I think a good start would be starving the beast. Force government to spend less because we refuse to pay more. Slowly chip away at he beast and begin eliminating the more odious government agencies. The IRS comes to mind. Not that I think this could ever actually happen but I can fantasize can't I? We have politicians that have espoused such notions(Rand Paul, Ron Paul, Ted Cruz) but nobody, even them really, thinks it could happen. If we get a VAT tax it will be on top of all the other taxes we already pay instead of in place of.
Arch have you read Albert Jay Nock's "Our Enemy, The State"? I was just reading about this book and then found it on the net free. http://mises.org/etexts/ourenemy.pdf The guy predicted the future before George Orwell's 1984. Scary and sad.
Also, another author I've discovered that writes books right up your alley is Barbara Oakley. Most recent effort is something called "Pathological Altruism"(I can't afford it) but something you said below reminded me of "Evil Genes" a treatise on the neurology and psychology of evil geniuses and the author's own sister. She's an interesting gal(Barbara, not her sister) and I like the way she writes.
I've pretty much resigned myself to the New World Order. I've "gotten in line" as it were. I may not believe it's the right system for the path to prosperity but I'm not fool enough to pass on the goodles being offered out of some altruistic notion of purity or even pride. I've been beaten. My side lost and we're well past the point of no return now. I don't know why I continue to read stuff like "Our Enemy, The State" it's like self flagellation. O what we COULD have been if we weren't all such sheep jumping of the cliff.
On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 4:12 PM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
I take all your points rigs - maybe not the Freudian one. I've just
walked Max in the 7-acre retreat round the corner. It's getting
summer use now and this means beer cans and other rubbish - almost as
sad as much that clutters the Internet, television and film.
Rather than blaming leaders (though literature on them as psychopaths
is legion) I want us to understand the system in which they emerge. I
think we could approach it from a number of 'points of origin'.
Biology is my first - essentially knowing more about what the
biological individual is in co-evolution (we consider 21 forms of
individual in the tripartite view). There is some scientific
sociology - social epidemiology (Richard Wilkinson) that tells us big
disparities in wealth within our societies is bad for health. I
generally doubt psychology and economics is largely a scholasticism of
the rich. Brain science is getting us somewhere, but is often over-
hyped. We need a wider systems theory (which would include art and
literature) - my sense of this is it would be about creating workable
democracy and not put up with the usual excuses given for us not to be
able to do the decent thing or swallow the latest old promises from
left or right.
Another place to start is in thinking what you or I (generally) would
or could do if we occupied a position like President or Chancellor.
Our current Chancellor (Osbourne) is a rich time-waster (Toff) with a
third-class degree in history and one wonders what role he could play
in economic discussion. But what advice would you or I get and how
would we dare go against it or try anything radical? I suspect we'd
be presented with a spreadsheet offering little real flexibility. No
politician anywhere in the world is offering a real Plan B. I'm
probably better trained in the subject area than you, but guess this
would make little, if any, practical difference in the power game. I
suspect we'd both be even worse if we'd been routinised through what's
needed to be done to get political power! The point of wondering what
anyone would do in power is really to build ideas of what power
practice is and rid ourselves of some of the dafter ideology involved
about leadership. Our leaders generally look like nodding donkeys of
the Establishment and in exasperation we might try the same strategy
and sing from the hymn-sheets we were given.
I generally think we need less of a very different type of government
and a key area for change concerns crime and corruption. Underlying
the change we clearly need is the 'deficit theory' of bringing people
up to knowledge speed to be able to make democratic decisions. I see
this as a hopeless cause and we should focus on the form of leadership
instead. Real technology, as opposed to Apple and Samsung toys could
give us a transparency that could change the form of leadership
(Barbara Kellerman's 'The End of Leadership' is a good introduction to
our fixations - you can get the drift free at Amazon).
I tend to think of god after a fair, secular order (very Spinoza) and
accept being here clinging to this rock is weird enough to leave
religion in our lives - if preferably out of mine if I have to profess
belief in talking snakes or locking girls up at 13.
> ...On 14 June, 13:03, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sounds Freudian. Blaming the leaders is like blaming parents and
> doesn't pass the "ignorance is no excuse" plea.
>
> On Jun 14, 1:35 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I agree with you Gabby,, like the idea of political leaders becoming
> > unfit,,that can apply to business and church leaders also; with rare
> > exception,
>
> > On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 2:55 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > There is a lot common to left and right positions - most of the
> > > arguments of both contain the same fallacies. I mean who in their
> > > right mind would suggest the way forward lies in creating Soviet or
> > > Maoist Paradise? Or the pathetic road to serfdom under the world's
> > > plutocrats? I rather like the idea of a union of free workers from
> > > Eurasia to the UK, but the Nazis were the last to advocate that. We
> > > talk about democracy as though there is one we can point to' Iran has
> > > elections tomorrow and like the Soviets you can vote for a choice or
> > > leader from a list chosen by the real government (all hard-liners, or
> > > moderate hard-liners, or one hard-line moderate) - but were Brown-
> > > Cameron or Obama-Romney our choices (less so in the UK as we don't
> > > have primaries).
> > > Deep down, the races that produce leaders are entirely unfit at - er -
> > > producing leaders. They are as relevant as sports in producing
> > > personalities. Anyone who can survive in our political parties learns
> > > the political game and is thus unfit to be a representative. Left and
> > > right are both neo-liberal and as voters we are so ignorant
> > > psychopaths convince us more readily than decent people. There are
> > > many alternatives given modern technology and sortition. Now we can't
> > > even vote for a full-employment economy.
> > > The right has long wanted freedom from government, the left government
> > > that frees us from government we don't vote for. Maybe we all want
> > > freedom from something else or the roads to this are not politics as
> > > we have the stuff?
>
> > > On 13 June, 21:28, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I tend to see the same principles operating on (leftish) solidarity and
> > > > (righteous) tolerance. Like the Golden Calf that is never to grow old and
> > > > wise enough to find its peace in a 70+ group, for instance, while life is
> > > > spinning and spinning...
>
> > > > 2013/6/13 Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>
> > > > in
>
> > > > > Me I am a lefty I believe in the development of mankind not the
> > > individual
> > > > > or the individual greed.
> > > > > I can not defend my spiritual beliefs from the right.. I do not have to
> > > > > defend them from the left..
>
> > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 7:14 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> Class, race, religious and other shoes rarely fit rigs. I'm not
> > > > >> really an old leftie either.
>
> > > > >> On 10 June, 13:01, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> > Love to hear it sometime.
>
> > > > >> > On Jun 10, 7:49 am, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > > The shoe does not fit. I would identify myself as a moderate and
> > > > >> > > independent. People assume I am a Liberal/leftie...but that is
> > > another
> > > > >> > > story.
>
> > > > >> > > On Jun 8, 5:10 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > > > In terms of organising concepts like class rigs is a
> > > conservative
> > > > >> and
> > > > >> > > > I'm an old leftie. One would hope this is no reason for us not
> > > to
> > > > >> > > > charitable to each other on a personal basis. And, of course,
> > > none
> > > > >> of
> > > > >> > > > us conforms to such groups entirely. In fact I expect everyone
> > > in
> > > > >> > > > this group is concerned with the collapse of civic society in
> > > > >> > > > Machiavelli's terms as outlined with a few quotes above.
>
> > > > >> > > > On 8 June, 09:02, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > > > > You need to look into the activities of a lot of the rich..
> > > > >> there where
> > > > >> > > > > some that were very good and honest but many of them were no
> > > > >> more than
> > > > >> > > > > thieves that really did not like today give a damn about any
> > > one
> > > > >> else other
> > > > >> > > > > than themselves.. you like glossed over history..
>
> > > > >> > > > > On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 2:39 AM, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >> > > > > > I doubt if America could have been the success it has been
> > > > >> without the
> > > > >> > > > > > rich. Yes- there have been bad apples but who built the
> > > > >> railroads, the
> > > > >> > > > > > cities, the factories, the war supplies, the libraries, the
> > > > >> private
> > > > >> > > > > > universities, the medical industry, technology,etc? Money
> > > won
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > > > > Civil War and WWII. Even Christ knew what was up- render to
> > > > >> Caesar and
> > > > >> > > > > > render unto God.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > On Jun 7, 9:11 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> > > > > > > Not really Rigsy -- there is a lot of corruption and
> > > > >> immorality
> > > > >> > > > > > involved
> > > > >> > > > > > > the rich for the most part are very self centered focusing
> > > > >> mainly on
> > > > >> > > > > > their
> > > > >> > > > > > > interests and not those of humanity as a whole. you can
> > > > >> claim yo have
> > > > >> > > > > > not
> > > > >> > > > > > > done it but you are riding on the shirt tails of those
> > > who
> > > > >> have.. this
> > > > >> > > > > > > action only encourages them...
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > the excuse of being enabled by the government and laws
> > > does
> > > > >> not really
> > > > >> > > > > > hold
> > > > >> > > > > > > water.. especially on the spiritual plane,, sorry Rigsy
> > > > >> you have been
> > > > >> > > > > > > alerted to the problem.. but do as you want
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 3:49 PM, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >> > > > > > > > The rich are enabled by the government and laws.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > > On Jun 7, 12:18 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > We could probably find something like that in Mein
> > > Kampf
> > > > >> too Molly.
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > Andrew is on to something with the forgiveness angle.
> > > We
> > > > >> might have
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > to do a lot of that when it dawns on us we've been
> > > had on
> > > > >> a butty by
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > the rich.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > On May 27, 1:04 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Just found this in my mailbox:
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > "As soon as you trust yourself, you will know how to
> > > > >> live." -
> > > > >> > > > > > Goethe
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > On May 26, 4:05 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>
> > > > >> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > well Rigsy they are lucky i do not tell others
> > > how
> > > > >> to do it,,
> > > > >> > > > > > > > simply
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > because it is easy enough ,,, so to be
> > > democratic I
> > > > >> am
> > > > >> > > > > > supposed to
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > approve of the actions of the majority of those
> > > that
> > > > >> are raping
> > > > >> > > > > > and
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > pillaging the government to line their pockets..
> > > but
> > > > >> I forget
> > > > >> > > > > > you
> > > > >> > > > > > > > love
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > those ?good? guys.. defending their actions at
> > > every
> > > > >> turn
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 11:30 PM, rigs <
> > > > >> rigs...@gmail.com>
> > > > >> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > You are not a very good example of a democratic
> > > > >> society when
> > > > >> > > > > > you
> > > > >> > > > > > > > talk
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > like that Allan. No wonder it doesn't work.
> > > Found a
> > > > >> fake bill
> > > > >> > > > > > with
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > anti-FDR slogans when my father was in
> > > Hollywood so
> > > > >> the rift
> > > > >> > > > > > goes
> > > > >> > > > > > > > on
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > and on, I guess. Actually, the types in Dante's
> > > > >> Inferno are
> > > > >> > > > > > with us
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > still- am down to the Florentine bankers.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > On May 25, 1:51 pm, Allan H <
> > > allanh1...@gmail.com>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > what Gabby sent was right.. what is the thing
> > > > >> with the
> > > > >> > > > > > prisoner
> > > > >> > > > > > > > of war
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > camp the US insist on keeping or at least
> > > the
> > > > >> republicans
> > > > >> > > > > > > > insist on..
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > actually It would be fun to set up a house of
> > > > >> horrors
> > > > >> > > > > > > > especially built
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > for them.. bet in three days or less I could
> > > > >> get them
> > > > >> > > > > > willing
> > > > >> > > > > > > > to
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > resign
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > form politics and give me all their personal
> > > > >> money and family
> > > > >> > > > > > > > fortunes..
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is I am not allowed to do harm
> > > so
> > > > >> sad sometimes
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 8:18 PM, archytas <
> > > > >> nwte...@gmail.com
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lovely Gabby.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't other than agree Molly. I've held
> > > (as
> > > > >> long as
> > > > >> > > > > > Allan
> > > > >> > > > > > > > has his
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > soul-god thingy) that there is far less
> > > > >> individual about
> > > > >> > > > > > the
> > > > >> > > > > > > > human
> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that we think - Gabby mentions a bit of the
>
>
> read more »
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