Re: Mind's Eye Selfishness, greed and morality

True but Japan also feared Russia's declaration of war/invasion and
finally surrendered.

On Feb 21, 1:02 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I know the reasoning behind the Atomic bombing  and I tend to think
> the logic was right..   the reasoning was that if japan was invaded
> every man woman and child would fight and die protecting the ruler..
> they were and are right..  still don't agree..  it was done to save
> american lives.
>
> Islam is not a religion but rather a system of political domination//
>
> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 3:13 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrot
>
>
>
> > The firebombings weren't really justified on account of eliminating
> > war production rigs - I'm sure you know.  Indeed, a lot of Anglo-US
> > funded production in Germany was spared.  No doubt we were well into
> > 'revenge' by then.  Even the Dambuster raids were failures in terms of
> > stopping production.  It's very doubtful we really needed to use the
> > atomic weapons and firebombing in Japan.  There's been a lot of
> > philosophical discussion of such since Machiavelli - more recently
> > thus 'Should political leaders violate the deepest constraints of
> > morality in order to achieve great goods or avoid disasters for their
> > communities? This question poses what has become known amongst
> > philosophers as the problem of dirty hands.'
>
> > Hard to stand in judgement once one realises the horror of the world
> > wars - but this said I'm not sure we really know how they started.
> > People in the Middle East hardly think any current war started on
> > 9/11.  Even Clinton fired 68 cruise missiles around the time Monica
> > blew him off (reminding me a bit of the old joke that 68 is better
> > than 69 - you leave owing one).  I have no time for moral philosophy
> > because its finest words (virtue ethics, some religion) come from
> > people oblivious to slavery as just wrong - making John Brown more of
> > a 'hero' in his religious lunacy than Socrates.
>
> > I believe the 9/11 strategy probably started in the divide and rule
> > aspect of the British Empire - the one Hitler thought a good model.
> > One can find the concentration camps, slavery and lust after
> > commodities (gold, silver, sugar, drugs, oil, gas, water) and the
> > involvement of rentier finance from the Crusades (and Jihad) and
> > Conquistadors onwards.  I think we have an enemy within (mostly
> > financial) and the war is largely phony.  None of this stops me
> > knowing which way to point my rifle (there is much vile on the other
> > side), by I'm not having the 'war on terror' claptrap.  Few 'jihadis'
> > I met knew much ideology.  I used to think they lacked education -
> > until I turned my eye back on my peers and realised they were as
> > duped.  We might once have stood back to back fighting off hostiles
> > rigs - but self-preservation is enough motivation in such for me - the
> > hatred and stereotyping of 9/11 propaganda is both everywhere and a
> > farce.  Protecting your face might launch my boat but crooks like the
> > Bush family never will.
>
> > On Feb 20, 1:43 pm, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Wars undertaken need to be won or lost. You can't justify any actions-
> >> consider our use of firebombings in WWII over civilian areas- the
> >> excuse being eliminating war production and transport. At any rate, we
> >> are in a new era with hits to the underbelly instead of direct
> >> confrontation.
>
> >> On Feb 19, 1:21 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > I am not a fan of war..  killing is not right..   I have said in the
> >> > past that I think surgical strikes like the  that was brought against
> >> > Ben Lauden (how ever it is spelled) and drone strikes might be a
> >> > preferred way rather than murdering masses of soldiers.
>
> >> > You cannot support wars that are for the ego of Presidents, that are
> >> > producing false evidence  to justify it..  and the killing of non
> >> > combatants by mass bombing..  all those people should be imprisoned
> >> > for life because of the murders the order others to commit..
>
> >> > Actually that does not matter they will no longer be able to hide or
> >> > justify their actions..  sadly it is a price their souls will pay but
> >> > their souls knew the effect before they took the actions
>
> >> > On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:17 PM, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > Me too! :-) What was I thinking?//Okay- we support the politics that
> >> > > serves our interest is what I guess I meant. But we might support
> >> > > politics contrary to our beliefs in time of war or other disasters
> >> > > requiring unity and sacrifice. As for suffrage, the votes were dished
> >> > > out to garner support from individuals or groups to thereby get
> >> > > elected and weld power.//It is also like church shopping.
>
> >> > > On Feb 18, 5:54 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >> I'd need that explained rigs.
>
> >> > >> On Feb 17, 10:59 am, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > >> > The same could be said of political power/universal suffrage.
>
> >> > >> > On Feb 16, 3:51 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > >> > > The turning of greed to the essential element of our economic
> >> > >> > > salvation is very significant, making economics itself libidinal.
> >> > >> > > With this admission, the pretence that economics could be an aggregate
> >> > >> > > of individual choice by rational people should be very difficult to
> >> > >> > > maintain.
>
> >> > >> > > On Feb 16, 7:50 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > >> > > > The emotion of fear is the big detractor...
>
> >> > >> > > > On Feb 15, 11:33 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > >> > > > > In almost all computer simulations I've seen selfishness only works in
> >> > >> > > > > 'new markets' and after that cooperation wins.  Stephen Pinker has a
> >> > >> > > > > book out summarizing why modern societies are more peaceful (despite
> >> > >> > > > > wars) than primitive ones as does Jared Diamond.  What's gone wrong is
> >> > >> > > > > out institutions have not developed to full democracy.  In many senses
> >> > >> > > > > we are not modern at all.  My suspicion is that we haven't worked out
> >> > >> > > > > how to be modern in a way that combines science and religion.  Science
> >> > >> > > > > a la Dawkins is just another religion with vested interests vying with
> >> > >> > > > > those of churches, mosques and temples.  What I know of physics,
> >> > >> > > > > chemistry, biology and maths in no way gives me much clue why we cling
> >> > >> > > > > to this rock as opposed to giving up to gnostic nothingness. I don't
> >> > >> > > > > do religion because I can't stand the lack of  intellectual honesty,
> >> > >> > > > > but this doesn't stop me wanting religious fellowship.  I'd rather see
> >> > >> > > > > this as something concerned with how we might develop and can become
> >> > >> > > > > with science and a more global morality - living in peace with respect
> >> > >> > > > > for others and the planet - a planet we will have to leave for selfish
> >> > >> > > > > survival - and we may have to leave as 'not human'.
> >> > >> > > > > Science and our tiny space adventures have shown we are not fitted for
> >> > >> > > > > space flight, is hinting other livable planets may be as close as 13
> >> > >> > > > > light-years and gives us fantasy notions of getting to the edge of the
> >> > >> > > > > universe in 28 relativity bubble years - during which time billions of
> >> > >> > > > > years will have evaporated where we started from and go to - we might
> >> > >> > > > > well emerge at the end point billions of years out of date!  Quite how
> >> > >> > > > > one would 'drive' from somewhere that will cease to exist to somewhere
> >> > >> > > > > that as yet does not I don't know.
>
> >> > >> > > > > 'Driving' in space requires front-back and up-down awareness -
> >> > >> > > > > something dizzying if you lie in bed dreaming what it would be like.
> >> > >> > > > > Getting up to speeds fast enough to get us 13 light-years in
> >> > >> > > > > reasonable time may not be too hard - but we also have to miss
> >> > >> > > > > everything in a moving field whilst travelling very fast (unimaginably
> >> > >> > > > > fast) and be able to stop (there are possibilities we could use space-
> >> > >> > > > > curvature to do this).  My guess is our drivers would have to be
> >> > >> > > > > android or cyborg and the rest of us genetically altered and in
> >> > >> > > > > cryostasis.  We don't know what gravity is but we do know we don't
> >> > >> > > > > live well without it  It may even be that all we can do to leave the
> >> > >> > > > > planet will be to send life-spores of somekind out to undergo
> >> > >> > > > > evolution again.
>
> >> > >> > > > > Of course, we don't really know what the current state of technology
> >> > >> > > > > is let alone what we might know and have in the future.  Our salvation
> >> > >> > > > > might yet lie in the 'dark'.  What we don't see now is that we have
> >> > >> > > > > sufficient technology to establish global peace and good living,
> >> > >> > > > > subject to population restraint and could be working much harder on
> >> > >> > > > > stuff like fusion reactors, wind, solar and hydroelectric (etc.) -
> >> > >> > > > > solar and wind now compete on price with coal.  Instead, we get
> >> > >> > > > > claptrap about the 'growth economy' - which is full of poor
> >> > >> > > > > entertainment, fashion trinkets and the rest - a financial system that
> >> > >> > > > > is a total control fraud - and this gets me back to Andrew's point on
> >> > >> > > > > 'what is selfishness'?  I suspect that for selfishness to work it has
> >> > >> > > > > to be hidden - either disguised as in the politician's speech or
> >> > >> > > > > through ideologies that turn it into a 'good'.
>
> >> > >> > > > > I'm not much on consensus - I know how insects establish it (piercing
> >> > >> > > > > shrieks - to them - and hygiene - meaning killing off dissent) and
> >> > >> > > > > reason quickly gets very unreasonable as most of us don't know enough
> >> > >> > > > > to be able to agree
>
> ...
>
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