came to be and will disintegrate but that is not the end of Creation ,
there have to be other universes in parallel and there is a continuity
in Creation-- I mean that no matter how many universes disintegrate
there are still other universes.God is incomplete without Creation and
so the concept of eternity is valid and a " fact ".
On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 5:32 PM, leerevdouglas@googlemail.com
<lee@rdfmedia.com> wrote:
> Hey OM.
>
> I guess what we are talking about are forces. I see that perhaps you
> do not count time a s force, or that perhaps our understanding of what
> time is must be constrained by the type of being we are.
>
> Yes I agree that the reality maynot be wholey how we percive it to be,
> as you know this has been my stance for a long while now.
>
> Back to forces though. We still don't know how gravity works, but we
> are sure that such a thing exists, we see it's effects all around us
> and can apply sciences to measure it. Like time we can see the
> effects of it. Now I'll not discount the idea that the effects of
> time may be down to something else entirly.
>
> The thing with imagining enternity or existing within it, is that it
> is just imaginagtion isn't it. I can also imagine that I'll a tall
> man with broad shoulders, but the reality of the situation is I am
> not.
>
> On May 4, 10:34 am, ornamentalmind <ornsmindseyes...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Lee, I sense that what we perceive as being 'external' - energy and
>> movement - is that. However, beyond this, our notions of what things
>> are...even the letters and associated words for SETI... only exist in
>> thought...no where else.
>>
>> As an aside, for those who may have missed it, SETI has been defunded.
>>
>> And, no, I didn't miss your caveat. I just disagree and suspect that
>> having thought about what one thinks is real, which does include the
>> concept of time, all one's lifetime...the notion of time becomes so
>> ingrained in one's world view that it is assumed to be an actual thing
>> rather than merely a thought.
>>
>> Yes, when one *thinks* about such things, they appear to be real. The
>> operative words here are "appears to be". As a mental exercise Lee,
>> I'll ask you to do your very best to imagine existing in
>> eternity...that which has no beginning and no end.
>>
>> Got the vision?.....from this perspective (the actual 'reality'), time
>> just is meaningless... especially if one also imagines no perceiver(s)
>> involved anywhere at all.
>>
>> On the other hand, I do know that there is life and that we, as human
>> beings do think and project our understandings upon the fabric of what
>> we project as being 'external' to ourselves. I don't deny this...it is
>> obvious that we do. It's just that what we project comes from mind and
>> not from whatever is actually there. What is actually there is not
>> what we perceives as time...it isn't color (except clear light as TTS
>> notes...something I've been contemplating for years now...something
>> that to the rational/thinking mind just can't be grasped)...it isn't
>> SETI...it isn't shape...it isn't anything that human senses perceive
>> and then apply some sort of belief about what is being
>> perceived...based upon previously attached beliefs. We don't in our
>> everyday mode perceive reality as it actually is. We do use
>> conventions mind agrees upon...for practicality's sake...its just that
>> in any ultimate sense, these conventions are nothing more than
>> that...they are not what is actually there. Remove the observer (and
>> associated senses) and what exists? Get it? No thinking...no
>> thoughts...no concepts...no words...no notions of reality....
>>
>> No, this isn't the conventional approach to things ontological nor
>> epistemological....yet, the exercise can be of enormous value in my
>> experience. No, I'm not attempting to impose a belief system upon you
>> or anyone else...in fact, it is almost like a diminution of belief if
>> anything at all!
>>
>> So, yes, how does one think about not thinking!!!
>>
>> Well...we have gone down this road quite often Lee...and you stop
>> after only a couple of paces which is fine.
>>
>> For me, I hunger to know beyond my own set of beliefs...which are
>> almost all things that I've attached to long ago and were formed based
>> upon words...and, not having created those words...there is little
>> that I actually know associated with these terms fed to me by others.
>>
>> To do this search, deconstruction [of beliefs] seems to be one method.
>> It isn't a road often traveled nor does it seem to be for everyone. So
>> be it!
>>
>> On May 4, 1:47 am, "leerevdoug...@googlemail.com" <l...@rdfmedia.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Hey Om,
>>
>> > Don't be shocked mate you might have missed this bit:
>>
>> > ' I must though disagree with you about concepts not existing without
>> > somebody to concive of them. Sure I could probably think of a concept
>> > or two where this is applicable, time though is not one of them.'
>>
>> > I like you exanples OM, but we know in a scientific way what colours
>> > are, and yes without the eyes to sense them, they still exist. The
>> > same with sound waves, yes of course with out the ears to hear and the
>> > brain to make sense of them, we can ask do they really exist, but the
>> > answer must be yes.
>>
>> > Think of it like this. SETI have been listening to radio waves from
>> > space for many years now, prior to SETI being setup, where these radio
>> > signals simply not there? Yes of course they where, we just didn't
>> > have the now how to listen to them.
>>
>> > There is a valid reason why we call somethings inventions and others
>> > discoverys.
>>
>> > I'm trying hard to Grok yoru meaning but you know that old fashioned
>> > reasoning keeps interfearing.
>>
>> > On May 4, 5:43 am, ornamentalmind <ornsmindseyes...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > "…Naaaa I do not think that is what you are saying. " – Lee
>>
>> > > Lee, in many ways, it is exactly what I'm saying.
>>
>> > > First, a few examples: Color – we perceive color(s)…and different
>> > > people perceive colors differently for one another too. And I'm not
>> > > even thinking about the color blind nor the totally blind here. With
>> > > no human brain, what we know as color just will not exist. There may
>> > > be some sort of vibration/movement in the universe but there will be
>> > > no color because it takes a human being to see them. Please don't add
>> > > other life forms to the equation, the principle is the same. No
>> > > perceiver, no color.
>>
>> > > That is only one thing. How about country music? Again, while there
>> > > may be vibrations/movement, without a person to 'translate' these
>> > > vibrations into what we call country music, there just isn't any such
>> > > thing. It is a concept (country music) and doesn't exist without mind.
>>
>> > > I really was shocked when you said that you disagreed with me about
>> > > concepts not existing without a perceiver/thinker! Just how could say
>> > > a concept of 'freedom' exist without mind? It just doesn't.
>>
>> > > Adding a little more, when you bring in 'labels', yes, all concepts/
>> > > words (labels) are subjective and without mind they just don't exist.
>> > > Even when there *is* mind things like say the earth can be
>> > > deconstructed into atoms and/or molecules etc…stuff that is not what
>> > > we think about as being the planet. I haven't gone into this very
>> > > deeply but hope you grok.
>>
>> > > On May 3, 9:36 am, "leerevdoug...@googlemail.com" <l...@rdfmedia.com>
>> > > wrote:
>>
>> > > > Hahahah OM old chap, you and I have been round and around on manny
>> > > > matters, as you say though this is just fine.
>>
>> > > > Yes of course the perception of time is a construct of human thought,
>> > > > it is as I say the way we measure decay.
>>
>> > > > Yes of course if we do not project time upon the eternity then time
>> > > > cease to have any meaning.
>>
>> > > > Yet all that we know is contained in the universe and it is clear that
>> > > > within this universe time exists independant of human thought.
>>
>> > > > All that is physical, all that is matter is subject to decay at a
>> > > > certian rate, this is time working.
>>
>> > > > Do you belive then that whatever is apart from the universe does not
>> > > > come under the juristriction of time? Are you saying that this thing
>> > > > we call God in some places is not subject to time, and that this is
>> > > > also true of anything not composed of matter but spirit instead? If
>> > > > so then obviously I agree.
>>
>> > > > I must though disagree with you about concepts not existing without
>> > > > somebody to concive of them. Sure I could probably think of a concept
>> > > > or two where this is applicable, time though isnot one of them.
>>
>> > > > Before the Earth cooled down enough for life to start here a period of
>> > > > time had passed, and although nobody was there to measure how much
>> > > > time had passed, we can now do just that.
>>
>> > > > Time then like light, exists independant of a mind to think of it. In
>> > > > fact are not all concepts our striving to understand what it is we
>> > > > sense around us? There must then be forces to sense for us tho strive
>> > > > to understand. Language is just labels we attach to things to enable
>> > > > us to communicate about them. Are you really saying these things
>> > > > would not exist if there where no mouths to utter the labels? Naaaa I
>> > > > do not think that is what you are saying.
>>
>> > > > On May 3, 2:09 pm, ornamentalmind <ornsmindseyes...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > > > Lee, we've gone round and round about 'no-time' on more than one
>> > > > > occasion and in different forums.
>>
>> > > > > So, I have little hope in making this notion acceptable to you which
>> > > > > is just fine.
>>
>> > > > > This can be approached on many levels. One is when one is talking
>> > > > > about how long things exist, yes, all things have a beginning and an
>> > > > > end. *Things*...such as planets, people, thoughts etc.
>>
>> > > > > Yet, if for just a moment we don't project this temporariness upon the
>> > > > > eternity which is obvious to many, when one is in eternity, time just
>> > > > > doesn't have any meaning at all. No beginning - No end.
>>
>> > > > > On a different level...at least a little different...you suggest that
>> > > > > time will exist w/o people. This too, on one level is correct;
>> > > > > however, I suggest that the very idea of time is found only within
>> > > > > human thinking. No humans, no concept of time. Yes, one can *guess*
>> > > > > that things will continue to come and go...but the very idea of 'time'
>> > > > > just doesn't exist without a mind. The same is true for all other
>> > > > > ideas: planet, chin, hairs (gray or black), time, universe, mirror,
>> > > > > science, years, numbers, people...even "Lee" is but a concept thought
>> > > > > about. No thinking, no "Lee" (or any of the other things listed).
>>
>> > > > > On May 3, 5:56 am, "leerevdoug...@googlemail.com" <l...@rdfmedia.com>
>> > > > > wrote:
>>
>> > > > > > That's along the lines of the questions asked myself before deciding
>> > > > > > on my stance.
>>
>> > > > > > Time would go by if there was nobody there to percive it doing so.
>> > > > > > Indeed science would have the time pass since our universe started as
>> > > > > > several billion years.
>>
>> > > > > > When I look in the mirror I can see that time has passed, in the new
>> > > > > > lines in my face, in the ever increasing grey hairs on my head and on
>>
>> ...
>>
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