no Mal I really don't buy the blank table concept,, there is the built in moral code which all souls know and understand,, evolutionary traits are written in.. one thing it is not is blank,, accessing this information like reading and writing is not that difficult, other than the spiritual law of do no harm. the rest of the information is difficult to access.
Yes Gabby,The human conditioning that lies with us on the blank table: our evolutionary successful traits.Things that we can just do like learn to talk. Not the hard things like learn to write.
On Monday, June 18, 2012 9:48:07 PM UTC+12, gabbydott wrote:Yes, I think I know what you are aiming at. That's why I have been saying time and time again that the blank table theory on which you put or take away the food for development is an unuseful construct. Even if it has four legs, it still doesn't walk, so to speak. What I'd like to raise awareness for is that human conditioning starts before the little human lies on the table to be told and shown what is good and what is bad. In that sense I'd agree that there is something "natural" in morality.
On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 4:00 PM, pol.science kid wrote:
so when you say 'the human condition makes me human'... the fact of being human makes me human.?... and the conditions that be inform my morality... now taking this and putting it on the dude from my book... so it will absolve him of any amoral or immoral calls he takes... now i suppose this was the stand i was driving at... but i cant get something in my mind clear yet... i find somehow.. different the two worlds.. korea and the Eusa... although the eusa has been formed after the 'apocalypse'... see they can make themselves yet... their history of horror might inform their 'morality or ethics'.. but then their life and experience will add to it...their instincts will still have primacy(i have my questions about instincts still though)... i dont see no 'evil overlord'... now if some one starts form blank in a scenario(the korean camp)... where they are conditioned by reward and punishment..quite different form what we say our normal world gives.. where.. there are no bonds of sympathy... or empathy.. where causing the death of your kin is normal... i want to ask... and know.. will the insticts of this person know.. how would right and wrong be.. what would be 'natural'.. i cant help but think there is something 'natural' in morality..and 'good'..what would be 'good' for those born in camps... wouldnt this person be different from people who came to camp... maybe because they have a recollection of what life can be ... although even civil life in North korea is very much subject to control....this is turning out to be a long winded thing.... but i think you may get my jist....--
On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 5:42 PM, gabbydott wrote:
Like James says, it's a familiar story. I don't think one needs to have read all the books on the subject to be able to recognize a universal pattern. How I relate to the world is geared by the human condition that made me human and where I am drawing connections I am doing the conditioning myself. Pinpointing high and low morale on an evolutionary map seems dumb in this light. My being a lion makes perfect sense at one time but I expect you to treat me as a human nevertheless. That's how I would approach the fear of losing history, historical knowledge and the forgetting of the morals evolved thereof. Assessing independently of judgement is a much more pleasant state of mind, I understand. :)
On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 10:53 PM, pol.science kid wrote:
Uh.. since i didnt read the book ..i cant reeally say what the author intends... but why i brought it up was to think about the conditioning of human beings in a very different environment.. and what kinds of humans it effects... and i was wondering whether the moral idea of a human being is universal... i read the blog you gave the link to..thanks..its a very interesting book.. looking forward to read it... i guess its similar in the way that there is a loss of history i suppose in forming standards..sort of a bleak start... but since i have little idea of what comprised the world in the book..i feel unable to draw the connection to my problem... perhaps you could...and forgive my slow uptake but i couldnt exactly place the quote in my post... the man eats lion one... is it a paradox on mans high moral being?? ... i am not able to articulate correctly... sorry for giving this weird reply..it doesnt quite make sense.. perhaps it will make sense in the morning...--
On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 5:53 PM, pol.science kid < wrote:
oh ..um..i just re read my post... in my post.. the line with china and cold war... i meant to ask what was responsible for N korea turning that way.. sorry for eating the line.. was a bit tipsy... and ill get back to you on your reply soon...--
On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 4:49 PM, gabbydott < wrote:
Are you saying that the author of this book is suggesting that only moral order has turned human life upside down and left to right compared to how other worlds conceive of theirs? As in the quotation of the preface of another book dealing with this subject which is commented on here http://gerryco23.wordpress.com/2010/07/12/riddley-walker/ :Jesus said: Blessed the lion that the man will devour, and the lion will become man. And loathsome is the man that the lion will devour, and the lion will become man.I would argue that this is too flat an argumantation. Need to do something now. Sorry, that I can't expand on it now.
On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 8:21 PM, pol.science kid wrote:
I was reading and suddenly i remembered a horrifying detail... just recently this book has been out... Escape from camp14.. i forget the authors name.. i am wondering if i have already made a post on this.. have i...? ..if yes.. sorry for the repetition.. if no.. i just cant get it out of my head.. the account of this horrid life in North Korea... the Cold War.. Russia.. China... ? The Western World even...Its strange the people living under a fear regime for so long... brings images of 1984(book)... But my issue here is a different one... I didnt read the book.. cos i dont have it.. but i read about it... maybe you guys can google it and see.. i am too lazy to post a link here :)... But .this..guy who escapes.. he was born in the camp... and one thing he reveals is that he caused the death of his mother, and siblings... or both parents.. and some relatives.. to gain favor with the authorities... somethng like that is pretty shocking to us... but.. how would you judge this man.. maybe we dont have a right to judge him..but just hypothetically to have a discussion.. there is no morality here is there... now this man.. doesnt he seem to be comlpetely amoral... not immoral... maybe immoral to us... the review said in the book this man shows no compunction for what he did..i am just trying to concieve of these worlds...where... being human is comletely different... what informs these worlds... the people who comprise it... ?..what say you guys..