Re: Mind's Eye Re: thought experiments

That's one of the crucial issues Allan - the original free-table was
based in a slave economy. Wages involved in providing me with a
decent coffee and snack I want are lousy - those involved in ripping
fees for financial services I'd be happier were a government utility
are generally better. What might the motivation to work be stripped
of the necessity of income? Some doubt there would be any.

I'm about to do a short course so I can assess management apprentices
- something I've done for 20 years (I even wrote and enacted some of
the pilots). The only motivation is to be able to be a fee-taker -
with some thought my students at least aren't being stuck with $70K
debt. I wouldn't have taken well to the Villa Borghese being full of
lager louts last weekend. It's hard to imagine what society would be
without money-differentiation. Neighbours are beggared throughout the
animal kingdom in order that a few get art and even good nosh with
friends.

Stephen Pinker has a book out on human pacification at the moment -
suggesting our institutions get some things right. I tend to agree -
but I'm also sure we are screwing up the land of plenty.

On 1 Nov, 07:09, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> that is very true but where would they get cheap to essentially slave
> labor,,  they need to put the gold in their pockets so they can pay
> homage to their god the golden calf..
> Allan
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> On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 11:35 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The good dream side of this is what you say Lee.  But the thought
> > experiment is a challenge to current ideology.  I've noticed over the
> > years that the most passionate defenders of the protestant work ethic
> > don't do jobs involving hard work for low pay.
>
> > On Oct 26, 2:19 pm, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Ahhhh robot heaven is my ideal.
>
> >> It gets rid of money as nobody would need to barter goods or services
> >> to survive, it would mean that humans can spend more time growing and
> >> learning, and can you imagine the various works of art, in all media?
>
> >> Now of course the thing to consider is the transitional period, and I guess
> >> this is Archy's main thrust.  Our history shows us that
> >> such transitional periods are fraught with violence and upheaval, I suspect
> >> a move to robotic heaven would be little different.
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> >> So we have robots a plenty and much work going on in robotics.  I suspect
> >> the next thing we'll have to sort is robots that make and repair robots.
>
> >> Should we concentrate then on food and water production and distribution?
> >>  Why yes I think we should.
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> >> Get that done and then nobody has to pay for food or water, ahhh now we are
> >> getting somewhere.  A world full of thinkers and artists!
>
> >> Energy next?
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> >> On Wednesday, 19 September 2012 22:56:36 UTC+1, archytas wrote:
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> >> > Thought experiments are devices of the imagination used to investigate
> >> > the nature of things. Thought experimenting often takes place when the
> >> > method of variation is employed in entertaining imaginative
> >> > suppositions. They are used for diverse reasons in a variety of areas,
> >> > including economics, history, mathematics, philosophy, and physics.
> >> > Most often thought experiments are communicated in narrative form,
> >> > sometimes through media like a diagram. Thought experiments should be
> >> > distinguished from thinking about experiments, from merely imagining
> >> > any experiments to be conducted outside the imagination, and from
> >> > psychological experiments with thoughts. They should also be
> >> > distinguished from counterfactual reasoning in general, as they seem
> >> > to require an experimental element.
> >> >http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/thought-experiment/
>
> >> > One I like is the notion of robot heaven.  It's easy enough to imagine
> >> > a time when machines grow our food, build our shelter and do our
> >> > work.  The interesting stuff comes in thinking what this would mean
> >> > for wealth distribution and the nature of society.  What work would be
> >> > left to do?  One can also wonder what place any of our work ethics
> >> > would have in such a society.  There may be some deconstructive effect
> >> > on just what current work ideologies are in place for.
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> >> > One of the great improvements technology brought to my life is more or
> >> > less never having to go into a bank.  The only real innovations in
> >> > banking are the ATM and electronic banking.  This kind of technology
> >> > and similar in agriculture and industry fundamentally reduce the
> >> > amount of human effort to grow and make what we need.  We are in
> >> > partial state of robot heaven.
>
> >> > Our ideologies are not up to speed.  Real unemployment is massive and
> >> > education does little to provide job skills.  We are sold life-styles
> >> > and products by insane advertising.  Job creation seems to be in
> >> > perverse areas like financial services or bringing back attended gas-
> >> > pumps.  With more efficient production we should be able to afford a
> >> > bigger social sector and I can't for the life of me understand why we
> >> > allow competition through crap wages and conditions.
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> >> > A great deal of what we pay for could be available more or less free.
> >> > Educational content and utility banking are examples - these are areas
> >> > that could be ratinalised like agriculture and manufacturing.
> >> > Millions of jobs would go.  We should be asking why jobs are so
> >> > central to out thinking on wealth distribution and how we might
> >> > encourage work without the rat race.
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> > --
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> --
>  (
>   )
> |_D Allan
>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> I am a Natural Airgunner -
>
>  Full of Hot Air & Ready To Expel It Quickly.

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