Re: Mind's Eye Re: Proof of the existence of God

Sorry for the typos Andrew, "unless they had." should read "unless they
had to." I despise dishonesty... "few" should read "few thousands" at
least, my tone is deflecting I hope it's not received as reproach. No
offense anyone, I hope.

On 11/12/2013 2:46 AM, James wrote:
> What I meant by statistical in nature is that unless things 'speak' to
> someone (intuited, instinctive) in a way that specifically identifies
> the cause or origin of the incongruity there doesn't seem to be a way
> to go from something being improbable to establishing the fact of how
> or why. From the other direction though we might be able to explore
> radical possibilities that would necessitate the correlation. It seems
> backwards to conventional thinking but gradually a familiarity should
> result in attenuating the senses to quickly trace patterns through
> gradually larger groups of references refined by more experiences.
> There don't seem to be any tools to aid in the process other than
> direct experience, honesty and aloofness. I don't see someone doing
> this unless they had.
> This is my own understanding btw, I've done my best to ignore all the
> books and forums on it. There is valuable knowledge encoded in folk
> wisdom, one day we might be confined to debating who has memorized the
> longest series of newspaper headlines and call the sport 'history'. My
> objection to intelligent design or god theories is that people don't
> take it far enough to be pointless to differentiate. :) There's a joke
> in there somewhere.
>
> GW posted a few days ago, the one mentioning many years of research
> into this topic.
>
> On 11/11/2013 3:27 AM, andrew vecsey wrote:
>> Thank you Ash for your interest and comments. In my example of my
>> phone conversation, if the friend I was calling just happened to pick
>> up the phone as I was calling him to call someone else, then I would
>> consider it just statistical luck. Especially if I would have
>> regularly called him. But I had not called him for a few years and he
>> was trying to call me at the same time. This to me makes it a
>> personal coincidence that is far beyond just luck. Something like
>> the configuration of a handful of sand is just a fact. Picking up the
>> sand a second time with the same configuration would be a personal
>> coincidence. What would be interesting for me is to hear personal
>> coincidences of others. Who is GW by the way? Perhaps for now,
>> "spirits and god" should be set aside. Too many people seemed to be
>> either positively or negatively too biased when they hear those 2
>> words to talk about this topic with an open head or heart.
>>
>> On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:17:21 AM UTC+1, Ash wrote:
>>
>> Calculating the probability of personal experiences doesn't sound
>> fruitful, but as a challenge I find it rewarding to pursue an
>> explanation. How can one validate something instantaneous and
>> non-reproducible? The odds of a given configuration of any
>> handful of
>> sand are likely astronomical. What about the odds of reaching to
>> answer
>> the phone before it rings, turning on the radio because you are
>> whistling a tune and have the urge and the radio picks up at the
>> exact
>> note, entire conversations play out weeks or days after the
>> thoughts ran
>> through your mind, specific and extraordinarily random
>> correlations with
>> nothing physical to connect them. I've probably had a few of them
>> myself, in that range of consciousness. Personally I think the most
>> impressive results will be found in dream research. I don't think
>> the
>> likelihoods are statistical in nature, and the intelligent design
>> debate
>> sounds like a rigorous fizzle so far. That makes it a tough
>> question,
>> can we keep it going? Lets hope GW will chime in, of course he
>> can't say
>> anything too spicy as a professional. :)
>>
>> When I hear 'spirits' it brings to mind the mores and language of
>> folk
>> wisdom, I haven't thought of it in this specific way.
>>
>> On 11/9/2013 11:42 AM, andrew vecsey wrote:
>> > What difference does it make what I believe. Mando seems to
>> > understand. I am thinking
>> > about personal coincidences as proof of the existence of
>> God/spirit.
>> > It is the only explanation of my personal coincidences that I
>> gave in
>> > my examples. To me they are a very loud and clear message that
>> "we
>> > are here". Can anyone explain them in another way? Can anyone
>> with
>> > mathematical skills calculate the probability of my personal
>> > coincidences I gave in my examples? It would be interesting to
>> hear
>> > other examples from other people.
>> >
>> > On Saturday, November 9, 2013 5:09:35 PM UTC+1, Allan Heretic
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > What I have not seen is just what you believe , or just what
>> is it
>> > you are trying to understand and think about. I am not sure if
>> > just what you beliefs about God are. To me Andrew that needs
>> to be
>> > clarified simply you need a common ground to develop and
>> expand
>> > ideas. I am not complaining because this topic has helped me
>> solve
>> > a problem in communicating my beliefs and explaining a
>> difficult
>> > problem.
>> >
>> > My real first question to develop common ground is just how
>> do you
>> > visualize God..
>> > I know it is stupid,, one needs to build a foundation
>> before you
>> > can build the house.
>> >
>> > Matrix -- Soul rules the body -- Do No Harm
>> > (
>> > [_D Allan H
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: andrew vecsey <andrew...@gmail.com <javascript:>>
>> > To: mind...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>
>> > Sent: Sat, 09 Nov 2013 9:07 AM
>> > Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Proof of the existence of God
>> >
>> > All those medium you require for "proof" of spirits existing
>> can
>> > be with the proper technologies falsified as illusions in
>> modern
>> > magic. With lasers you form any images and sounds that look
>> and
>> > sound real but can not be touched. You can also be
>> hypnotized to
>> > think you hear and see things that are not there. I appreciate
>> > your input to my post; I think you understand what I am
>> trying to
>> > ask and think about.
>> >
>> > On Friday, November 8, 2013 10:48:35 PM UTC+1, Mando wrote:
>> >
>> > Andrew, I will require a medium (tree, burning bush,
>> snake,
>> > human etc)
>> > and as a proof I will give signs/wonders (miracles).
>> >
>> > I was a bit confused earlier but I know get you: it's
>> not to
>> > prove
>> > God/ any spirit doesn't exist but to find how they
>> exist... I
>> > hope I
>> > haven't misinterpreted you, Andrew?
>> >
>> > Each has the right to have a belief: whether God/spirit
>> exist
>> > or not
>> > and we must tolerate or ignore it... but with your
>> (Andrew)
>> > post which
>> > being not the case I have stated is an interesting healthy
>> > discussion
>> > ' how would a spirit make us aware of it existence'?
>> >
>> > A spirit is formless so a form is required/medium most
>> of the
>> > times
>> > and then a proof of everything that SPIRIT says; miracles,
>> > wonders,
>> > signs.
>> >
>> > I agree with Allan... the interpretation of God means
>> different
>> > things to different people.
>> >
>> > Maybe I'm confusing myself more lol. I will try and do
>> some
>> > thinking
>> > about the coincidences as proof of the existence of
>> God/spirit.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 11/8/13, andrew vecsey <andrew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > Allan, I do not necessarily want to communicate with
>> them
>> > and I have
>> > > nothing to offer them. I was just thinking that
>> unexplained
>> > coincidences
>> > > like life and the 3 personal experiences I described
>> can be
>> > taken as
>> > > spirits wanting to communicate their existence to us.
>> Also I
>> > thought that
>> > > for people who demand "proof" of the existence of
>> spirits or
>> > the spiritual
>> > > world, personal coincidences are the only way that I can
>> > think of. Can you
>> > > think of any other way? Can anyone else in this think
>> tank
>> > think of another
>> > >
>> > > way?
>> > >
>> > > On Friday, November 8, 2013 4:10:18 PM UTC+1, Allan
>> Heretic
>> > wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> Why Andrew do you want to communicate with the spirit
>> > world?? Just what
>> > >> are you wanting to get from them? Just what is it you
>> have
>> > to offer them?
>> > >>
>> > >> The most effective and reliable way is to live a
>> healthy
>> > and wholesome
>> > >> spiritual life carefully obeying the universal law
>> of "Do
>> > No Harm".
>> > >> Or There are a lot of con artist willing to help you.
>> > >>
>> > >> Matrix ** th3 beginning light -- Do No Harm
>> > >> On Nov 8, 2013 3:38 PM, "andrew vecsey"
>> <andrew...@gmail.com
>> > >> <javascript:>>
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>> Getting back to the original question I anted to
>> > discuss..... Can
>> > >>> personal coincidences (seperate chance events
>> coinciding
>> > for a particular
>> > >>>
>> > >>> person) be regarded as proof of spirits
>> communicating with
>> > them to tell
>> > >>> them that they exist? Another for of the question
>> can be:
>> > If you were a
>> > >>> spirit and you wanted to communicate with someone to
>> tell
>> > them you exist,
>> > >>>
>> > >>> what would be the most reliable and most effective
>> way to
>> > do so?
>> > >>>
>> > >>> On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 7:50:55 PM UTC+1,
>> andrew
>> > vecsey wrote:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Dear group members.
>> > >>>> I would like to start a discussion on the proof of
>> the
>> > existence of God.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Unfortunately many people relate god to religions
>> and
>> > want nothing to
>> > >>>> do
>> > >>>> with it. It is a shame because I think god shows
>> itself
>> > very clearly to
>> > >>>> all
>> > >>>> in our every day lives. I published a short video
>> on this
>> > topic that I
>> > >>>> would like to share with all of you. I look
>> forward to
>> > your feedback.
>> > >>>> The
>> > >>>> text of my video is included below. The link to the
>> video
>> > is:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yBnBATkFp8&feature=c4-overview&list=
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yBnBATkFp8&feature=c4-overview&list=>
>>
>> >
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yBnBATkFp8&feature=c4-overview&list=
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yBnBATkFp8&feature=c4-overview&list=>>
>>
>> >
>> > >>>> UU9rOAPUfZe3KEja0vvFpe_A
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Most children believe in Santa Clause and tooth
>> fairies
>> > because despite
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> common sense parents claim they are real. Most adults
>> > likewise believe
>> > >>>> in
>> > >>>> god because their religious leaders claim god is
>> real.
>> > Religion
>> > >>>> teaches us that we can speak to god in prayer and
>> that
>> > our prayers are
>> > >>>> answered if we are good. Most who believe in god
>> actually
>> > merely follow
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> blindly whatever religious leaders tell them to
>> believe
>> > in the hopes
>> > >>>> that
>> > >>>> they will get something they crave for but do not
>> really
>> > need. Some
>> > >>>> religious leaders even proclaim that god punishes
>> those
>> > that are
>> > >>>> disobedient by having them burn in hell forever. Many
>> > people have
>> > >>>> difficulty believing in a god because they relate
>> god to
>> > religion. They
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> relate religion to the many religious wars and
>> atrocities
>> > that killed
>> > >>>> millions of people in the name of god. Religions
>> present
>> > god as an old
>> > >>>> man
>> > >>>> with a beard who watches over our every move and
>> knows
>> > our every
>> > >>>> intention.
>> > >>>> This god is depicted to be jealous and extremely
>> cruel.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> The first step in proving that god exists is to prove
>> > that spirits
>> > >>>> exist. Spirits softly whisper to us by giving us
>> > spontaneous thoughts
>> > >>>> call
>> > >>>> intuition which most of us do not listen to. Spirits
>> > loudly yell at us
>> > >>>> by
>> > >>>> giving us coincidences that most of us attribute to
>> > chance. Coincidences
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> are 2 or more chance events that coincide in time and
>> > place. Any one of
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> those events by itself can be attributed to pure
>> chance.
>> > When such
>> > >>>> events
>> > >>>> happen in the same place at the same time to the same
>> > person, then many
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> consider them as miracles. One such an example is
>> life
>> > itself.
>> > >>>> Everything,
>> > >>>> including life itself, is theoretically inevitable to
>> > arise from chance
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> when and if given an infinite amount of time. But
>> reality
>> > precludes
>> > >>>> infinity which is possible only in mathematics and
>> in our
>> > imagination.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> According to the latest scientific knowledge, our
>> > universe formed from a
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> single quantum hiccup about 14.5 billion years ago.
>> The
>> > chance of a
>> > >>>> single
>> > >>>> living cell evolving to a human being within the time
>> > span of 4 billion
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> years can be calculated to be a reasonable
>> possibility.
>> > The chance of
>> > >>>> life
>> > >>>> in the form of a single cell to appear within 500
>> million
>> > years after
>> > >>>> our
>> > >>>> sun and planet formed has a much lesser
>> probability of
>> > ever happening.
>> > >>>> The
>> > >>>> chance of our earth being formed just at the right
>> > distance from our sun
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> and the chance of our sun being just the right size
>> > required to harbor
>> > >>>> life
>> > >>>> within the time span of 10 billion years is orders of
>> > magnitude smaller
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> still. When we combine these 3 chance events, the
>> > coincidence of them
>> > >>>> happening are far beyond a reasonable chance of ever
>> > happening within a
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> time span of 14.5 billion years. Such coincidences of
>> > chance events
>> > >>>> happen
>> > >>>> all the time to all people. Below are a few
>> examples of such
>> > >>>> coincidences
>> > >>>> that I have personally experienced.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> One day, after a few years of having graduated from
>> > university, I
>> > >>>> thought about my class mate whom I had not
>> contacted or
>> > even thought
>> > >>>> about
>> > >>>> since we were in school together. I wondered how he
>> was
>> > doing so I
>> > >>>> looked
>> > >>>> up his phone number and gave him a call. I dialed his
>> > number and before
>> > >>>> I
>> > >>>> got a ring tone, I found him on line. He explained
>> that
>> > the same urge
>> > >>>> came
>> > >>>> over him to call me and he as well found me on line
>> > before getting a
>> > >>>> ring
>> > >>>> tone.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> In another example, a friend I was visiting was
>> missing
>> > the very last
>> > >>>> piece of a puzzle she was working on. It was part
>> of a
>> > blue sky. Having
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> looked for the missing puzzle piece everywhere
>> > unsuccessfully I drove
>> > >>>> back
>> > >>>> home. About 400 km away, I parked my car on the
>> shoulder
>> > of the road to
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> have a pee. As I was peeing, to my surprise I was
>> > uncovering a blue
>> > >>>> puzzle
>> > >>>> piece that lay buried in the sand. When I told her
>> about
>> > this, she
>> > >>>> refused
>> > >>>> to see me again.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> A third coincidence I would like to share is hearing
>> > about a friend of a
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> friend and meeting her by chance 5,000 km away a few
>> > weeks later while I
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> was on holiday.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> There are people who would like to be able to
>> believe in
>> > a god without
>> > >>>> religious constraints, but demand physical proof of
>> his
>> > existence. Some
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> claim that whenever they narrowly escape an
>> inevitable
>> > death that
>> > >>>> guardian
>> > >>>> angles must have been watching over to save them.
>> Others
>> > claim that
>> > >>>> perhaps
>> > >>>> those lucky people who escaped death by the skin of
>> their
>> > teeth were
>> > >>>> actually targeted by angels that wanted to kill
>> them but
>> > just happened
>> > >>>> to
>> > >>>> fail to hit their target.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> If you ever win the big prize in the lottery,
>> consider
>> > yourself just
>> > >>>> really lucky. After all, someone has to win. But if
>> you
>> > get hit and
>> > >>>> killed
>> > >>>> by lightning soon after winning that lottery,
>> consider
>> > yourself blessed.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> After all, most poor winners end up with more
>> problems
>> > and end up
>> > >>>> unhappy
>> > >>>> as new millionaires.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> --
>> > >>>
>> > >>> ---
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