Hey Tony,
Haha well yes and no, I disagree with this:
'One cannot allow individuals to cause unhappiness for everyone else,
or no one will be happy.'
The truth is that each individual acts as they will, if an individual
acts to cause unhappiness to others then what is there tha we can
actualy do to stop them?
I would say unless you are physcaly stronger and have the will to
physicaly stop them, then the answer is nothing at all. However as I
have said we must each bear the consqences of each of our acts or
words.
> We cannot prevent anyone from causing unhappiness. But would you have
> someone cause you unhappiness? I'm not sure which Golden Rule you
> mean, if so.
I have no power over the things others choose to do, but no I would
not like someone to cause me unhappiness, yet it still happens huh.
> Unhappiness happens. You can't make everyone happy. Everyone has the
> right to pursue happiness, as long as it doesn't rob osther of their
> happiness. So, we come down to a matter of relative pursuits, and to
> law, the purpose of which is to arbitrate between different parties'
> pursuits, when they can't compromise and maintain peace. In the
> Declaration O' Interdependence, we rate them in order: Life, Liberty,
> Pursuit of Happiness. So, murder rates above slavery as a crime, and
> slavery above general abuse and neglect. We are not to abuse each
> other, and so, when conflicts arise, someone has to decide between
> parties. That's how "good"and "evil" play out in society. But, those
> things are not ultimate good and evil, as they are determined by
> humans interpreting laws made by humans.
Indeed as you say all highly subjective, so let the ancient writers of
this declaration have their say. I would ask again though for you to
consider why it is that murder is generaly consideed evil?
Is it due to death? I can't see it, death being part of life, we kill
to live nd w are not alone in doing so, so I do not belive that death
itself is inherently evil. what is it then, is it untimely death? Is
the accidental death of a child considered that same as the murder of
a child, why, why not?
Or put it upwards a bit, the natrual death of an old man is considered
normal but his murder evil, why?
> You are not disagreeing with me. We have the right to cause ourselves
> to have our right to pursuit of happiness revoked, should we cause
> greater harm to the pursuit of others. When we are imprisoned, not
> only that right is revoked, but the right to freedom. And, in some
> places, if you curtail another's right to life, or freedom in some
> cases, then you may lose your right to life. Hey! Whatever makes you
> happy. You want to lose your rights, go ahead and do whatever you
> want.
Indeed this is what I mean by taking the consequences of your words or
actions.
> Oh. Perhaps you are not taking war for profit as a type of murder,
> premeditated killing of thousands or millions of people, in order to
> gain more of the power that has already corrupted your soul?
Perhaps I did not, see my post to Rigsy for an answer to that. But
still all the wars of all the times have not yet killed anywhere near
the number of people that the humble mossy has.
> As if you have any individual choice to begin with... You think you
> have freedom of choice? Wherein lies this freedom? You are a slave to
> circumstance.
I would argue that point until we are both fed up with each other,
given the chance, but for now let me just say that choice although
limited by numerous things still exists.
When you reply to this post as I'm sure you will, (or maybe you'll
choose not to!)
How will you reply, in what mannor, using what words? Are you saying
that you'll have no choice over this that something compels your
reply, and the words you'll use in it?
> What about simply making life miserable for others? Isn't there
> something wrong with that? You seem to agree with the prison system.
> Much to your surprise, I don't.
Again I think this touches upon what Allen says about 'Do no harm' It
is impossible you know to live a life which does no harm at all, I
applaud the trying though, and indeed is how I attempt to live my own
life.
We all know arse-ish people who seem to delight in the misery of
others, and how do we mostly deal with these people? Yep we seperate
ourselves from then, ohhh there is that individual choice again. If
it is not possible to seperate our selves from these destructive
people, rightly so, we have laws to help us make that choice a
reality.
Prison, is a strange one for me. I have actualy spent some time
thinking about the conecpt of prison over the years and what I can
say, is that at least in the UK we still work on the old Victorian
prison concept, that is that prision is meant to rehabilitate. I'm
unsure as to how the rest of the worlds prision system are supposed to
work, or what their concept is. I can also say that I belive the UK
general populous would like to see this old concept scrapped and see
the prision as a punishment conecept put in it's place.
My view is that it is clear that prison as rehabilitation has not
worked, so perhaps I must agree with the vast majority of my country
men and woman and say yes prision should be about punishment.
What exaclty is it about prison you don't agree with?
>
> > On Jul 14, 1:49 pm, Tony Orlow <t...@lightlink.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 12, 5:02 am, "leerevdoug...@googlemail.com" <l...@rdfmedia.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > Hey Tony,
>
> > > > Indeed and I would go further and say that good and evil are wholey
> > > > subjective.
>
> > > > Ben declares that murder is normaly counted as evil, but sometimes it
> > > > serves the greater good. I would ask you all to consider why exaclty
> > > > is it that the majority agree with this.
>
> > > > In short why is murder evil?
>
> > > Because we desire stability in society, and murder causes pain and
> > > discord, making societal progress hard for us all. Is the murderer
> > > evil? No, I think the murderer is sick, but society must hold the
> > > individual accountable for their actions in some sense, or it will
> > > collapse into chaos. One cannot allow individuals to cause unhappiness
> > > for everyone else, or no one will be happy.
>
> > > Peace,
>
> > > Tony
>
> > > > On Jul 11, 6:31 pm, Tony Orlow <t...@lightlink.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Hi Ben -
>
> > > > > A good question, and not one that I haven't spent much time
> > > > > considering. Here are my thoughts.
>
> > > > > One many levels, good and evil are subjective. When a cheetah kills a
> > > > > gazelle, that is good in the cheetah's eye and evil in the gazelle's.
> > > > > Indeed, our sense of what is good or bad rests first in personal
> > > > > pleasure and pain, and as we mature, is extended by association to
> > > > > include that which helps or hurts an object of attachment. For the
> > > > > rich, the current financial situation is good, and for the many poor
> > > > > it is evil. One's personal judgment is generally dependent on their
> > > > > perspective.
>
> > > > > One the other hand, if we assume some greater good, then actions which
> > > > > encourage it are good, and those that set it back or hurt it are bad
> > > > > or even evil. For instance, for those that believe in evolution and
> > > > > would rather be a trillion human cells able to think on our level
> > > > > rather than a pool of algae, evolution may be viewed as a universally
> > > > > good thing. Actions that encourage it are good and those that impede
> > > > > it are bad. Since evolution happens on all levels, from stars to
> > > > > physical organism to minds and memes, one may view this as a universal
> > > > > good. Of course, this depends on whether one personally believes in
> > > > > evolution, so again, even this objective good is subjectively
> > > > > estimated by the individual.
>
> > > > > Hope that was a valuable contribution. Have a nice day
>
> > > > > Tony
>
> > > > > On Jul 8, 11:16 pm, Ben <artistta...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > I do not believe that we can define good and evil without entering
> > > > > > into a philosophical conversation.
>
> > > > > > Good and evil are not absolute rules nor can there be a universal good
> > > > > > or a universal evil.
> > > > > > The concept of what is good and what is evil must be taught to us as a
> > > > > > child, because we are not born inherently good or evil.
>
> > > > > > To murder is bad. However the statement does not speak of a universal
> > > > > > good. Murder in so many cases has been used in good ways.
> > > > > > Euthanization has been used to end a suffering patients life. Abortion
> > > > > > has been used to prevent a child from being born when childbirth could
> > > > > > end a mothers life. To murder is bad in many cases but not all. The
> > > > > > extreme case of the word murder means to kill another human being
> > > > > > under conditions specifically covered in law. We can not define murder
> > > > > > without discussing the implications. There are many instances where
> > > > > > murder must be re-defined as a good not a bad.
>
> > > > > > A child is not born inherently good or evil. Human beings are unique
> > > > > > in the power of our brain. We are able to quickly associate good and
> > > > > > bad. These associations are learned from society, our elders and
> > > > > > peers. A child that is born with no contact from these influences will
> > > > > > associate good and evil with pain and suffering. A child with contact
> > > > > > from these influences will be able to conceptualize good and evil and
> > > > > > apply it to many different aspects of everyday life.
>
> > > > > > Finally, no universal good or evil will ever be agreed upon. There is
> > > > > > no absolute good or bad that we must all follow. One concept can
> > > > > > impede on another and we must accept those societies that have a
> > > > > > rational way of thinking. Each society must continue to evolve these
> > > > > > rules and change the commandments that were made centuries ago to fit
> > > > > > the present day reality of life. To murder is bad, however we live in
> > > > > > a civilized county in which many cases of murder are legal because
> > > > > > they are good. No one is born inherently good or evil and our society
> > > > > > must continue to define every aspect of what could be good or bad in
> > > > > > order to teach our children and they to develop their own, more
> > > > > > complete understanding to be taught to their children.
>
> > > > > > I challenge those of you who have read this to define an absolute good
> > > > > > and evil.
>
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Ben Kaylor- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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