Re: Mind's Eye Re: Matter

Whether I close my hand or open it , it is my choice , I can do
either. Is my brain making me exercise my choice or am I directing my
brain to follow my choice - the question is with what am I directing
my brain ? With the brain itself ? O.K. I am sending the command to
the brain and it follows the command , but what about the command
itself ? How do I decide what to command ? How do I reach any decision
? To my understanding decisions are reached by a part of the brain
itself which then sends the command. If these functions are being done
by the brain where does it leave the consciousness ? An agent in the
hands of the brain ! The brain is matter and follows material
signals!!!

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 1:34 PM, Lee Douglas <leerevdouglas@gmail.com> wrote:
> All well and good and you would think that line of reasoning is the
> clincher, alas though, I do not find it so.
>
> Yes yes, of course our brains are dependant upon the biochemical processes
> for it to work, this still does not deny freedom of choice though.
> Otherwise how is it that things like CBT work? We are all aware of
> Cognative Disonance and can take steps to remedy it's effects upon our
> belifes, by what mechanism does this work? Again I think you undersell
> Conciousness, what it means for species with it, and it's affects up on us.
>
> On Friday, 13 July 2012 18:26:24 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>>
>> Bio-chemical processes precede conscious thought and action and since
>> these processes precede the will it is bound by them and not free.
>> When the brain becomes dysfunctional ,thoughts and behavior also is
>> affected which goes to corroborate the notion of bondage. In major
>> psychosis chemicals change the thought processes and actions of the
>> patient which again goes to support my stance of human bondage.
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Lee Douglas <leerevdouglas@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Again though RP. We are capable of changing our nature. Now I suspect
>> > that
>> > you will claim that such change was not of our choosing but simply the
>> > gogs
>> > moving. No I can't get with that, it is human conciousness that you
>> > ignore
>> > in all of this.
>> >
>> > I ask again, by what mechanism does the mechanichs of the universe
>> > invalidate human freedom of choice?
>> >
>> > Rig's commnet on training animals and rearing children is a good one, as
>> > it
>> > shows that creatures with conciousness have the capacity to learn. If
>> > we
>> > can learn about a thing then we have the power to manipulate that thing.
>> > Are you then claiming that such manipulation has to occour that both
>> > learning and usage of that which is learnt are part of your gogs, that
>> > by
>> > learning a thing you have to then use that learning?
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thursday, 12 July 2012 19:22:37 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Rigs , your conscious choice to do anything is according to your
>> >> nature-- it is your nature to express your disagreement whereas mine
>> >> might be to keep quiet and shrug it off. Whatever the choice it is the
>> >> human system which acts and whether anyone likes it or not individuals
>> >> are predisposed to act and react in a certain manner . We are
>> >> genetically predisposed and change if any is due to the effect of the
>> >> environment on us. The environment is also not in our hands and we
>> >> are pushed into it by our parents or to choose according to our liking
>> >> from the options available.
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 11:11 PM, rigsy03 <rigsy03@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> > I disagree. It is a conscious choice to behave in a certain manner-
>> >> > opposed to instincts. The choice is made to conform to values-
>> >> > whether
>> >> > family, religion, social group, etc. While it is true we are a speck,
>> >> > so to speak, we do have enormous influence within and upon the circle
>> >> > we are in- during and even after our lifetime. To think all is pre-
>> >> > ordained doesn't add up to much of a god for one thing, nor to human
>> >> > intelligence, for another. Part of the problem with our modern era is
>> >> > to shift responsibilty to let ourselves off the hook; but another
>> >> > factor is the breakdown of the family structure often due to economic
>> >> > forces as much as frivolous choices. Values can be changed- let's say
>> >> > in a family unit- but it usually takes a few generations- the same
>> >> > holds for nations/cultures. That's what I referred to about backward,
>> >> > violent nations and types- you just can't effect meaningful instant
>> >> > change- either by force/war or throwing vast sums of money after the
>> >> > problems, maladjustments. And protest movements are not a new idea,
>> >> > either- some worked, others did not.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Jul 12, 12:08 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> You control your anger and as far as you and others are concerned
>> >> >> you
>> >> >> are free, but in reality it is the biological system that is you
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> is doing everything according to its nature. So in the context of
>> >> >> this
>> >> >> universe- machine you are just a cog following a definite course.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Lee Douglas
>> >> >> <leerevdoug...@gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > Your reply makes no sense RP.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > How does it follow that human free will would bring about the
>> >> >> > collaspe of
>> >> >> > the whole 'machine'?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Are you saying that we have no conciouse control over breathing,
>> >> >> > that
>> >> >> > we
>> >> >> > cannot choose to hold our breathes and in turn choose to start
>> >> >> > breathing
>> >> >> > again?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > I get you mostly, but I simply cannot get past the seemig
>> >> >> > contradictions. I
>> >> >> > can control my anger, I have that control yet I do not because
>> >> >> > this
>> >> >> > control
>> >> >> > is just how my physical brain works? No mate it can't be both,
>> >> >> > either I
>> >> >> > have can control my anger or I cannot control anything. Either my
>> >> >> > control
>> >> >> > is real or it is an illusion, which is it?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > The other thing that I have to talk about is the mechanisim by
>> >> >> > which
>> >> >> > a brain
>> >> >> > that must work in line with certian laws of physics somehow
>> >> >> > negates
>> >> >> > human
>> >> >> > freedom of choice? How does it do that, I mean how, exactly?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > I think you are buying too much into this universe as a machine
>> >> >> > thing. There
>> >> >> > exists here creatures with conciousness, and I think that it a
>> >> >> > game
>> >> >> > changer.
>> >> >> > I think that when a brain that is cabaple of expressing conciouse
>> >> >> > thought
>> >> >> > arises, then right there is the gremlin in the machine. We can
>> >> >> > see
>> >> >> > that
>> >> >> > humanity has changed the face of the planet for it's own ends. It
>> >> >> > is
>> >> >> > our
>> >> >> > conciousness, a conciousness that has arisen out th natural world,
>> >> >> > bound by
>> >> >> > nautural laws, yet still capable of changing all around it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Think of it this way.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Electricity is simply the movements of electrons, but ahhhh the
>> >> >> > things we
>> >> >> > can now do with it, and the things that are imagined in the
>> >> >> > future.
>> >> >> > Electricity like all things of mater are as you say bound by laws,
>> >> >> > and so
>> >> >> > one would imagine that we can already tell what we may or may not
>> >> >> > be
>> >> >> > able to
>> >> >> > do with it, are you one of those, do you imagine that we know
>> >> >> > whats
>> >> >> > in store
>> >> >> > for electricity ion the future, or can you invisage other things?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Thursday, 12 July 2012 13:53:49 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> The will to change yourself comes from within you , but those who
>> >> >> >> are
>> >> >> >> ignorant of the intricacies of nature think that they have
>> >> >> >> brought
>> >> >> >> about this change. When you breathe you think that you are
>> >> >> >> freely
>> >> >> >> doing so but the fact is that it is your body which is demanding
>> >> >> >> it.
>> >> >> >> Whether you are controlling your anger or not is in your hands
>> >> >> >> but
>> >> >> >> your decisions arise from the working of your brain which is
>> >> >> >> matter
>> >> >> >> and as such governed by neurological or biological principles. If
>> >> >> >> freedom was real the whole machinery of the universe would have
>> >> >> >> collapsed and there would have been mayhem everywhere , but that
>> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> not the case and wherever you look you find harmony within.
>> >> >> >> Whatever
>> >> >> >> a
>> >> >> >> man does it is his nature expressing itself , where I would have
>> >> >> >> beaten up a child mercilessly you would not have because you are
>> >> >> >> not
>> >> >> >> free , if you think you are go ahead and shoot up your enemy ,
>> >> >> >> but
>> >> >> >> of
>> >> >> >> course you would not because your reason would stop you where
>> >> >> >> mine
>> >> >> >> would not. If you think that is freedom , then you are really the
>> >> >> >> master of yourself.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Lee Douglas
>> >> >> >> <leerevdoug...@gmail.com>
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >> > My youngest son, like my good self suffers form anger issues.
>> >> >> >> > We
>> >> >> >> > have
>> >> >> >> > had a
>> >> >> >> > fine time in his 16 years dealing with this, teaching him to
>> >> >> >> > control
>> >> >> >> > this
>> >> >> >> > anger, urging him to learn when it is right and justfied to let
>> >> >> >> > it
>> >> >> >> > out,
>> >> >> >> > and
>> >> >> >> > when doing so brings only harm to him and those around him.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > RP's stance would render all of this meaningless. That it is
>> >> >> >> > not
>> >> >> >> > his
>> >> >> >> > choice
>> >> >> >> > but Gods, when he looses control of his anger, indeed that such
>> >> >> >> > an
>> >> >> >> > expression as 'Control of his anger' becomes meaningless, there
>> >> >> >> > is
>> >> >> >> > no
>> >> >> >> > control.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > I don't like this stance, and I certianly do not agree with it.
>> >> >> >> > There
>> >> >> >> > are
>> >> >> >> > many reasons, but perhaps the biggest is merely differances in
>> >> >> >> > inturpretating this message. God asks that you give up your
>> >> >> >> > head,
>> >> >> >> > that
>> >> >> >> > you
>> >> >> >> > surrender your will to the will of the One instead. God asks
>> >> >> >> > and
>> >> >> >> > then
>> >> >> >> > if
>> >> >> >> > you are so inclinede you do as asked, but you certianly have
>> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> > freedom
>> >> >> >> > of
>> >> >> >> > choice in this matter, ss in every other matter.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > It is easy to say, I have no will but the will of the One moves
>> >> >> >> > through
>> >> >> >> > me.
>> >> >> >> > It is a cop out though isn't it? It declares that 'I' have no
>> >> >> >> > choice,
>> >> >> >> > that
>> >> >> >> > the things I do I have not done. Can you imagine a World where
>> >> >> >> > such
>> >> >> >> > thinking was parramount?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Ohhh nooo, I do not like this line of reasonig it does not
>> >> >> >> > conform
>> >> >> >> > to
>> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> > idea of a loving God and it makes us all guiltless of the worst
>> >> >> >> > of
>> >> >> >> > human
>> >> >> >> > behaviour.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > On Sunday, 8 July 2012 16:57:23 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> The ' I ' is a projection of the mind , which is matter.
>> >> >> >> >> Matter
>> >> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> >> under
>> >> >> >> >> the control of various laws and can never be free. Many of the
>> >> >> >> >> constraints
>> >> >> >> >> to our 'will' are visible and accepted by all. It takes a deep
>> >> >> >> >> understanding
>> >> >> >> >> to the know the bondage behind the obviously ' free will ' .It
>> >> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> >> so
>> >> >> >> >> easy to
>> >> >> >> >> accept the obvious , but to know the subtle ties that bind us
>> >> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> >> true
>> >> >> >> >> understanding.- Hide quoted text -
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - Show quoted text -