Re: Mind's Eye Selfishness, greed and morality

I meet very few really intelligent people and know how dumb I can be.
I don't go for any idea that genuinely clever decisions are being made
on much. I once tried to convince academic staff in a dull college
that our Tory government would just make all our polytechnics into
universities. They were all appalled at any such suggestion. No one
could possibly apply such a broad brush solution. Every case would be
properly evaluated on its merits. I was right of course. Politicians
like simple solutions - I doubt they can understand much more than
simple arithmetic and a few PR tricks. None of the college staff
understood the reason underlying the expansion of UK higher education
in any case - that too was simple and solely concerned with expanding
higher education as a business on an international basis.
My guess is the reasoning for atomic bombing, war revenge and the rest
was no more complicated - if it was how could an old duffer like
Churchill have understood? Our current prime minister, Cameron, is a
clone of Blair, himself Thatcher in drag - I suspect your US
politicians are very similar. I have a general theory that the scum
we elect are drawn from a small pool - a modern equivalent of the old
British Oxbridge set - and remembering the Cambridge spies - I suspect
this pool must be highly manipulable by the politburo of the powerful
(think how much easier it must be for them as opposed to a bunch of
Soviet duffers). I've seen structuralist analysis of the people I
taught in my time in more prestigious business schools and the
connections and networking leave little room for any of the system
being based on "equal opportunities". I hardly remember more than a
few students not already on he make rather than genuinely curious
about the world. The conspiracy is not clever and doesn't have to
be. My sense of it is that most people will act badly once in
leadership positions - maybe even me (and I know I have sometimes).
I'm too old now, but in rigs' terms of decisions that 'sweep' I would
take up arms against a lot of my principles and knowing it likely even
my own side was conning me into action. I think pacifists are
generally free-riders unless they run towards the bullets.

On Feb 21, 2:04 pm, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes- revenge was a factor- that's part of motive. Films I have watched
> attribute Hitler's bombing of London and the Brit's stiff resolve.
> Yes- killing to save lives is a messy thought, isn't it? (Really like
> some social arguments of equal this and that and the use of shame as a
> tactic.)//Wars may be murky as to causes despite those outlines in
> history classes. A good deal is economic- some theft- envy- a way to
> unite a fragmented population- meglomania/hubris, etc. Maybe
> (some)humans have a destructive tendency as they certainly seem ready
> to tear countries, companies, reputations apart- let's not blame
> mother and early childhood frustrations. The decision winds up having
> an energy that sweeps all in its path.
>
> On Feb 20, 8:13 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > The firebombings weren't really justified on account of eliminating
> > war production rigs - I'm sure you know.  Indeed, a lot of Anglo-US
> > funded production in Germany was spared.  No doubt we were well into
> > 'revenge' by then.  Even the Dambuster raids were failures in terms of
> > stopping production.  It's very doubtful we really needed to use the
> > atomic weapons and firebombing in Japan.  There's been a lot of
> > philosophical discussion of such since Machiavelli - more recently
> > thus 'Should political leaders violate the deepest constraints of
> > morality in order to achieve great goods or avoid disasters for their
> > communities? This question poses what has become known amongst
> > philosophers as the problem of dirty hands.'
>
> > Hard to stand in judgement once one realises the horror of the world
> > wars - but this said I'm not sure we really know how they started.
> > People in the Middle East hardly think any current war started on
> > 9/11.  Even Clinton fired 68 cruise missiles around the time Monica
> > blew him off (reminding me a bit of the old joke that 68 is better
> > than 69 - you leave owing one).  I have no time for moral philosophy
> > because its finest words (virtue ethics, some religion) come from
> > people oblivious to slavery as just wrong - making John Brown more of
> > a 'hero' in his religious lunacy than Socrates.
>
> > I believe the 9/11 strategy probably started in the divide and rule
> > aspect of the British Empire - the one Hitler thought a good model.
> > One can find the concentration camps, slavery and lust after
> > commodities (gold, silver, sugar, drugs, oil, gas, water) and the
> > involvement of rentier finance from the Crusades (and Jihad) and
> > Conquistadors onwards.  I think we have an enemy within (mostly
> > financial) and the war is largely phony.  None of this stops me
> > knowing which way to point my rifle (there is much vile on the other
> > side), by I'm not having the 'war on terror' claptrap.  Few 'jihadis'
> > I met knew much ideology.  I used to think they lacked education -
> > until I turned my eye back on my peers and realised they were as
> > duped.  We might once have stood back to back fighting off hostiles
> > rigs - but self-preservation is enough motivation in such for me - the
> > hatred and stereotyping of 9/11 propaganda is both everywhere and a
> > farce.  Protecting your face might launch my boat but crooks like the
> > Bush family never will.
>
> > On Feb 20, 1:43 pm, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Wars undertaken need to be won or lost. You can't justify any actions-
> > > consider our use of firebombings in WWII over civilian areas- the
> > > excuse being eliminating war production and transport. At any rate, we
> > > are in a new era with hits to the underbelly instead of direct
> > > confrontation.
>
> > > On Feb 19, 1:21 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I am not a fan of war..  killing is not right..   I have said in the
> > > > past that I think surgical strikes like the  that was brought against
> > > > Ben Lauden (how ever it is spelled) and drone strikes might be a
> > > > preferred way rather than murdering masses of soldiers.
>
> > > > You cannot support wars that are for the ego of Presidents, that are
> > > > producing false evidence  to justify it..  and the killing of non
> > > > combatants by mass bombing..  all those people should be imprisoned
> > > > for life because of the murders the order others to commit..
>
> > > > Actually that does not matter they will no longer be able to hide or
> > > > justify their actions..  sadly it is a price their souls will pay but
> > > > their souls knew the effect before they took the actions
>
> > > > On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:17 PM, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Me too! :-) What was I thinking?//Okay- we support the politics that
> > > > > serves our interest is what I guess I meant. But we might support
> > > > > politics contrary to our beliefs in time of war or other disasters
> > > > > requiring unity and sacrifice. As for suffrage, the votes were dished
> > > > > out to garner support from individuals or groups to thereby get
> > > > > elected and weld power.//It is also like church shopping.
>
> > > > > On Feb 18, 5:54 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> I'd need that explained rigs.
>
> > > > >> On Feb 17, 10:59 am, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > The same could be said of political power/universal suffrage.
>
> > > > >> > On Feb 16, 3:51 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > > The turning of greed to the essential element of our economic
> > > > >> > > salvation is very significant, making economics itself libidinal.
> > > > >> > > With this admission, the pretence that economics could be an aggregate
> > > > >> > > of individual choice by rational people should be very difficult to
> > > > >> > > maintain.
>
> > > > >> > > On Feb 16, 7:50 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > > > The emotion of fear is the big detractor...
>
> > > > >> > > > On Feb 15, 11:33 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > > > > In almost all computer simulations I've seen selfishness only works in
> > > > >> > > > > 'new markets' and after that cooperation wins.  Stephen Pinker has a
> > > > >> > > > > book out summarizing why modern societies are more peaceful (despite
> > > > >> > > > > wars) than primitive ones as does Jared Diamond.  What's gone wrong is
> > > > >> > > > > out institutions have not developed to full democracy.  In many senses
> > > > >> > > > > we are not modern at all.  My suspicion is that we haven't worked out
> > > > >> > > > > how to be modern in a way that combines science and religion.  Science
> > > > >> > > > > a la Dawkins is just another religion with vested interests vying with
> > > > >> > > > > those of churches, mosques and temples.  What I know of physics,
> > > > >> > > > > chemistry, biology and maths in no way gives me much clue why we cling
> > > > >> > > > > to this rock as opposed to giving up to gnostic nothingness. I don't
> > > > >> > > > > do religion because I can't stand the lack of  intellectual honesty,
> > > > >> > > > > but this doesn't stop me wanting religious fellowship.  I'd rather see
> > > > >> > > > > this as something concerned with how we might develop and can become
> > > > >> > > > > with science and a more global morality - living in peace with respect
> > > > >> > > > > for others and the planet - a planet we will have to leave for selfish
> > > > >> > > > > survival - and we may have to leave as 'not human'.
> > > > >> > > > > Science and our tiny space adventures have shown we are not fitted for
> > > > >> > > > > space flight, is hinting other livable planets may be as close as 13
> > > > >> > > > > light-years and gives us fantasy notions of getting to the edge of the
> > > > >> > > > > universe in 28 relativity bubble years - during which time billions of
> > > > >> > > > > years will have evaporated where we started from and go to - we might
> > > > >> > > > > well emerge at the end point billions of years out of date!  Quite how
> > > > >> > > > > one would 'drive' from somewhere that will cease to exist to somewhere
> > > > >> > > > > that as yet does not I don't know.
>
> > > > >> > > > > 'Driving' in space requires front-back and up-down awareness -
> > > > >> > > > > something dizzying if you lie in bed dreaming what it would be like.
> > > > >> > > > > Getting up to speeds fast enough to get us 13 light-years in
> > > > >> > > > > reasonable time may not be too hard - but we also have to miss
> > > > >> > > > > everything in a moving field whilst travelling very fast (unimaginably
> > > > >> > > > > fast) and be able to stop (there are possibilities we could use space-
> > > > >> > > > > curvature to do this).  My guess is our drivers would have to be
> > > > >> > > > > android or cyborg and the rest of us genetically altered and in
> > > > >> > > > > cryostasis.  We don't know what gravity is but we do know we don't
> > > > >> > > > > live well without it  It may even be that all we can do to leave the
> > > > >> > > > > planet will be to send life-spores of somekind out to undergo
> > > > >> > > > > evolution again.
>
> > > > >> > > > > Of course, we don't really know what the current state of technology
> > > > >> > > > > is let alone what we might know and have in the future.  Our salvation
> > > > >> > > > > might yet lie in the 'dark'.  What we don't see now is that we have
> > > > >> > > > > sufficient technology to establish global peace and good living,
> > > > >> > > > > subject to population restraint and could be working much harder on
> > > > >> > > > > stuff like fusion reactors, wind, solar and hydroelectric (etc.) -
> > > > >> > > > > solar and wind now compete on price with coal.  Instead, we get
> > > > >> > > > > claptrap about the 'growth economy' - which is full of poor
> > > > >> > > > > entertainment, fashion trinkets and the rest - a financial system that
> > > > >> > > > > is a total control fraud - and this gets me back to Andrew's point on
> > > > >> > > > > 'what is selfishness'?  I suspect that for selfishness to work it has
>
> ...
>
> read more »

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