Language can be corrupted- that is what is confusing. But I am
grateful for this gift anyway, else I would be howling at the
moon! :-)
Forgive me for once defending banks. Mea culpa! Really, the news of
the world is so sad even the BBC cannot make music of it.
Back into another heat wave tomorrow and I have an abcessed molar and
am struggling with nausea due to the antibiotics but have an appt.
next week with the dentist who will "fix" it. Forsooth!!! Such is the
petty drama sometimes. That's where my old faith comes in plus the
kindness that one finds in ordinary life. I still thank or implore God
daily- often for the most mundane reasons and I do believe I was
assigned a tough Guardian Angel given my life history.
There is a concept in theology called "right reason" as rational
arguments and justifications can be false is spite of sounding clever.
On Jul 13, 7:22 pm, James <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> They seem like opposites, and everyone says so, but when I look I find
> them sharing the same truth. Sometimes I can even accept that, and it
> makes little sense to differentiate, it is confusing actually. Words
> just confuse the heck out of me..
>
> On 7/13/2012 6:17 AM, gabbydott wrote:
>
>
>
> > Coming back to the I-matter, I am a huge fan of the God concept, for it
> > confronts me with my little I, my laws, my systems, my machines. I have
> > no desire to change this. But if nature is doing that changing for me,
> > only my will to not have this changed would set me free. Which means
> > I'll always lose this freedom race in the end. Finding the right pace is
> > important, I find.
>
> > On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 10:46 AM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com
> > <mailto:123...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> > Whatever is happening in this universe is happening according to laws
> > because it is through laws alone that God can control the universe. If
> > human freedom is real it would be above God's laws or you may say that
> > you are acting without God's sanction and if so there would be no
> > control of nature and there would be mayhem everywhere.
> > Another point is that matter obeys laws , which is true of the human
> > biological system also , and if you leave the awareness part aside we
> > are nothing but matter and thus subject to laws of biology ,
> > psychology , etc.
> > Again, we desire to change our nature but that will comes from inside
> > us and if we persevere that quality is innate in us and if we
> > cultivate it , it is a desire prompted by our system. In fact , we are
> > not above our system but part of it.We can do that only which our
> > system allows us , whether it be due to genetic or learned factors ,.
>
> > On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Lee Douglas
> > <leerevdoug...@gmail.com <mailto:leerevdoug...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > Again though RP. We are capable of changing our nature. Now I
> > suspect that
> > > you will claim that such change was not of our choosing but
> > simply the gogs
> > > moving. No I can't get with that, it is human conciousness that
> > you ignore
> > > in all of this.
>
> > > I ask again, by what mechanism does the mechanichs of the universe
> > > invalidate human freedom of choice?
>
> > > Rig's commnet on training animals and rearing children is a good
> > one, as it
> > > shows that creatures with conciousness have the capacity to
> > learn. If we
> > > can learn about a thing then we have the power to manipulate that
> > thing.
> > > Are you then claiming that such manipulation has to occour that both
> > > learning and usage of that which is learnt are part of your gogs,
> > that by
> > > learning a thing you have to then use that learning?
>
> > > On Thursday, 12 July 2012 19:22:37 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>
> > >> Rigs , your conscious choice to do anything is according to your
> > >> nature-- it is your nature to express your disagreement whereas mine
> > >> might be to keep quiet and shrug it off. Whatever the choice it
> > is the
> > >> human system which acts and whether anyone likes it or not
> > individuals
> > >> are predisposed to act and react in a certain manner . We are
> > >> genetically predisposed and change if any is due to the effect
> > of the
> > >> environment on us. The environment is also not in our hands and we
> > >> are pushed into it by our parents or to choose according to our
> > liking
> > >> from the options available.
>
> > >> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 11:11 PM, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com
> > <mailto:rigs...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
> > >> > I disagree. It is a conscious choice to behave in a certain
> > manner-
> > >> > opposed to instincts. The choice is made to conform to values-
> > whether
> > >> > family, religion, social group, etc. While it is true we are a
> > speck,
> > >> > so to speak, we do have enormous influence within and upon the
> > circle
> > >> > we are in- during and even after our lifetime. To think all is
> > pre-
> > >> > ordained doesn't add up to much of a god for one thing, nor to
> > human
> > >> > intelligence, for another. Part of the problem with our modern
> > era is
> > >> > to shift responsibilty to let ourselves off the hook; but another
> > >> > factor is the breakdown of the family structure often due to
> > economic
> > >> > forces as much as frivolous choices. Values can be changed-
> > let's say
> > >> > in a family unit- but it usually takes a few generations- the same
> > >> > holds for nations/cultures. That's what I referred to about
> > backward,
> > >> > violent nations and types- you just can't effect meaningful
> > instant
> > >> > change- either by force/war or throwing vast sums of money
> > after the
> > >> > problems, maladjustments. And protest movements are not a new
> > idea,
> > >> > either- some worked, others did not.
>
> > >> > On Jul 12, 12:08 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com
> > <mailto:123...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >> >> You control your anger and as far as you and others are
> > concerned you
> > >> >> are free, but in reality it is the biological system that is
> > you that
> > >> >> is doing everything according to its nature. So in the
> > context of this
> > >> >> universe- machine you are just a cog following a definite course.
>
> > >> >> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Lee Douglas
> > <leerevdoug...@gmail.com <mailto:leerevdoug...@gmail.com>>
> > >> >> wrote:
> > >> >> > Your reply makes no sense RP.
>
> > >> >> > How does it follow that human free will would bring about the
> > >> >> > collaspe of
> > >> >> > the whole 'machine'?
>
> > >> >> > Are you saying that we have no conciouse control over
> > breathing, that
> > >> >> > we
> > >> >> > cannot choose to hold our breathes and in turn choose to start
> > >> >> > breathing
> > >> >> > again?
>
> > >> >> > I get you mostly, but I simply cannot get past the seemig
> > >> >> > contradictions. I
> > >> >> > can control my anger, I have that control yet I do not
> > because this
> > >> >> > control
> > >> >> > is just how my physical brain works? No mate it can't be both,
> > >> >> > either I
> > >> >> > have can control my anger or I cannot control anything.
> > Either my
> > >> >> > control
> > >> >> > is real or it is an illusion, which is it?
>
> > >> >> > The other thing that I have to talk about is the mechanisim
> > by which
> > >> >> > a brain
> > >> >> > that must work in line with certian laws of physics somehow
> > negates
> > >> >> > human
> > >> >> > freedom of choice? How does it do that, I mean how, exactly?
>
> > >> >> > I think you are buying too much into this universe as a machine
> > >> >> > thing. There
> > >> >> > exists here creatures with conciousness, and I think that
> > it a game
> > >> >> > changer.
> > >> >> > I think that when a brain that is cabaple of expressing
> > conciouse
> > >> >> > thought
> > >> >> > arises, then right there is the gremlin in the machine. We
> > can see
> > >> >> > that
> > >> >> > humanity has changed the face of the planet for it's own
> > ends. It is
> > >> >> > our
> > >> >> > conciousness, a conciousness that has arisen out th natural
> > world,
> > >> >> > bound by
> > >> >> > nautural laws, yet still capable of changing all around it.
>
> > >> >> > Think of it this way.
>
> > >> >> > Electricity is simply the movements of electrons, but ahhhh the
> > >> >> > things we
> > >> >> > can now do with it, and the things that are imagined in the
> > future.
> > >> >> > Electricity like all things of mater are as you say bound
> > by laws,
> > >> >> > and so
> > >> >> > one would imagine that we can already tell what we may or
> > may not be
> > >> >> > able to
> > >> >> > do with it, are you one of those, do you imagine that we
> > know whats
> > >> >> > in store
> > >> >> > for electricity ion the future, or can you invisage other
> > things?
>
> > >> >> > On Thursday, 12 July 2012 13:53:49 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>
> > >> >> >> The will to change yourself comes from within you , but
> > those who
> > >> >> >> are
> > >> >> >> ignorant of the intricacies of nature think that they have
> > brought
> > >> >> >> about this change. When you breathe you think that you are
> > freely
> > >> >> >> doing so but the fact is that it is your body which is
> > demanding it.
> > >> >> >> Whether you are controlling your anger or not is in your
> > hands but
> > >> >> >> your decisions arise from the working of your brain which
> > is matter
> > >> >> >> and as such governed by neurological or biological
> > principles. If
> > >> >> >> freedom was real the whole machinery of the universe would
> > have
> > >> >> >> collapsed and there would have been mayhem everywhere ,
> > but that is
> > >> >> >> not the case and wherever you look you find harmony
> > within. Whatever
> > >> >> >> a
> > >> >> >> man does it is his nature expressing itself , where I
> > would have
> > >> >> >> beaten up a child mercilessly you would not have because
> > you are
> > >> >> >> not
> > >> >> >> free , if you think you are go ahead and shoot up your
> > enemy , but
> > >> >> >> of
> > >> >> >> course you
>
> ...
>
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Saturday, July 14, 2012
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