Re: Mind's Eye Re: Matter

They seem like opposites, and everyone says so, but when I look I find
them sharing the same truth. Sometimes I can even accept that, and it
makes little sense to differentiate, it is confusing actually. Words
just confuse the heck out of me..

On 7/13/2012 6:17 AM, gabbydott wrote:
> Coming back to the I-matter, I am a huge fan of the God concept, for it
> confronts me with my little I, my laws, my systems, my machines. I have
> no desire to change this. But if nature is doing that changing for me,
> only my will to not have this changed would set me free. Which means
> I'll always lose this freedom race in the end. Finding the right pace is
> important, I find.
>
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 10:46 AM, RP Singh <1234rp@gmail.com
> <mailto:1234rp@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Whatever is happening in this universe is happening according to laws
> because it is through laws alone that God can control the universe. If
> human freedom is real it would be above God's laws or you may say that
> you are acting without God's sanction and if so there would be no
> control of nature and there would be mayhem everywhere.
> Another point is that matter obeys laws , which is true of the human
> biological system also , and if you leave the awareness part aside we
> are nothing but matter and thus subject to laws of biology ,
> psychology , etc.
> Again, we desire to change our nature but that will comes from inside
> us and if we persevere that quality is innate in us and if we
> cultivate it , it is a desire prompted by our system. In fact , we are
> not above our system but part of it.We can do that only which our
> system allows us , whether it be due to genetic or learned factors ,.
>
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Lee Douglas
> <leerevdouglas@gmail.com <mailto:leerevdouglas@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > Again though RP. We are capable of changing our nature. Now I
> suspect that
> > you will claim that such change was not of our choosing but
> simply the gogs
> > moving. No I can't get with that, it is human conciousness that
> you ignore
> > in all of this.
> >
> > I ask again, by what mechanism does the mechanichs of the universe
> > invalidate human freedom of choice?
> >
> > Rig's commnet on training animals and rearing children is a good
> one, as it
> > shows that creatures with conciousness have the capacity to
> learn. If we
> > can learn about a thing then we have the power to manipulate that
> thing.
> > Are you then claiming that such manipulation has to occour that both
> > learning and usage of that which is learnt are part of your gogs,
> that by
> > learning a thing you have to then use that learning?
> >
> >
> > On Thursday, 12 July 2012 19:22:37 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
> >>
> >> Rigs , your conscious choice to do anything is according to your
> >> nature-- it is your nature to express your disagreement whereas mine
> >> might be to keep quiet and shrug it off. Whatever the choice it
> is the
> >> human system which acts and whether anyone likes it or not
> individuals
> >> are predisposed to act and react in a certain manner . We are
> >> genetically predisposed and change if any is due to the effect
> of the
> >> environment on us. The environment is also not in our hands and we
> >> are pushed into it by our parents or to choose according to our
> liking
> >> from the options available.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 11:11 PM, rigsy03 <rigsy03@yahoo.com
> <mailto:rigsy03@yahoo.com>> wrote:
> >> > I disagree. It is a conscious choice to behave in a certain
> manner-
> >> > opposed to instincts. The choice is made to conform to values-
> whether
> >> > family, religion, social group, etc. While it is true we are a
> speck,
> >> > so to speak, we do have enormous influence within and upon the
> circle
> >> > we are in- during and even after our lifetime. To think all is
> pre-
> >> > ordained doesn't add up to much of a god for one thing, nor to
> human
> >> > intelligence, for another. Part of the problem with our modern
> era is
> >> > to shift responsibilty to let ourselves off the hook; but another
> >> > factor is the breakdown of the family structure often due to
> economic
> >> > forces as much as frivolous choices. Values can be changed-
> let's say
> >> > in a family unit- but it usually takes a few generations- the same
> >> > holds for nations/cultures. That's what I referred to about
> backward,
> >> > violent nations and types- you just can't effect meaningful
> instant
> >> > change- either by force/war or throwing vast sums of money
> after the
> >> > problems, maladjustments. And protest movements are not a new
> idea,
> >> > either- some worked, others did not.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Jul 12, 12:08 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com
> <mailto:123...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >> >> You control your anger and as far as you and others are
> concerned you
> >> >> are free, but in reality it is the biological system that is
> you that
> >> >> is doing everything according to its nature. So in the
> context of this
> >> >> universe- machine you are just a cog following a definite course.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Lee Douglas
> <leerevdoug...@gmail.com <mailto:leerevdoug...@gmail.com>>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > Your reply makes no sense RP.
> >> >>
> >> >> > How does it follow that human free will would bring about the
> >> >> > collaspe of
> >> >> > the whole 'machine'?
> >> >>
> >> >> > Are you saying that we have no conciouse control over
> breathing, that
> >> >> > we
> >> >> > cannot choose to hold our breathes and in turn choose to start
> >> >> > breathing
> >> >> > again?
> >> >>
> >> >> > I get you mostly, but I simply cannot get past the seemig
> >> >> > contradictions. I
> >> >> > can control my anger, I have that control yet I do not
> because this
> >> >> > control
> >> >> > is just how my physical brain works? No mate it can't be both,
> >> >> > either I
> >> >> > have can control my anger or I cannot control anything.
> Either my
> >> >> > control
> >> >> > is real or it is an illusion, which is it?
> >> >>
> >> >> > The other thing that I have to talk about is the mechanisim
> by which
> >> >> > a brain
> >> >> > that must work in line with certian laws of physics somehow
> negates
> >> >> > human
> >> >> > freedom of choice? How does it do that, I mean how, exactly?
> >> >>
> >> >> > I think you are buying too much into this universe as a machine
> >> >> > thing. There
> >> >> > exists here creatures with conciousness, and I think that
> it a game
> >> >> > changer.
> >> >> > I think that when a brain that is cabaple of expressing
> conciouse
> >> >> > thought
> >> >> > arises, then right there is the gremlin in the machine. We
> can see
> >> >> > that
> >> >> > humanity has changed the face of the planet for it's own
> ends. It is
> >> >> > our
> >> >> > conciousness, a conciousness that has arisen out th natural
> world,
> >> >> > bound by
> >> >> > nautural laws, yet still capable of changing all around it.
> >> >>
> >> >> > Think of it this way.
> >> >>
> >> >> > Electricity is simply the movements of electrons, but ahhhh the
> >> >> > things we
> >> >> > can now do with it, and the things that are imagined in the
> future.
> >> >> > Electricity like all things of mater are as you say bound
> by laws,
> >> >> > and so
> >> >> > one would imagine that we can already tell what we may or
> may not be
> >> >> > able to
> >> >> > do with it, are you one of those, do you imagine that we
> know whats
> >> >> > in store
> >> >> > for electricity ion the future, or can you invisage other
> things?
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Thursday, 12 July 2012 13:53:49 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >> The will to change yourself comes from within you , but
> those who
> >> >> >> are
> >> >> >> ignorant of the intricacies of nature think that they have
> brought
> >> >> >> about this change. When you breathe you think that you are
> freely
> >> >> >> doing so but the fact is that it is your body which is
> demanding it.
> >> >> >> Whether you are controlling your anger or not is in your
> hands but
> >> >> >> your decisions arise from the working of your brain which
> is matter
> >> >> >> and as such governed by neurological or biological
> principles. If
> >> >> >> freedom was real the whole machinery of the universe would
> have
> >> >> >> collapsed and there would have been mayhem everywhere ,
> but that is
> >> >> >> not the case and wherever you look you find harmony
> within. Whatever
> >> >> >> a
> >> >> >> man does it is his nature expressing itself , where I
> would have
> >> >> >> beaten up a child mercilessly you would not have because
> you are
> >> >> >> not
> >> >> >> free , if you think you are go ahead and shoot up your
> enemy , but
> >> >> >> of
> >> >> >> course you would not because your reason would stop you
> where mine
> >> >> >> would not. If you think that is freedom , then you are
> really the
> >> >> >> master of yourself.
> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Lee Douglas
> >> >> >> <leerevdoug...@gmail.com <mailto:leerevdoug...@gmail.com>>
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> > My youngest son, like my good self suffers form anger
> issues. We
> >> >> >> > have
> >> >> >> > had a
> >> >> >> > fine time in his 16 years dealing with this, teaching him to
> >> >> >> > control
> >> >> >> > this
> >> >> >> > anger, urging him to learn when it is right and justfied
> to let it
> >> >> >> > out,
> >> >> >> > and
> >> >> >> > when doing so brings only harm to him and those around him.
> >> >>
> >> >> >> > RP's stance would render all of this meaningless. That
> it is not
> >> >> >> > his
> >> >> >> > choice
> >> >> >> > but Gods, when he looses control of his anger, indeed
> that such an
> >> >> >> > expression as 'Control of his anger' becomes
> meaningless, there is
> >> >> >> > no
> >> >> >> > control.
> >> >>
> >> >> >> > I don't like this stance, and I certianly do not agree
> with it.
> >> >> >> > There
> >> >> >> > are
> >> >> >> > many reasons, but perhaps the biggest is merely
> differances in
> >> >> >> > inturpretating this message. God asks that you give up
> your head,
> >> >> >> > that
> >> >> >> > you
> >> >> >> > surrender your will to the will of the One instead. God
> asks and
> >> >> >> > then
> >> >> >> > if
> >> >> >> > you are so inclinede you do as asked, but you certianly
> have the
> >> >> >> > freedom
> >> >> >> > of
> >> >> >> > choice in this matter, ss in every other matter.
> >> >>
> >> >> >> > It is easy to say, I have no will but the will of the
> One moves
> >> >> >> > through
> >> >> >> > me.
> >> >> >> > It is a cop out though isn't it? It declares that 'I'
> have no
> >> >> >> > choice,
> >> >> >> > that
> >> >> >> > the things I do I have not done. Can you imagine a
> World where
> >> >> >> > such
> >> >> >> > thinking was parramount?
> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Ohhh nooo, I do not like this line of reasonig it does
> not conform
> >> >> >> > to
> >> >> >> > the
> >> >> >> > idea of a loving God and it makes us all guiltless of
> the worst of
> >> >> >> > human
> >> >> >> > behaviour.
> >> >>
> >> >> >> > On Sunday, 8 July 2012 16:57:23 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> The ' I ' is a projection of the mind , which is
> matter. Matter
> >> >> >> >> is
> >> >> >> >> under
> >> >> >> >> the control of various laws and can never be free. Many
> of the
> >> >> >> >> constraints
> >> >> >> >> to our 'will' are visible and accepted by all. It takes
> a deep
> >> >> >> >> understanding
> >> >> >> >> to the know the bondage behind the obviously ' free
> will ' .It is
> >> >> >> >> so
> >> >> >> >> easy to
> >> >> >> >> accept the obvious , but to know the subtle ties that
> bind us is
> >> >> >> >> true
> >> >> >> >> understanding.- Hide quoted text -
> >> >>
> >> >> - Show quoted text -
>
>