Re: Mind's Eye Re: Matter

Instead of saying that consciousness is the self is it not justifiable
to say that consciousness is the attribute of a living organism and
when the organism dies consciousness vanishes as if into thin air.
Consciousness is awareness of something and not an entity in itself.

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 8:12 PM, Lee Douglas <leerevdouglas@gmail.com> wrote:
> Again all well and good. There is nothing there that I would deny.
> Although none of this shows me, prooves to me that your stance is correct.
> All things run as they must and are bound by their very being. An apple
> tree can only bear apple fruit, and not the sweet fruit of the plumb.
>
> Conciouseness though it may arise out of the material and hence find it's
> workings bound by the limits of that material, it is still a thing that is
> greater than the sum of it's parts.
>
> You ask:
>
> ' Is my brain making me exercise my choice or am I directing my brain to
> follow my choice'
>
> As if there is just one area of conciouness? We know about the subconcious,
> and the ego, and all sorts of other bits and bobs that we have labeld. We
> know that we can either conciously stop and then start breathing, and we als
> know that if just left alone and not thougth about, breathing continues.
>
> It is clear then that we can use a part of our brain on another part of our
> brain.
>
> If you wish to change something about your charector, you only have be
> strong willed enought to make it so. In reality, as you say, our emotions
> our self controls have much to do with the levels of certian chemicals ion
> the brain, but you can if you are feeling down start to feel happy, if you
> try. What is this.... a willed change in the chemical makeup of the brain
> using the brain to effect the change!
>
> Yes the brain is machine, and yes the seat of self is held in the barin, but
> self is very much in charge. Who's Brain? My Brain!
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, 16 July 2012 14:19:45 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>>
>> Whether I close my hand or open it , it is my choice , I can do
>> either. Is my brain making me exercise my choice or am I directing my
>> brain to follow my choice - the question is with what am I directing
>> my brain ? With the brain itself ? O.K. I am sending the command to
>> the brain and it follows the command , but what about the command
>> itself ? How do I decide what to command ? How do I reach any decision
>> ? To my understanding decisions are reached by a part of the brain
>> itself which then sends the command. If these functions are being done
>> by the brain where does it leave the consciousness ? An agent in the
>> hands of the brain ! The brain is matter and follows material
>> signals!!!
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 1:34 PM, Lee Douglas <leerevdouglas@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > All well and good and you would think that line of reasoning is the
>> > clincher, alas though, I do not find it so.
>> >
>> > Yes yes, of course our brains are dependant upon the biochemical
>> > processes
>> > for it to work, this still does not deny freedom of choice though.
>> > Otherwise how is it that things like CBT work? We are all aware of
>> > Cognative Disonance and can take steps to remedy it's effects upon our
>> > belifes, by what mechanism does this work? Again I think you undersell
>> > Conciousness, what it means for species with it, and it's affects up on
>> > us.
>> >
>> > On Friday, 13 July 2012 18:26:24 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Bio-chemical processes precede conscious thought and action and since
>> >> these processes precede the will it is bound by them and not free.
>> >> When the brain becomes dysfunctional ,thoughts and behavior also is
>> >> affected which goes to corroborate the notion of bondage. In major
>> >> psychosis chemicals change the thought processes and actions of the
>> >> patient which again goes to support my stance of human bondage.
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Lee Douglas <leerevdouglas@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Again though RP. We are capable of changing our nature. Now I
>> >> > suspect
>> >> > that
>> >> > you will claim that such change was not of our choosing but simply
>> >> > the
>> >> > gogs
>> >> > moving. No I can't get with that, it is human conciousness that you
>> >> > ignore
>> >> > in all of this.
>> >> >
>> >> > I ask again, by what mechanism does the mechanichs of the universe
>> >> > invalidate human freedom of choice?
>> >> >
>> >> > Rig's commnet on training animals and rearing children is a good one,
>> >> > as
>> >> > it
>> >> > shows that creatures with conciousness have the capacity to learn.
>> >> > If
>> >> > we
>> >> > can learn about a thing then we have the power to manipulate that
>> >> > thing.
>> >> > Are you then claiming that such manipulation has to occour that both
>> >> > learning and usage of that which is learnt are part of your gogs,
>> >> > that
>> >> > by
>> >> > learning a thing you have to then use that learning?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Thursday, 12 July 2012 19:22:37 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Rigs , your conscious choice to do anything is according to your
>> >> >> nature-- it is your nature to express your disagreement whereas mine
>> >> >> might be to keep quiet and shrug it off. Whatever the choice it is
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> human system which acts and whether anyone likes it or not
>> >> >> individuals
>> >> >> are predisposed to act and react in a certain manner . We are
>> >> >> genetically predisposed and change if any is due to the effect of
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> environment on us. The environment is also not in our hands and we
>> >> >> are pushed into it by our parents or to choose according to our
>> >> >> liking
>> >> >> from the options available.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 11:11 PM, rigsy03 <rigsy03@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > I disagree. It is a conscious choice to behave in a certain
>> >> >> > manner-
>> >> >> > opposed to instincts. The choice is made to conform to values-
>> >> >> > whether
>> >> >> > family, religion, social group, etc. While it is true we are a
>> >> >> > speck,
>> >> >> > so to speak, we do have enormous influence within and upon the
>> >> >> > circle
>> >> >> > we are in- during and even after our lifetime. To think all is
>> >> >> > pre-
>> >> >> > ordained doesn't add up to much of a god for one thing, nor to
>> >> >> > human
>> >> >> > intelligence, for another. Part of the problem with our modern era
>> >> >> > is
>> >> >> > to shift responsibilty to let ourselves off the hook; but another
>> >> >> > factor is the breakdown of the family structure often due to
>> >> >> > economic
>> >> >> > forces as much as frivolous choices. Values can be changed- let's
>> >> >> > say
>> >> >> > in a family unit- but it usually takes a few generations- the same
>> >> >> > holds for nations/cultures. That's what I referred to about
>> >> >> > backward,
>> >> >> > violent nations and types- you just can't effect meaningful
>> >> >> > instant
>> >> >> > change- either by force/war or throwing vast sums of money after
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > problems, maladjustments. And protest movements are not a new
>> >> >> > idea,
>> >> >> > either- some worked, others did not.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On Jul 12, 12:08 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> You control your anger and as far as you and others are concerned
>> >> >> >> you
>> >> >> >> are free, but in reality it is the biological system that is you
>> >> >> >> that
>> >> >> >> is doing everything according to its nature. So in the context of
>> >> >> >> this
>> >> >> >> universe- machine you are just a cog following a definite course.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Lee Douglas
>> >> >> >> <leerevdoug...@gmail.com>
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >> > Your reply makes no sense RP.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > How does it follow that human free will would bring about the
>> >> >> >> > collaspe of
>> >> >> >> > the whole 'machine'?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Are you saying that we have no conciouse control over
>> >> >> >> > breathing,
>> >> >> >> > that
>> >> >> >> > we
>> >> >> >> > cannot choose to hold our breathes and in turn choose to start
>> >> >> >> > breathing
>> >> >> >> > again?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > I get you mostly, but I simply cannot get past the seemig
>> >> >> >> > contradictions. I
>> >> >> >> > can control my anger, I have that control yet I do not because
>> >> >> >> > this
>> >> >> >> > control
>> >> >> >> > is just how my physical brain works? No mate it can't be both,
>> >> >> >> > either I
>> >> >> >> > have can control my anger or I cannot control anything. Either
>> >> >> >> > my
>> >> >> >> > control
>> >> >> >> > is real or it is an illusion, which is it?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > The other thing that I have to talk about is the mechanisim by
>> >> >> >> > which
>> >> >> >> > a brain
>> >> >> >> > that must work in line with certian laws of physics somehow
>> >> >> >> > negates
>> >> >> >> > human
>> >> >> >> > freedom of choice? How does it do that, I mean how, exactly?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > I think you are buying too much into this universe as a machine
>> >> >> >> > thing. There
>> >> >> >> > exists here creatures with conciousness, and I think that it a
>> >> >> >> > game
>> >> >> >> > changer.
>> >> >> >> > I think that when a brain that is cabaple of expressing
>> >> >> >> > conciouse
>> >> >> >> > thought
>> >> >> >> > arises, then right there is the gremlin in the machine. We can
>> >> >> >> > see
>> >> >> >> > that
>> >> >> >> > humanity has changed the face of the planet for it's own ends.
>> >> >> >> > It
>> >> >> >> > is
>> >> >> >> > our
>> >> >> >> > conciousness, a conciousness that has arisen out th natural
>> >> >> >> > world,
>> >> >> >> > bound by
>> >> >> >> > nautural laws, yet still capable of changing all around it.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Think of it this way.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Electricity is simply the movements of electrons, but ahhhh the
>> >> >> >> > things we
>> >> >> >> > can now do with it, and the things that are imagined in the
>> >> >> >> > future.
>> >> >> >> > Electricity like all things of mater are as you say bound by
>> >> >> >> > laws,
>> >> >> >> > and so
>> >> >> >> > one would imagine that we can already tell what we may or may
>> >> >> >> > not
>> >> >> >> > be
>> >> >> >> > able to
>> >> >> >> > do with it, are you one of those, do you imagine that we know
>> >> >> >> > whats
>> >> >> >> > in store
>> >> >> >> > for electricity ion the future, or can you invisage other
>> >> >> >> > things?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > On Thursday, 12 July 2012 13:53:49 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> The will to change yourself comes from within you , but those
>> >> >> >> >> who
>> >> >> >> >> are
>> >> >> >> >> ignorant of the intricacies of nature think that they have
>> >> >> >> >> brought
>> >> >> >> >> about this change. When you breathe you think that you are
>> >> >> >> >> freely
>> >> >> >> >> doing so but the fact is that it is your body which is
>> >> >> >> >> demanding
>> >> >> >> >> it.
>> >> >> >> >> Whether you are controlling your anger or not is in your hands
>> >> >> >> >> but
>> >> >> >> >> your decisions arise from the working of your brain which is
>> >> >> >> >> matter
>> >> >> >> >> and as such governed by neurological or biological principles.
>> >> >> >> >> If
>> >> >> >> >> freedom was real the whole machinery of the universe would
>> >> >> >> >> have
>> >> >> >> >> collapsed and there would have been mayhem everywhere , but
>> >> >> >> >> that
>> >> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> >> not the case and wherever you look you find harmony within.
>> >> >> >> >> Whatever
>> >> >> >> >> a
>> >> >> >> >> man does it is his nature expressing itself , where I would
>> >> >> >> >> have
>> >> >> >> >> beaten up a child mercilessly you would not have because you
>> >> >> >> >> are
>> >> >> >> >> not
>> >> >> >> >> free , if you think you are go ahead and shoot up your enemy ,
>> >> >> >> >> but
>> >> >> >> >> of
>> >> >> >> >> course you would not because your reason would stop you where
>> >> >> >> >> mine
>> >> >> >> >> would not. If you think that is freedom , then you are really
>> >> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> >> master of yourself.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Lee Douglas
>> >> >> >> >> <leerevdoug...@gmail.com>
>> >> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> > My youngest son, like my good self suffers form anger
>> >> >> >> >> > issues.
>> >> >> >> >> > We
>> >> >> >> >> > have
>> >> >> >> >> > had a
>> >> >> >> >> > fine time in his 16 years dealing with this, teaching him to
>> >> >> >> >> > control
>> >> >> >> >> > this
>> >> >> >> >> > anger, urging him to learn when it is right and justfied to
>> >> >> >> >> > let
>> >> >> >> >> > it
>> >> >> >> >> > out,
>> >> >> >> >> > and
>> >> >> >> >> > when doing so brings only harm to him and those around him.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> > RP's stance would render all of this meaningless. That it
>> >> >> >> >> > is
>> >> >> >> >> > not
>> >> >> >> >> > his
>> >> >> >> >> > choice
>> >> >> >> >> > but Gods, when he looses control of his anger, indeed that
>> >> >> >> >> > such
>> >> >> >> >> > an
>> >> >> >> >> > expression as 'Control of his anger' becomes meaningless,
>> >> >> >> >> > there
>> >> >> >> >> > is
>> >> >> >> >> > no
>> >> >> >> >> > control.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> > I don't like this stance, and I certianly do not agree with
>> >> >> >> >> > it.
>> >> >> >> >> > There
>> >> >> >> >> > are
>> >> >> >> >> > many reasons, but perhaps the biggest is merely differances
>> >> >> >> >> > in
>> >> >> >> >> > inturpretating this message. God asks that you give up your
>> >> >> >> >> > head,
>> >> >> >> >> > that
>> >> >> >> >> > you
>> >> >> >> >> > surrender your will to the will of the One instead. God
>> >> >> >> >> > asks
>> >> >> >> >> > and
>> >> >> >> >> > then
>> >> >> >> >> > if
>> >> >> >> >> > you are so inclinede you do as asked, but you certianly have
>> >> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> >> > freedom
>> >> >> >> >> > of
>> >> >> >> >> > choice in this matter, ss in every other matter.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> > It is easy to say, I have no will but the will of the One
>> >> >> >> >> > moves
>> >> >> >> >> > through
>> >> >> >> >> > me.
>> >> >> >> >> > It is a cop out though isn't it? It declares that 'I' have
>> >> >> >> >> > no
>> >> >> >> >> > choice,
>> >> >> >> >> > that
>> >> >> >> >> > the things I do I have not done. Can you imagine a World
>> >> >> >> >> > where
>> >> >> >> >> > such
>> >> >> >> >> > thinking was parramount?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> > Ohhh nooo, I do not like this line of reasonig it does not
>> >> >> >> >> > conform
>> >> >> >> >> > to
>> >> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> >> > idea of a loving God and it makes us all guiltless of the
>> >> >> >> >> > worst
>> >> >> >> >> > of
>> >> >> >> >> > human
>> >> >> >> >> > behaviour.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> > On Sunday, 8 July 2012 16:57:23 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> The ' I ' is a projection of the mind , which is matter.
>> >> >> >> >> >> Matter
>> >> >> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> >> >> under
>> >> >> >> >> >> the control of various laws and can never be free. Many of
>> >> >> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> >> >> constraints
>> >> >> >> >> >> to our 'will' are visible and accepted by all. It takes a
>> >> >> >> >> >> deep
>> >> >> >> >> >> understanding
>> >> >> >> >> >> to the know the bondage behind the obviously ' free will '
>> >> >> >> >> >> .It
>> >> >> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> >> >> so
>> >> >> >> >> >> easy to
>> >> >> >> >> >> accept the obvious , but to know the subtle ties that bind
>> >> >> >> >> >> us
>> >> >> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> >> >> true
>> >> >> >> >> >> understanding.- Hide quoted text -
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> - Show quoted text -