Re: Mind's Eye Re: Matter

Allan , you stay with the shadows , I don't need you.

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 6:14 PM, Allan H <allanh1946@gmail.com> wrote:
> RP I staying out of your foolishness.. as I have read what your wrote I
> do not think you even really know what you are saying,,
> You are a devote atheist by your own declaration.. But thin I really do
> not think you understand just what an atheist is.
>
> To the rest of the group I am prosperously out of this discussion because of
> the psycho babble put out by RP I find it lacking is in stimulation or
> introducing new ideas or concepts, I do not want to getting into a word
> battle because over the years I have found out that emotionally he is
> little more than child that idea of winning and argument is whining.
> Allan
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 1:57 PM, RP Singh <1234rp@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Consciousness changes nothing. It only means that there is life. For a
>> machinery to run smoothly every cog has to do its part , it has to run
>> according to plan. Now if you are given freedom of choice the machine
>> would fail. Conscious thought doesn't mean that you are above the
>> system , but you are running with the system which itself is in the
>> hands of nature from within or from outside the organism. This is what
>> makes life interesting. Your body is a system and you are part of it
>> in the sense that some actions involve your conscious participation
>> but that doesn't mean you are running the system , rather you are
>> running with it. God is not separate from you , He is your innermost
>> being and you are just a projection from Him. So giving you a free
>> hand doesn't occur as you are not separate from Him.
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 4:22 PM, Lee Douglas <leerevdouglas@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Again why? By what logic do you say this? How exactly would human
>> > freedom
>> > of choice be above Gods laws?
>> >
>> > Rather than say the whole concept of human freedom of choice being in
>> > concord with Gods laws?
>> >
>> >
>> > I posit that human freedom of choice is all part of Gods plan and so I
>> > fail
>> > to see how acting within 'these' laws causes mayhem everywhere. If it
>> > is
>> > true, that God both exists and has placd laws in motion governing the
>> > running of the universe, then how exaclty could anything act beyond
>> > these
>> > laws?
>> >
>> > The next bit is a massive piece of trickery on your part RP. You
>> > ever-so
>> > casually say '....and if you leave the awareness part aside...', but
>> > that is
>> > the point isn't it? It is very clear that we cannot leave the awarness
>> > part
>> > aside. So what does that say for the rest of you sentance?
>> >
>> > Say you have a needle, that has not been magnatised. You want to
>> > magnitise
>> > it so you go grab a magnet and start stroking it along the lenght of the
>> > needle.
>> >
>> > You have just used the laws of nature to change the charictoristics of a
>> > thing. Much like my claim, human freedom of choice does negate any of
>> > Gods
>> > laws, and you have yet to show me how you think it does.
>> >
>> > You are correct though, we are all bound by laws. I cannot fly unadied,
>> > I
>> > cannot twist my head 360 degress on my neck, but the laws that govern
>> > the
>> > biology the physicality of my brain have made it so that I am conciouse,
>> > I
>> > am conciouse of my self as differant from other entities and I am
>> > capable of
>> > thought, and reasoning, which all leads quite naturally to my freedom of
>> > choice. Conciouseness is the key it is the game changer.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Friday, 13 July 2012 09:46:15 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Whatever is happening in this universe is happening according to laws
>> >> because it is through laws alone that God can control the universe. If
>> >> human freedom is real it would be above God's laws or you may say that
>> >> you are acting without God's sanction and if so there would be no
>> >> control of nature and there would be mayhem everywhere.
>> >> Another point is that matter obeys laws , which is true of the human
>> >> biological system also , and if you leave the awareness part aside we
>> >> are nothing but matter and thus subject to laws of biology ,
>> >> psychology , etc.
>> >> Again, we desire to change our nature but that will comes from inside
>> >> us and if we persevere that quality is innate in us and if we
>> >> cultivate it , it is a desire prompted by our system. In fact , we are
>> >> not above our system but part of it.We can do that only which our
>> >> system allows us , whether it be due to genetic or learned factors ,.
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Lee Douglas <leerevdouglas@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Again though RP. We are capable of changing our nature. Now I
>> >> > suspect
>> >> > that
>> >> > you will claim that such change was not of our choosing but simply
>> >> > the
>> >> > gogs
>> >> > moving. No I can't get with that, it is human conciousness that you
>> >> > ignore
>> >> > in all of this.
>> >> >
>> >> > I ask again, by what mechanism does the mechanichs of the universe
>> >> > invalidate human freedom of choice?
>> >> >
>> >> > Rig's commnet on training animals and rearing children is a good one,
>> >> > as
>> >> > it
>> >> > shows that creatures with conciousness have the capacity to learn.
>> >> > If
>> >> > we
>> >> > can learn about a thing then we have the power to manipulate that
>> >> > thing.
>> >> > Are you then claiming that such manipulation has to occour that both
>> >> > learning and usage of that which is learnt are part of your gogs,
>> >> > that
>> >> > by
>> >> > learning a thing you have to then use that learning?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Thursday, 12 July 2012 19:22:37 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Rigs , your conscious choice to do anything is according to your
>> >> >> nature-- it is your nature to express your disagreement whereas mine
>> >> >> might be to keep quiet and shrug it off. Whatever the choice it is
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> human system which acts and whether anyone likes it or not
>> >> >> individuals
>> >> >> are predisposed to act and react in a certain manner . We are
>> >> >> genetically predisposed and change if any is due to the effect of
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> environment on us. The environment is also not in our hands and we
>> >> >> are pushed into it by our parents or to choose according to our
>> >> >> liking
>> >> >> from the options available.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 11:11 PM, rigsy03 <rigsy03@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > I disagree. It is a conscious choice to behave in a certain
>> >> >> > manner-
>> >> >> > opposed to instincts. The choice is made to conform to values-
>> >> >> > whether
>> >> >> > family, religion, social group, etc. While it is true we are a
>> >> >> > speck,
>> >> >> > so to speak, we do have enormous influence within and upon the
>> >> >> > circle
>> >> >> > we are in- during and even after our lifetime. To think all is
>> >> >> > pre-
>> >> >> > ordained doesn't add up to much of a god for one thing, nor to
>> >> >> > human
>> >> >> > intelligence, for another. Part of the problem with our modern era
>> >> >> > is
>> >> >> > to shift responsibilty to let ourselves off the hook; but another
>> >> >> > factor is the breakdown of the family structure often due to
>> >> >> > economic
>> >> >> > forces as much as frivolous choices. Values can be changed- let's
>> >> >> > say
>> >> >> > in a family unit- but it usually takes a few generations- the same
>> >> >> > holds for nations/cultures. That's what I referred to about
>> >> >> > backward,
>> >> >> > violent nations and types- you just can't effect meaningful
>> >> >> > instant
>> >> >> > change- either by force/war or throwing vast sums of money after
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > problems, maladjustments. And protest movements are not a new
>> >> >> > idea,
>> >> >> > either- some worked, others did not.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On Jul 12, 12:08 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> You control your anger and as far as you and others are concerned
>> >> >> >> you
>> >> >> >> are free, but in reality it is the biological system that is you
>> >> >> >> that
>> >> >> >> is doing everything according to its nature. So in the context of
>> >> >> >> this
>> >> >> >> universe- machine you are just a cog following a definite course.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Lee Douglas
>> >> >> >> <leerevdoug...@gmail.com>
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >> > Your reply makes no sense RP.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > How does it follow that human free will would bring about the
>> >> >> >> > collaspe of
>> >> >> >> > the whole 'machine'?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Are you saying that we have no conciouse control over
>> >> >> >> > breathing,
>> >> >> >> > that
>> >> >> >> > we
>> >> >> >> > cannot choose to hold our breathes and in turn choose to start
>> >> >> >> > breathing
>> >> >> >> > again?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > I get you mostly, but I simply cannot get past the seemig
>> >> >> >> > contradictions. I
>> >> >> >> > can control my anger, I have that control yet I do not because
>> >> >> >> > this
>> >> >> >> > control
>> >> >> >> > is just how my physical brain works? No mate it can't be both,
>> >> >> >> > either I
>> >> >> >> > have can control my anger or I cannot control anything. Either
>> >> >> >> > my
>> >> >> >> > control
>> >> >> >> > is real or it is an illusion, which is it?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > The other thing that I have to talk about is the mechanisim by
>> >> >> >> > which
>> >> >> >> > a brain
>> >> >> >> > that must work in line with certian laws of physics somehow
>> >> >> >> > negates
>> >> >> >> > human
>> >> >> >> > freedom of choice? How does it do that, I mean how, exactly?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > I think you are buying too much into this universe as a machine
>> >> >> >> > thing. There
>> >> >> >> > exists here creatures with conciousness, and I think that it a
>> >> >> >> > game
>> >> >> >> > changer.
>> >> >> >> > I think that when a brain that is cabaple of expressing
>> >> >> >> > conciouse
>> >> >> >> > thought
>> >> >> >> > arises, then right there is the gremlin in the machine. We can
>> >> >> >> > see
>> >> >> >> > that
>> >> >> >> > humanity has changed the face of the planet for it's own ends.
>> >> >> >> > It
>> >> >> >> > is
>> >> >> >> > our
>> >> >> >> > conciousness, a conciousness that has arisen out th natural
>> >> >> >> > world,
>> >> >> >> > bound by
>> >> >> >> > nautural laws, yet still capable of changing all around it.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Think of it this way.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Electricity is simply the movements of electrons, but ahhhh the
>> >> >> >> > things we
>> >> >> >> > can now do with it, and the things that are imagined in the
>> >> >> >> > future.
>> >> >> >> > Electricity like all things of mater are as you say bound by
>> >> >> >> > laws,
>> >> >> >> > and so
>> >> >> >> > one would imagine that we can already tell what we may or may
>> >> >> >> > not
>> >> >> >> > be
>> >> >> >> > able to
>> >> >> >> > do with it, are you one of those, do you imagine that we know
>> >> >> >> > whats
>> >> >> >> > in store
>> >> >> >> > for electricity ion the future, or can you invisage other
>> >> >> >> > things?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > On Thursday, 12 July 2012 13:53:49 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> The will to change yourself comes from within you , but those
>> >> >> >> >> who
>> >> >> >> >> are
>> >> >> >> >> ignorant of the intricacies of nature think that they have
>> >> >> >> >> brought
>> >> >> >> >> about this change. When you breathe you think that you are
>> >> >> >> >> freely
>> >> >> >> >> doing so but the fact is that it is your body which is
>> >> >> >> >> demanding
>> >> >> >> >> it.
>> >> >> >> >> Whether you are controlling your anger or not is in your hands
>> >> >> >> >> but
>> >> >> >> >> your decisions arise from the working of your brain which is
>> >> >> >> >> matter
>> >> >> >> >> and as such governed by neurological or biological principles.
>> >> >> >> >> If
>> >> >> >> >> freedom was real the whole machinery of the universe would
>> >> >> >> >> have
>> >> >> >> >> collapsed and there would have been mayhem everywhere , but
>> >> >> >> >> that
>> >> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> >> not the case and wherever you look you find harmony within.
>> >> >> >> >> Whatever
>> >> >> >> >> a
>> >> >> >> >> man does it is his nature expressing itself , where I would
>> >> >> >> >> have
>> >> >> >> >> beaten up a child mercilessly you would not have because you
>> >> >> >> >> are
>> >> >> >> >> not
>> >> >> >> >> free , if you think you are go ahead and shoot up your enemy ,
>> >> >> >> >> but
>> >> >> >> >> of
>> >> >> >> >> course you would not because your reason would stop you where
>> >> >> >> >> mine
>> >> >> >> >> would not. If you think that is freedom , then you are really
>> >> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> >> master of yourself.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Lee Douglas
>> >> >> >> >> <leerevdoug...@gmail.com>
>> >> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> > My youngest son, like my good self suffers form anger
>> >> >> >> >> > issues.
>> >> >> >> >> > We
>> >> >> >> >> > have
>> >> >> >> >> > had a
>> >> >> >> >> > fine time in his 16 years dealing with this, teaching him to
>> >> >> >> >> > control
>> >> >> >> >> > this
>> >> >> >> >> > anger, urging him to learn when it is right and justfied to
>> >> >> >> >> > let
>> >> >> >> >> > it
>> >> >> >> >> > out,
>> >> >> >> >> > and
>> >> >> >> >> > when doing so brings only harm to him and those around him.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> > RP's stance would render all of this meaningless. That it
>> >> >> >> >> > is
>> >> >> >> >> > not
>> >> >> >> >> > his
>> >> >> >> >> > choice
>> >> >> >> >> > but Gods, when he looses control of his anger, indeed that
>> >> >> >> >> > such
>> >> >> >> >> > an
>> >> >> >> >> > expression as 'Control of his anger' becomes meaningless,
>> >> >> >> >> > there
>> >> >> >> >> > is
>> >> >> >> >> > no
>> >> >> >> >> > control.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> > I don't like this stance, and I certianly do not agree with
>> >> >> >> >> > it.
>> >> >> >> >> > There
>> >> >> >> >> > are
>> >> >> >> >> > many reasons, but perhaps the biggest is merely differances
>> >> >> >> >> > in
>> >> >> >> >> > inturpretating this message. God asks that you give up your
>> >> >> >> >> > head,
>> >> >> >> >> > that
>> >> >> >> >> > you
>> >> >> >> >> > surrender your will to the will of the One instead. God
>> >> >> >> >> > asks
>> >> >> >> >> > and
>> >> >> >> >> > then
>> >> >> >> >> > if
>> >> >> >> >> > you are so inclinede you do as asked, but you certianly have
>> >> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> >> > freedom
>> >> >> >> >> > of
>> >> >> >> >> > choice in this matter, ss in every other matter.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> > It is easy to say, I have no will but the will of the One
>> >> >> >> >> > moves
>> >> >> >> >> > through
>> >> >> >> >> > me.
>> >> >> >> >> > It is a cop out though isn't it? It declares that 'I' have
>> >> >> >> >> > no
>> >> >> >> >> > choice,
>> >> >> >> >> > that
>> >> >> >> >> > the things I do I have not done. Can you imagine a World
>> >> >> >> >> > where
>> >> >> >> >> > such
>> >> >> >> >> > thinking was parramount?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> > Ohhh nooo, I do not like this line of reasonig it does not
>> >> >> >> >> > conform
>> >> >> >> >> > to
>> >> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> >> > idea of a loving God and it makes us all guiltless of the
>> >> >> >> >> > worst
>> >> >> >> >> > of
>> >> >> >> >> > human
>> >> >> >> >> > behaviour.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> > On Sunday, 8 July 2012 16:57:23 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> The ' I ' is a projection of the mind , which is matter.
>> >> >> >> >> >> Matter
>> >> >> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> >> >> under
>> >> >> >> >> >> the control of various laws and can never be free. Many of
>> >> >> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> >> >> constraints
>> >> >> >> >> >> to our 'will' are visible and accepted by all. It takes a
>> >> >> >> >> >> deep
>> >> >> >> >> >> understanding
>> >> >> >> >> >> to the know the bondage behind the obviously ' free will '
>> >> >> >> >> >> .It
>> >> >> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> >> >> so
>> >> >> >> >> >> easy to
>> >> >> >> >> >> accept the obvious , but to know the subtle ties that bind
>> >> >> >> >> >> us
>> >> >> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> >> >> true
>> >> >> >> >> >> understanding.- Hide quoted text -
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> - Show quoted text -
>
>
>
>
> --
> (
> )
> |_D Allan
>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
>
>