Re: Mind's Eye Freewill - A useful myth?

Will is a consequence of neural activity , one thought leads to another and so the chain goes on. Ultimately it is the brain , which is physical , that is responsible for all thoughts , consciousness and actions. Whether we like it or not, it is matter that is responsible for our psyche.

On Saturday, January 7, 2012 8:03:21 AM UTC+5:30, RP Singh wrote:

We are bound by very subtle ties and our ostensible freedom is wrapped
in bondage. If we lock up criminals we are bound and if we don't we
are still bound. Nature, within our will and that without, binds us.

On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 5:01 AM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
> Secular myths abound - largely because most of us are early-tuned to
> religious ones.  I suspect that the idea of social science is one of
> them.  Peter Winch wrote a small book on the topic in 1960 - I'd guess
> he was one of Wittgenstein's students.  We mythologise many secular
> elements of society - democracy is one, leadership another.  Science
> becomes one in those thinking it can answer all questions or (as in
> Dawkins) is the only important focus.  If we have no free will we
> should stop locking up criminals.  The question on free will is what
> life would entail without it and consequent responsibilities denied.
> Even Nietzsche insisted having seen the chaos we should make oursleves
> works of art.
>
> On Jan 6, 5:17 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I totally  agree with you Molly
>> On Jan 6, 2012 12:15 PM, "Molly" <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > There is more to life than the realm of cause and effect.  Many of us
>> > just prefer it there.
>>
>> > On Jan 5, 5:27 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > Free will is a reality..  the problem comes once you made your choice and
>> > > the effects of the choice ,,  these results appear that you have no
>> > > choice,,  you just mad it earlier.
>> > > Allan
>>
>> > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 10:33 PM, malcymo <malc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > Humanity has always, for some reason, felt the need to support his
>> > > > world view with a series of myths commonly termed beliefs in order to,
>> > > > in some way, justify its behaviour. We must not, however, believe that
>> > > > these myths are always spiritual or mystical in nature. Many are not.
>>
>> > > > The legitimacy of a myth depends on many features. Umberto Eco in his
>> > > > excellent tome 'Foucault's Pendulum' quietly draws our attention to
>> > > > the requirements needed for the creation of a robust myth and there is
>> > > > no doubt that within most religious and philosophical beliefs the
>> > > > required elements are found.
>>
>> > > > Secular myths, however, are somewhat harder to pin down. This may be
>> > > > because they are founded little more than intuition. They are
>> > > > therefore difficult to identify as myths in the first place. Also,
>> > > > such myths can often serve a very useful purpose.
>>
>> > > > Let us take as an example the idea of freewill. The idea is so
>> > > > embedded in our psych that most of us believe it to be a reality. Even
>> > > > so, an in depth study soon reveals the fragility of the idea. So
>> > > > fragile is it that philosophers have argued over the question of
>> > > > determinism v free will for generations; time which could have been
>> > > > more usefully employed on other ventures. Indeed some eminent
>> > > > philosophers believe that free will and determinism can sit
>> > > > legitimately together – the so called Such is the nature of a myth.
>>
>> > > > We can only suppose that such an idea must appear rational to us in
>> > > > order to give it legitimacy. After all, our ideas of virtuous
>> > > > behaviour, responsibility and justice are founded on the idea of free
>> > > > will; that we are responsible for our actions and must accept our
>> > > > responsibilities. Yet, there is no doubt that free will defies the
>> > > > tenets embodied in modern physics, the idea of cause and effect. It
>> > > > seems to be extremely difficult for us to accept that some things just
>> > > > are.
>>
>> > > > I am interested in this dilemma because if we eventually discover, if
>> > > > we have not already, that determinism is beyond dispute how should we
>> > > > react? How could we possibly recreate our society to live with such a
>> > > > 'truth'?
>>
>> > > --
>> > >  (
>> > >   )
>> > > |_D Allan
>>
>> > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

On Saturday, January 7, 2012 8:03:21 AM UTC+5:30, RP Singh wrote:

We are bound by very subtle ties and our ostensible freedom is wrapped
in bondage. If we lock up criminals we are bound and if we don't we
are still bound. Nature, within our will and that without, binds us.

On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 5:01 AM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
> Secular myths abound - largely because most of us are early-tuned to
> religious ones.  I suspect that the idea of social science is one of
> them.  Peter Winch wrote a small book on the topic in 1960 - I'd guess
> he was one of Wittgenstein's students.  We mythologise many secular
> elements of society - democracy is one, leadership another.  Science
> becomes one in those thinking it can answer all questions or (as in
> Dawkins) is the only important focus.  If we have no free will we
> should stop locking up criminals.  The question on free will is what
> life would entail without it and consequent responsibilities denied.
> Even Nietzsche insisted having seen the chaos we should make oursleves
> works of art.
>
> On Jan 6, 5:17 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I totally  agree with you Molly
>> On Jan 6, 2012 12:15 PM, "Molly" <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > There is more to life than the realm of cause and effect.  Many of us
>> > just prefer it there.
>>
>> > On Jan 5, 5:27 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > Free will is a reality..  the problem comes once you made your choice and
>> > > the effects of the choice ,,  these results appear that you have no
>> > > choice,,  you just mad it earlier.
>> > > Allan
>>
>> > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 10:33 PM, malcymo <malc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > Humanity has always, for some reason, felt the need to support his
>> > > > world view with a series of myths commonly termed beliefs in order to,
>> > > > in some way, justify its behaviour. We must not, however, believe that
>> > > > these myths are always spiritual or mystical in nature. Many are not.
>>
>> > > > The legitimacy of a myth depends on many features. Umberto Eco in his
>> > > > excellent tome 'Foucault's Pendulum' quietly draws our attention to
>> > > > the requirements needed for the creation of a robust myth and there is
>> > > > no doubt that within most religious and philosophical beliefs the
>> > > > required elements are found.
>>
>> > > > Secular myths, however, are somewhat harder to pin down. This may be
>> > > > because they are founded little more than intuition. They are
>> > > > therefore difficult to identify as myths in the first place. Also,
>> > > > such myths can often serve a very useful purpose.
>>
>> > > > Let us take as an example the idea of freewill. The idea is so
>> > > > embedded in our psych that most of us believe it to be a reality. Even
>> > > > so, an in depth study soon reveals the fragility of the idea. So
>> > > > fragile is it that philosophers have argued over the question of
>> > > > determinism v free will for generations; time which could have been
>> > > > more usefully employed on other ventures. Indeed some eminent
>> > > > philosophers believe that free will and determinism can sit
>> > > > legitimately together – the so called Such is the nature of a myth.
>>
>> > > > We can only suppose that such an idea must appear rational to us in
>> > > > order to give it legitimacy. After all, our ideas of virtuous
>> > > > behaviour, responsibility and justice are founded on the idea of free
>> > > > will; that we are responsible for our actions and must accept our
>> > > > responsibilities. Yet, there is no doubt that free will defies the
>> > > > tenets embodied in modern physics, the idea of cause and effect. It
>> > > > seems to be extremely difficult for us to accept that some things just
>> > > > are.
>>
>> > > > I am interested in this dilemma because if we eventually discover, if
>> > > > we have not already, that determinism is beyond dispute how should we
>> > > > react? How could we possibly recreate our society to live with such a
>> > > > 'truth'?
>>
>> > > --
>> > >  (
>> > >   )
>> > > |_D Allan
>>
>> > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.