movement - is that. However, beyond this, our notions of what things
are...even the letters and associated words for SETI... only exist in
thought...no where else.
As an aside, for those who may have missed it, SETI has been defunded.
And, no, I didn't miss your caveat. I just disagree and suspect that
having thought about what one thinks is real, which does include the
concept of time, all one's lifetime...the notion of time becomes so
ingrained in one's world view that it is assumed to be an actual thing
rather than merely a thought.
Yes, when one *thinks* about such things, they appear to be real. The
operative words here are "appears to be". As a mental exercise Lee,
I'll ask you to do your very best to imagine existing in
eternity...that which has no beginning and no end.
Got the vision?.....from this perspective (the actual 'reality'), time
just is meaningless... especially if one also imagines no perceiver(s)
involved anywhere at all.
On the other hand, I do know that there is life and that we, as human
beings do think and project our understandings upon the fabric of what
we project as being 'external' to ourselves. I don't deny this...it is
obvious that we do. It's just that what we project comes from mind and
not from whatever is actually there. What is actually there is not
what we perceives as time...it isn't color (except clear light as TTS
notes...something I've been contemplating for years now...something
that to the rational/thinking mind just can't be grasped)...it isn't
SETI...it isn't shape...it isn't anything that human senses perceive
and then apply some sort of belief about what is being
perceived...based upon previously attached beliefs. We don't in our
everyday mode perceive reality as it actually is. We do use
conventions mind agrees upon...for practicality's sake...its just that
in any ultimate sense, these conventions are nothing more than
that...they are not what is actually there. Remove the observer (and
associated senses) and what exists? Get it? No thinking...no
thoughts...no concepts...no words...no notions of reality....
No, this isn't the conventional approach to things ontological nor
epistemological....yet, the exercise can be of enormous value in my
experience. No, I'm not attempting to impose a belief system upon you
or anyone else...in fact, it is almost like a diminution of belief if
anything at all!
So, yes, how does one think about not thinking!!!
Well...we have gone down this road quite often Lee...and you stop
after only a couple of paces which is fine.
For me, I hunger to know beyond my own set of beliefs...which are
almost all things that I've attached to long ago and were formed based
upon words...and, not having created those words...there is little
that I actually know associated with these terms fed to me by others.
To do this search, deconstruction [of beliefs] seems to be one method.
It isn't a road often traveled nor does it seem to be for everyone. So
be it!
On May 4, 1:47 am, "leerevdoug...@googlemail.com" <l...@rdfmedia.com>
wrote:
> Hey Om,
>
> Don't be shocked mate you might have missed this bit:
>
> ' I must though disagree with you about concepts not existing without
> somebody to concive of them. Sure I could probably think of a concept
> or two where this is applicable, time though is not one of them.'
>
> I like you exanples OM, but we know in a scientific way what colours
> are, and yes without the eyes to sense them, they still exist. The
> same with sound waves, yes of course with out the ears to hear and the
> brain to make sense of them, we can ask do they really exist, but the
> answer must be yes.
>
> Think of it like this. SETI have been listening to radio waves from
> space for many years now, prior to SETI being setup, where these radio
> signals simply not there? Yes of course they where, we just didn't
> have the now how to listen to them.
>
> There is a valid reason why we call somethings inventions and others
> discoverys.
>
> I'm trying hard to Grok yoru meaning but you know that old fashioned
> reasoning keeps interfearing.
>
> On May 4, 5:43 am, ornamentalmind <ornsmindseyes...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "…Naaaa I do not think that is what you are saying. " – Lee
>
> > Lee, in many ways, it is exactly what I'm saying.
>
> > First, a few examples: Color – we perceive color(s)…and different
> > people perceive colors differently for one another too. And I'm not
> > even thinking about the color blind nor the totally blind here. With
> > no human brain, what we know as color just will not exist. There may
> > be some sort of vibration/movement in the universe but there will be
> > no color because it takes a human being to see them. Please don't add
> > other life forms to the equation, the principle is the same. No
> > perceiver, no color.
>
> > That is only one thing. How about country music? Again, while there
> > may be vibrations/movement, without a person to 'translate' these
> > vibrations into what we call country music, there just isn't any such
> > thing. It is a concept (country music) and doesn't exist without mind.
>
> > I really was shocked when you said that you disagreed with me about
> > concepts not existing without a perceiver/thinker! Just how could say
> > a concept of 'freedom' exist without mind? It just doesn't.
>
> > Adding a little more, when you bring in 'labels', yes, all concepts/
> > words (labels) are subjective and without mind they just don't exist.
> > Even when there *is* mind things like say the earth can be
> > deconstructed into atoms and/or molecules etc…stuff that is not what
> > we think about as being the planet. I haven't gone into this very
> > deeply but hope you grok.
>
> > On May 3, 9:36 am, "leerevdoug...@googlemail.com" <l...@rdfmedia.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > Hahahah OM old chap, you and I have been round and around on manny
> > > matters, as you say though this is just fine.
>
> > > Yes of course the perception of time is a construct of human thought,
> > > it is as I say the way we measure decay.
>
> > > Yes of course if we do not project time upon the eternity then time
> > > cease to have any meaning.
>
> > > Yet all that we know is contained in the universe and it is clear that
> > > within this universe time exists independant of human thought.
>
> > > All that is physical, all that is matter is subject to decay at a
> > > certian rate, this is time working.
>
> > > Do you belive then that whatever is apart from the universe does not
> > > come under the juristriction of time? Are you saying that this thing
> > > we call God in some places is not subject to time, and that this is
> > > also true of anything not composed of matter but spirit instead? If
> > > so then obviously I agree.
>
> > > I must though disagree with you about concepts not existing without
> > > somebody to concive of them. Sure I could probably think of a concept
> > > or two where this is applicable, time though isnot one of them.
>
> > > Before the Earth cooled down enough for life to start here a period of
> > > time had passed, and although nobody was there to measure how much
> > > time had passed, we can now do just that.
>
> > > Time then like light, exists independant of a mind to think of it. In
> > > fact are not all concepts our striving to understand what it is we
> > > sense around us? There must then be forces to sense for us tho strive
> > > to understand. Language is just labels we attach to things to enable
> > > us to communicate about them. Are you really saying these things
> > > would not exist if there where no mouths to utter the labels? Naaaa I
> > > do not think that is what you are saying.
>
> > > On May 3, 2:09 pm, ornamentalmind <ornsmindseyes...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Lee, we've gone round and round about 'no-time' on more than one
> > > > occasion and in different forums.
>
> > > > So, I have little hope in making this notion acceptable to you which
> > > > is just fine.
>
> > > > This can be approached on many levels. One is when one is talking
> > > > about how long things exist, yes, all things have a beginning and an
> > > > end. *Things*...such as planets, people, thoughts etc.
>
> > > > Yet, if for just a moment we don't project this temporariness upon the
> > > > eternity which is obvious to many, when one is in eternity, time just
> > > > doesn't have any meaning at all. No beginning - No end.
>
> > > > On a different level...at least a little different...you suggest that
> > > > time will exist w/o people. This too, on one level is correct;
> > > > however, I suggest that the very idea of time is found only within
> > > > human thinking. No humans, no concept of time. Yes, one can *guess*
> > > > that things will continue to come and go...but the very idea of 'time'
> > > > just doesn't exist without a mind. The same is true for all other
> > > > ideas: planet, chin, hairs (gray or black), time, universe, mirror,
> > > > science, years, numbers, people...even "Lee" is but a concept thought
> > > > about. No thinking, no "Lee" (or any of the other things listed).
>
> > > > On May 3, 5:56 am, "leerevdoug...@googlemail.com" <l...@rdfmedia.com>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > That's along the lines of the questions asked myself before deciding
> > > > > on my stance.
>
> > > > > Time would go by if there was nobody there to percive it doing so.
> > > > > Indeed science would have the time pass since our universe started as
> > > > > several billion years.
>
> > > > > When I look in the mirror I can see that time has passed, in the new
> > > > > lines in my face, in the ever increasing grey hairs on my head and on
> > > > > my chin.
>
> > > > > I don't understand this 'there is no time' though OM, care to explian
> > > > > that one?
>
> > > > > On May 3, 1:40 pm, ornamentalmind <ornsmindseyes...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > TTS, I suggest that this isn't an either/or issue. Time as we perceive
> > > > > > it can be both. While in any ultimate sense, there is no time most of
> > > > > > us do wear watches and/or use clocks. It is a matter of level of
> > > > > > perception and we are able to perceive from more than one level at a
> > > > > > time.
>
> > > > > > On May 3, 12:55 am, the taoist shaman <bryan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > is time real or an illusion created by change ? if indeed time is an
> > > > > > > illusion created by change shurely this must have meaning, some
> > > > > > > ramification on , at the least, the way we preceive ourselves and our
> > > > > > > universe to which we are a part . if so what is the effect of this
> > > > > > > altered preception?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
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