and assurance of well-being.

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

I don't know how a person can be sidelined like this , maybe that is the experience he is bound to , as being the very will of God.

On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 8:01 PM, Molly <mollyb363@gmail.com> wrote:

A quick google of "awareness consciousness" brings up much of the current discussion on the matter.  Here is an explanation from a guy I prefer (a sculpture, Facilitator, but also a non-dual philosopher.) http://non-duality.rupertspira.com/read/is_awareness_the_same_as_consciousness_oasg_13 

Of course, one would have to experience what is being discussed to actually have anything other than speculation or opinion (mental constructs.) Since the experience requires going beyond mind...(won't bore you with the P word again.)

Agree, Neil, that the discussion may lead to the experience after the onion of the story is peeled. This may well be the worth of this group and what keeps us coming back.

Being a big fan of St. Therese, Sue, I welcome your thoughts to the group.  There is much to be said for innocence once the mind becomes a well oiled machine, firing only when mechanically necessary, much like a strong healthy heart that just keeps beating. Welcome.

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 5:34:15 AM UTC-5, Allan Heretic wrote:

You have never studied the lesson a child teaches?

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwterry@gmail.com>
To: minds-eye@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 7:54 AM
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

Considering children as our teachers sounds very interesting.  In a sense, literature has done some of this with the 'noble savage' theme - though anthropology tells us primitive societies are very violent, even when we factor war into ours.  Kids enjoying each other, like my dogs meeting their pals in the park, always moves me. 'Buster' is a particular friend of my two.  One has to do something to organise children's play (and the dogs') and eliminate obvious dangers.  This includes difficult reasoning on not over-supervising.  We make provision for the future, rather than live every day as it comes.  I think we have become neurotic on how we do this and should be providing security in order that we can be more in the moment and not worrying so much.  Sadly, much living in the moment is consumed with the wrong things already.

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 6:27:33 AM UTC, Sue Linda wrote:

in your considered thoughts, the state of life would be more like a child like mind who knows nothing of death, nor of life but enjoys each moment that arrives.  It is only by the events of evil works brought on a child does it lean the effects of danger.  Consider children as our teachers.  Before they learn of "evil" that being events that cause harm, the child only lives in the moment and acts of "evil" on another child is rare.

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 7:05:54 PM UTC-6, RP Singh wrote:

Suppose there had been no consciousness and the entire world had been there but all unconscious , what would be the Truth? Just death , nothing else. Consciousness is what makes life , a proof that there is something which exists , Existence itself and not death. Look at the stars , the solar system , if it had self-direction where would we be? It all obeys laws and that is the reason for order in the universe and not chaos. What would humanity have been if we were not bound by our nature , no laws of biology , psychology , etc. , no predictability , no comfort that we would return to our homes at night ,no assurance that we would return home from work . Unpredictability is still there but it is minor , mostly there is satisfaction and assurance of well-being.

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Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

We are all children.  No one person has lived long enough on this planet to be an adult.  Sure we age and consider 90 old and somehow think that going around the sun 90 times makes us more responsible, but that is way too short a life span to learn much.  We cannot view six generations ahead and alter the progression.

I don't see pristine qualities in children.  There are instincts that are counter to group enlightenment.

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Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

Hello Sue, it is not necessary to regress in a child's/childhood state to be then be able to look back at the present - the German language imagery might help you out there. ;) In what we see as "Gegen-wart", being present bans the fear of the "was" and its "evils" no matter how old you are.

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 7:27:33 AM UTC+1, Sue Linda wrote:

in your considered thoughts, the state of life would be more like a child like mind who knows nothing of death, nor of life but enjoys each moment that arrives.  It is only by the events of evil works brought on a child does it lean the effects of danger.  Consider children as our teachers.  Before they learn of "evil" that being events that cause harm, the child only lives in the moment and acts of "evil" on another child is rare.

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 7:05:54 PM UTC-6, RP Singh wrote:

Suppose there had been no consciousness and the entire world had been there but all unconscious , what would be the Truth? Just death , nothing else. Consciousness is what makes life , a proof that there is something which exists , Existence itself and not death. Look at the stars , the solar system , if it had self-direction where would we be? It all obeys laws and that is the reason for order in the universe and not chaos. What would humanity have been if we were not bound by our nature , no laws of biology , psychology , etc. , no predictability , no comfort that we would return to our homes at night ,no assurance that we would return home from work . Unpredictability is still there but it is minor , mostly there is satisfaction and assurance of well-being.

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

Why don't you seize the opportunity and explain Sue and the rest of us what you have found out really controls the baby in an orderly way in a new thread? You say there is a creature born to respond to its soul. And the soul depends on outside (parents?) inputs to develop personality and skills. Where does that leave mind, agency and consciousness of the newborn? In a separate spaghetti bowl?

Am Samstag, 31. Januar 2015 11:32:40 UTC+1 schrieb Allan Heretic:

Welcome to the Group Sue.. babies only respond to their enviorment. Saddly it is the environment parents create for the children live in create the problems. But what do you expect when you park them infront of violent television programs  or provide electronic war games. What can you expect for their responses to life.
You will find that i believes soul controls the body.. it is outside imput that develops the souls personality and skills. A seven day old only knows the knowledge they are born with.


تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: Sue Linda <mehl...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 7:27 AM
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

in your considered thoughts, the state of life would be more like a child like mind who knows nothing of death, nor of life but enjoys each moment that arrives.  It is only by the events of evil works brought on a child does it lean the effects of danger.  Consider children as our teachers.  Before they learn of "evil" that being events that cause harm, the child only lives in the moment and acts of "evil" on another child is rare.

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 7:05:54 PM UTC-6, RP Singh wrote:

Suppose there had been no consciousness and the entire world had been there but all unconscious , what would be the Truth? Just death , nothing else. Consciousness is what makes life , a proof that there is something which exists , Existence itself and not death. Look at the stars , the solar system , if it had self-direction where would we be? It all obeys laws and that is the reason for order in the universe and not chaos. What would humanity have been if we were not bound by our nature , no laws of biology , psychology , etc. , no predictability , no comfort that we would return to our homes at night ,no assurance that we would return home from work . Unpredictability is still there but it is minor , mostly there is satisfaction and assurance of well-being.

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

A quick google of "awareness consciousness" brings up much of the current discussion on the matter.  Here is an explanation from a guy I prefer (a sculpture, Facilitator, but also a non-dual philosopher.) http://non-duality.rupertspira.com/read/is_awareness_the_same_as_consciousness_oasg_13 

Of course, one would have to experience what is being discussed to actually have anything other than speculation or opinion (mental constructs.) Since the experience requires going beyond mind...(won't bore you with the P word again.)

Agree, Neil, that the discussion may lead to the experience after the onion of the story is peeled. This may well be the worth of this group and what keeps us coming back.

Being a big fan of St. Therese, Sue, I welcome your thoughts to the group.  There is much to be said for innocence once the mind becomes a well oiled machine, firing only when mechanically necessary, much like a strong healthy heart that just keeps beating. Welcome.

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 5:34:15 AM UTC-5, Allan Heretic wrote:

You have never studied the lesson a child teaches?

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwterry@gmail.com>
To: minds-eye@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 7:54 AM
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

Considering children as our teachers sounds very interesting.  In a sense, literature has done some of this with the 'noble savage' theme - though anthropology tells us primitive societies are very violent, even when we factor war into ours.  Kids enjoying each other, like my dogs meeting their pals in the park, always moves me. 'Buster' is a particular friend of my two.  One has to do something to organise children's play (and the dogs') and eliminate obvious dangers.  This includes difficult reasoning on not over-supervising.  We make provision for the future, rather than live every day as it comes.  I think we have become neurotic on how we do this and should be providing security in order that we can be more in the moment and not worrying so much.  Sadly, much living in the moment is consumed with the wrong things already.

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 6:27:33 AM UTC, Sue Linda wrote:

in your considered thoughts, the state of life would be more like a child like mind who knows nothing of death, nor of life but enjoys each moment that arrives.  It is only by the events of evil works brought on a child does it lean the effects of danger.  Consider children as our teachers.  Before they learn of "evil" that being events that cause harm, the child only lives in the moment and acts of "evil" on another child is rare.

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 7:05:54 PM UTC-6, RP Singh wrote:

Suppose there had been no consciousness and the entire world had been there but all unconscious , what would be the Truth? Just death , nothing else. Consciousness is what makes life , a proof that there is something which exists , Existence itself and not death. Look at the stars , the solar system , if it had self-direction where would we be? It all obeys laws and that is the reason for order in the universe and not chaos. What would humanity have been if we were not bound by our nature , no laws of biology , psychology , etc. , no predictability , no comfort that we would return to our homes at night ,no assurance that we would return home from work . Unpredictability is still there but it is minor , mostly there is satisfaction and assurance of well-being.

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

You have never studied the lesson a child teaches?

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwterry@gmail.com>
To: minds-eye@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 7:54 AM
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

Considering children as our teachers sounds very interesting.  In a sense, literature has done some of this with the 'noble savage' theme - though anthropology tells us primitive societies are very violent, even when we factor war into ours.  Kids enjoying each other, like my dogs meeting their pals in the park, always moves me. 'Buster' is a particular friend of my two.  One has to do something to organise children's play (and the dogs') and eliminate obvious dangers.  This includes difficult reasoning on not over-supervising.  We make provision for the future, rather than live every day as it comes.  I think we have become neurotic on how we do this and should be providing security in order that we can be more in the moment and not worrying so much.  Sadly, much living in the moment is consumed with the wrong things already.

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 6:27:33 AM UTC, Sue Linda wrote:

in your considered thoughts, the state of life would be more like a child like mind who knows nothing of death, nor of life but enjoys each moment that arrives.  It is only by the events of evil works brought on a child does it lean the effects of danger.  Consider children as our teachers.  Before they learn of "evil" that being events that cause harm, the child only lives in the moment and acts of "evil" on another child is rare.

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 7:05:54 PM UTC-6, RP Singh wrote:

Suppose there had been no consciousness and the entire world had been there but all unconscious , what would be the Truth? Just death , nothing else. Consciousness is what makes life , a proof that there is something which exists , Existence itself and not death. Look at the stars , the solar system , if it had self-direction where would we be? It all obeys laws and that is the reason for order in the universe and not chaos. What would humanity have been if we were not bound by our nature , no laws of biology , psychology , etc. , no predictability , no comfort that we would return to our homes at night ,no assurance that we would return home from work . Unpredictability is still there but it is minor , mostly there is satisfaction and assurance of well-being.

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