susstaining istself by feeding off an unseen infanit energy sorce,
drawing it inwards. perhaps its not a force like electro magnatizam
but the resalt of this "feeding"
On May 4, 12:26 pm, ornamentalmind <ornsmindseyes...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "…We still don't know how gravity works, but we
> are sure that such a thing exists, we see it's effects all around us
> and can apply sciences to measure it. Like time we can see the
> effects of it. Now I'll not discount the idea that the effects of
> time may be down to something else entirly…" – Lee
>
> True that we don't know how gravity works. I'll add that we don't know
> what it is either…even though there is a predictable 'effect'. So, not
> knowing what a thing is nor how it works how do we know that it
> exists? Here I'll use the understanding of the term 'exists' as being
> something that the physical senses see/feel/hear etc. We don't see
> 'it' (gravity). We only see some predictable movement and that
> movement applies to about everything so in this sense it is not unique…
> let alone a unique 'thing'. Now, one need not agree with this of
> course; however, if not, it would appear congruent to me that one
> could say that god 'exists' in the same way. . . something that I
> suggest (in most cases) is but a belief…not any objective 'existence'.
>
> "…The thing with imagining enternity or existing within it, is that
> it
> is just imaginagtion isn't it…" - Lee
>
> Yes Lee, if one merely imagines it…it is. However, are you suggesting
> that we do not live in eternity? That eternity doesn't 'exist'? These
> are all parts of the examination I suggest.
>
> On May 4, 5:02 am, "leerevdoug...@googlemail.com" <l...@rdfmedia.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hey OM.
>
> > I guess what we are talking about are forces. I see that perhaps you
> > do not count time a s force, or that perhaps our understanding of what
> > time is must be constrained by the type of being we are.
>
> > Yes I agree that the reality maynot be wholey how we percive it to be,
> > as you know this has been my stance for a long while now.
>
> > Back to forces though. We still don't know how gravity works, but we
> > are sure that such a thing exists, we see it's effects all around us
> > and can apply sciences to measure it. Like time we can see the
> > effects of it. Now I'll not discount the idea that the effects of
> > time may be down to something else entirly.
>
> > The thing with imagining enternity or existing within it, is that it
> > is just imaginagtion isn't it. I can also imagine that I'll a tall
> > man with broad shoulders, but the reality of the situation is I am
> > not.
>
> > On May 4, 10:34 am, ornamentalmind <ornsmindseyes...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Lee, I sense that what we perceive as being 'external' - energy and
> > > movement - is that. However, beyond this, our notions of what things
> > > are...even the letters and associated words for SETI... only exist in
> > > thought...no where else.
>
> > > As an aside, for those who may have missed it, SETI has been defunded.
>
> > > And, no, I didn't miss your caveat. I just disagree and suspect that
> > > having thought about what one thinks is real, which does include the
> > > concept of time, all one's lifetime...the notion of time becomes so
> > > ingrained in one's world view that it is assumed to be an actual thing
> > > rather than merely a thought.
>
> > > Yes, when one *thinks* about such things, they appear to be real. The
> > > operative words here are "appears to be". As a mental exercise Lee,
> > > I'll ask you to do your very best to imagine existing in
> > > eternity...that which has no beginning and no end.
>
> > > Got the vision?.....from this perspective (the actual 'reality'), time
> > > just is meaningless... especially if one also imagines no perceiver(s)
> > > involved anywhere at all.
>
> > > On the other hand, I do know that there is life and that we, as human
> > > beings do think and project our understandings upon the fabric of what
> > > we project as being 'external' to ourselves. I don't deny this...it is
> > > obvious that we do. It's just that what we project comes from mind and
> > > not from whatever is actually there. What is actually there is not
> > > what we perceives as time...it isn't color (except clear light as TTS
> > > notes...something I've been contemplating for years now...something
> > > that to the rational/thinking mind just can't be grasped)...it isn't
> > > SETI...it isn't shape...it isn't anything that human senses perceive
> > > and then apply some sort of belief about what is being
> > > perceived...based upon previously attached beliefs. We don't in our
> > > everyday mode perceive reality as it actually is. We do use
> > > conventions mind agrees upon...for practicality's sake...its just that
> > > in any ultimate sense, these conventions are nothing more than
> > > that...they are not what is actually there. Remove the observer (and
> > > associated senses) and what exists? Get it? No thinking...no
> > > thoughts...no concepts...no words...no notions of reality....
>
> > > No, this isn't the conventional approach to things ontological nor
> > > epistemological....yet, the exercise can be of enormous value in my
> > > experience. No, I'm not attempting to impose a belief system upon you
> > > or anyone else...in fact, it is almost like a diminution of belief if
> > > anything at all!
>
> > > So, yes, how does one think about not thinking!!!
>
> > > Well...we have gone down this road quite often Lee...and you stop
> > > after only a couple of paces which is fine.
>
> > > For me, I hunger to know beyond my own set of beliefs...which are
> > > almost all things that I've attached to long ago and were formed based
> > > upon words...and, not having created those words...there is little
> > > that I actually know associated with these terms fed to me by others.
>
> > > To do this search, deconstruction [of beliefs] seems to be one method.
> > > It isn't a road often traveled nor does it seem to be for everyone. So
> > > be it!
>
> > > On May 4, 1:47 am, "leerevdoug...@googlemail.com" <l...@rdfmedia.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > Hey Om,
>
> > > > Don't be shocked mate you might have missed this bit:
>
> > > > ' I must though disagree with you about concepts not existing without
> > > > somebody to concive of them. Sure I could probably think of a concept
> > > > or two where this is applicable, time though is not one of them.'
>
> > > > I like you exanples OM, but we know in a scientific way what colours
> > > > are, and yes without the eyes to sense them, they still exist. The
> > > > same with sound waves, yes of course with out the ears to hear and the
> > > > brain to make sense of them, we can ask do they really exist, but the
> > > > answer must be yes.
>
> > > > Think of it like this. SETI have been listening to radio waves from
> > > > space for many years now, prior to SETI being setup, where these radio
> > > > signals simply not there? Yes of course they where, we just didn't
> > > > have the now how to listen to them.
>
> > > > There is a valid reason why we call somethings inventions and others
> > > > discoverys.
>
> > > > I'm trying hard to Grok yoru meaning but you know that old fashioned
> > > > reasoning keeps interfearing.
>
> > > > On May 4, 5:43 am, ornamentalmind <ornsmindseyes...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > "…Naaaa I do not think that is what you are saying. " – Lee
>
> > > > > Lee, in many ways, it is exactly what I'm saying.
>
> > > > > First, a few examples: Color – we perceive color(s)…and different
> > > > > people perceive colors differently for one another too. And I'm not
> > > > > even thinking about the color blind nor the totally blind here. With
> > > > > no human brain, what we know as color just will not exist. There may
> > > > > be some sort of vibration/movement in the universe but there will be
> > > > > no color because it takes a human being to see them. Please don't add
> > > > > other life forms to the equation, the principle is the same. No
> > > > > perceiver, no color.
>
> > > > > That is only one thing. How about country music? Again, while there
> > > > > may be vibrations/movement, without a person to 'translate' these
> > > > > vibrations into what we call country music, there just isn't any such
> > > > > thing. It is a concept (country music) and doesn't exist without mind.
>
> > > > > I really was shocked when you said that you disagreed with me about
> > > > > concepts not existing without a perceiver/thinker! Just how could say
> > > > > a concept of 'freedom' exist without mind? It just doesn't.
>
> > > > > Adding a little more, when you bring in 'labels', yes, all concepts/
> > > > > words (labels) are subjective and without mind they just don't exist.
> > > > > Even when there *is* mind things like say the earth can be
> > > > > deconstructed into atoms and/or molecules etc…stuff that is not what
> > > > > we think about as being the planet. I haven't gone into this very
> > > > > deeply but hope you grok.
>
> > > > > On May 3, 9:36 am, "leerevdoug...@googlemail.com" <l...@rdfmedia.com>
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > Hahahah OM old chap, you and I have been round and around on manny
> > > > > > matters, as you say though this is just fine.
>
> > > > > > Yes of course the perception of time is a construct of human thought,
> > > > > > it is as I say the way we measure decay.
>
> > > > > > Yes of course if we do not project time upon the eternity then time
> > > > > > cease to have any meaning.
>
> > > > > > Yet all that we know is contained in the universe and it is clear that
> > > > > > within this universe time exists independant of human thought.
>
> > > > > > All that is physical, all that is matter is subject to decay at a
> > > > > > certian rate, this is time working.
>
> > > > > > Do you belive then that whatever is apart from the universe does not
> > > > > > come under the juristriction of time? Are you saying that this thing
> > > > > > we call God in some places is not subject to time, and that this is
> > > > > > also true of anything not composed of matter but spirit instead? If
> > > > > > so then obviously I agree.
>
> ...
>
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