Re: Mind's Eye Freewill - A useful myth?

My humor is epic (tragedy).

On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 6:10 AM, rigsy03 <rigsy03@yahoo.com> wrote:
> To each their own.
>
> On Mar 15, 4:03 pm, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Awash with nettles and kettles alike! Aye, -isms are second to -asms
>> as those who can "optimimize" do while those who can't are
>> "optimistic". :p Or perhaps mind over meta won't matter if we put the
>> carriage before the cargo. I agree on the -isms mostly Rigsy, whenever
>> I pick one up it's like the flu, perhaps a little druglike at first
>> then "blah", head feels like it's full of syrup. Unfortunately people
>> seem to stick with it like an STD!
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 8:35 AM, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > Free will was a nettle to the Papacy as it countered their reliance on
>> > Original Sin as a basis for their doctrines and practices and it has
>> > the same problems with other "isms".
>>
>> > On Mar 9, 11:04 am, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Will is a consequence of neural activity , one thought leads to another and
>> >> so the chain goes on. Ultimately it is the brain , which is physical , that
>> >> is responsible for all thoughts , consciousness and actions. Whether we
>> >> like it or not, it is matter that is responsible for our psyche.
>>
>> >> On Saturday, January 7, 2012 8:03:21 AM UTC+5:30, RP Singh wrote:
>>
>> >> > We are bound by very subtle ties and our ostensible freedom is wrapped
>> >> > in bondage. If we lock up criminals we are bound and if we don't we
>> >> > are still bound. Nature, within our will and that without, binds us.
>>
>> >> > On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 5:01 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > > Secular myths abound - largely because most of us are early-tuned to
>> >> > > religious ones.  I suspect that the idea of social science is one of
>> >> > > them.  Peter Winch wrote a small book on the topic in 1960 - I'd guess
>> >> > > he was one of Wittgenstein's students.  We mythologise many secular
>> >> > > elements of society - democracy is one, leadership another.  Science
>> >> > > becomes one in those thinking it can answer all questions or (as in
>> >> > > Dawkins) is the only important focus.  If we have no free will we
>> >> > > should stop locking up criminals.  The question on free will is what
>> >> > > life would entail without it and consequent responsibilities denied.
>> >> > > Even Nietzsche insisted having seen the chaos we should make oursleves
>> >> > > works of art.
>>
>> >> > > On Jan 6, 5:17 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > >> I totally  agree with you Molly
>> >> > >> On Jan 6, 2012 12:15 PM, "Molly" <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> > >> > There is more to life than the realm of cause and effect.  Many of us
>> >> > >> > just prefer it there.
>>
>> >> > >> > On Jan 5, 5:27 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > >> > > Free will is a reality..  the problem comes once you made your
>> >> > choice and
>> >> > >> > > the effects of the choice ,,  these results appear that you have no
>> >> > >> > > choice,,  you just mad it earlier.
>> >> > >> > > Allan
>>
>> >> > >> > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 10:33 PM, malcymo <malc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > >> > > > Humanity has always, for some reason, felt the need to support his
>> >> > >> > > > world view with a series of myths commonly termed beliefs in
>> >> > order to,
>> >> > >> > > > in some way, justify its behaviour. We must not, however, believe
>> >> > that
>> >> > >> > > > these myths are always spiritual or mystical in nature. Many are
>> >> > not.
>>
>> >> > >> > > > The legitimacy of a myth depends on many features. Umberto Eco in
>> >> > his
>> >> > >> > > > excellent tome 'Foucault's Pendulum' quietly draws our attention
>> >> > to
>> >> > >> > > > the requirements needed for the creation of a robust myth and
>> >> > there is
>> >> > >> > > > no doubt that within most religious and philosophical beliefs the
>> >> > >> > > > required elements are found.
>>
>> >> > >> > > > Secular myths, however, are somewhat harder to pin down. This may
>> >> > be
>> >> > >> > > > because they are founded little more than intuition. They are
>> >> > >> > > > therefore difficult to identify as myths in the first place. Also,
>> >> > >> > > > such myths can often serve a very useful purpose.
>>
>> >> > >> > > > Let us take as an example the idea of freewill. The idea is so
>> >> > >> > > > embedded in our psych that most of us believe it to be a reality.
>> >> > Even
>> >> > >> > > > so, an in depth study soon reveals the fragility of the idea. So
>> >> > >> > > > fragile is it that philosophers have argued over the question of
>> >> > >> > > > determinism v free will for generations; time which could have
>> >> > been
>> >> > >> > > > more usefully employed on other ventures. Indeed some eminent
>> >> > >> > > > philosophers believe that free will and determinism can sit
>> >> > >> > > > legitimately together – the so called Such is the nature of a
>> >> > myth.
>>
>> >> > >> > > > We can only suppose that such an idea must appear rational to us
>> >> > in
>> >> > >> > > > order to give it legitimacy. After all, our ideas of virtuous
>> >> > >> > > > behaviour, responsibility and justice are founded on the idea of
>> >> > free
>> >> > >> > > > will; that we are responsible for our actions and must accept our
>> >> > >> > > > responsibilities. Yet, there is no doubt that free will defies the
>> >> > >> > > > tenets embodied in modern physics, the idea of cause and effect.
>> >> > It
>> >> > >> > > > seems to be extremely difficult for us to accept that some things
>> >> > just
>> >> > >> > > > are.
>>
>> >> > >> > > > I am interested in this dilemma because if we eventually
>> >> > discover, if
>> >> > >> > > > we have not already, that determinism is beyond dispute how
>> >> > should we
>> >> > >> > > > react? How could we possibly recreate our society to live with
>> >> > such a
>> >> > >> > > > 'truth'?
>>
>> >> > >> > > --
>> >> > >> > >  (
>> >> > >> > >   )
>> >> > >> > > |_D Allan
>>
>> >> > >> > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>>
>> >> On Saturday, January 7, 2012 8:03:21 AM UTC+5:30, RP Singh wrote:
>>
>> >> > We are bound by very subtle ties and our ostensible freedom is wrapped
>> >> > in bondage. If we lock up criminals we are bound and if we don't we
>> >> > are still bound. Nature, within our will and that without, binds us.
>>
>> >> > On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 5:01 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > > Secular myths abound - largely because most of us are early-tuned to
>> >> > > religious ones.  I suspect that the idea of social science is one of
>> >> > > them.  Peter Winch wrote a small book on the topic in 1960 - I'd guess
>> >> > > he was one of Wittgenstein's students.  We mythologise many secular
>> >> > > elements of society - democracy is one, leadership another.  Science
>> >> > > becomes one in those thinking it can answer all questions or (as in
>> >> > > Dawkins) is the only important focus.  If we have no free will we
>> >> > > should stop locking up criminals.  The question on free will is what
>> >> > > life would entail without it and consequent responsibilities denied.
>> >> > > Even Nietzsche insisted having seen the chaos we should make oursleves
>> >> > > works of art.
>>
>> >> > > On Jan 6, 5:17 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > >> I totally  agree with you Molly
>> >> > >> On Jan 6, 2012 12:15 PM, "Molly" <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> > >> > There is more to life than the realm of cause and effect.  Many of us
>> >> > >> > just prefer it there.
>>
>> >> > >> > On Jan 5, 5:27 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > >> > > Free will is a reality..  the problem comes once you made your
>> >> > choice and
>> >> > >> > > the effects of the choice ,,  these results appear that you have no
>> >> > >> > > choice,,  you just mad it earlier.
>> >> > >> > > Allan
>>
>> >> > >> > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 10:33 PM, malcymo <malc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > >> > > > Humanity has always, for some reason, felt the need to support his
>> >> > >> > > > world view with a series of myths commonly termed beliefs in
>> >> > order to,
>> >> > >> > > > in some way, justify its behaviour. We must not, however, believe
>> >> > that
>> >> > >> > > > these myths are always spiritual or mystical in nature. Many are
>> >> > not.
>>
>> >> > >> > > > The legitimacy of a myth depends on many features. Umberto Eco in
>> >> > his
>> >> > >> > > > excellent tome 'Foucault's Pendulum' quietly draws our attention
>> >> > to
>> >> > >> > > > the requirements needed for the creation of a robust myth and
>> >> > there is
>> >> > >> > > > no doubt that within most religious and philosophical beliefs the
>> >> > >> > > > required elements are found.
>>
>> >> > >> > > > Secular myths, however, are somewhat harder to pin down. This may
>> >> > be
>> >> > >> > > > because they are founded little more than intuition. They are
>> >> > >> > > > therefore difficult to identify as myths in the first place. Also,
>> >> > >> > > > such myths can often serve a very useful purpose.
>>
>> >> > >> > > > Let us take as an example the idea of freewill. The idea is so
>> >> > >> > > > embedded in our psych that most of us believe it to be a reality.
>> >> > Even
>> >> > >> > > > so, an in depth study soon reveals the fragility of the idea. So
>> >> > >> > > > fragile is it that philosophers have argued over the question of
>> >> > >> > > > determinism v free will for generations; time which could have
>> >> > been
>> >> > >> > > > more usefully employed on other ventures. Indeed some eminent
>> >> > >> > > > philosophers believe that free will and determinism can sit
>> >> > >> > > > legitimately together – the so called Such is the nature of a
>> >> > myth.
>>
>> >> > >> > > > We can only suppose that such an idea must appear rational to us
>> >> > in
>> >> > >> > > > order to give it legitimacy. After all, our ideas of virtuous
>> >> > >> > > > behaviour, responsibility and justice are founded on the idea of
>> >> > free
>> >> > >> > > > will; that we are responsible for our actions and must accept our
>> >> > >> > > > responsibilities. Yet, there is no doubt that free will defies the
>> >> > >> > > > tenets embodied in modern physics, the idea of cause and effect.
>> >> > It
>> >> > >> > > > seems to be extremely difficult for us to accept that some things
>> >> > just
>> >> > >> > > > are.
>>
>> >> > >> > > > I am interested in this dilemma because if we eventually
>> >> > discover, if
>> >> > >> > > > we have not already, that determinism is beyond dispute
>>
>> ...
>>
>> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -