Re: Mind's Eye Re: Matter

All well and good and you would think that line of reasoning is the clincher, alas though, I do not find it so.

 

Yes yes, of course our brains are dependant upon the biochemical processes for it to work, this still does not deny freedom of choice though.  Otherwise how is it that things like CBT work?  We are all aware of Cognative Disonance and can take steps to remedy it's effects upon our belifes, by what mechanism does this work?  Again I think you undersell Conciousness, what it means for species with it, and it's affects up on us.
On Friday, 13 July 2012 18:26:24 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:

Bio-chemical processes precede conscious thought and action and since
these processes precede the will it is bound by them and not free.
When  the brain becomes dysfunctional ,thoughts and behavior also is
affected which goes to corroborate the notion of bondage. In major
psychosis chemicals change the thought processes and actions of the
patient which again goes to support my stance of human bondage.

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Lee Douglas <leerevdouglas@gmail.com> wrote:
> Again though RP.  We are capable of changing our nature.  Now I suspect that
> you will claim that such change was not of our choosing but simply the gogs
> moving.  No I can't get with that, it is human conciousness that you ignore
> in all of this.
>
> I ask again, by what mechanism does the mechanichs of the universe
> invalidate human freedom of choice?
>
> Rig's commnet on training animals and rearing children is a good one, as it
> shows that creatures with conciousness have the capacity to learn.  If we
> can learn about a thing then we have the power to manipulate that thing.
> Are you then claiming that such manipulation has to occour that both
> learning and usage of that which is learnt are part of your gogs, that by
> learning a thing you have to then use that learning?
>
>
> On Thursday, 12 July 2012 19:22:37 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>>
>> Rigs , your conscious choice to do anything is according to your
>> nature-- it is your nature to express your disagreement whereas mine
>> might be to keep quiet and shrug it off. Whatever the choice it is the
>> human system which acts and whether anyone likes it or not individuals
>> are predisposed to act and react  in a certain manner . We are
>> genetically predisposed and change if any is due to the effect of the
>> environment on us.  The environment is also not in our hands and we
>> are pushed into it by our parents or to choose according to our liking
>> from the options available.
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 11:11 PM, rigsy03 <rigsy03@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > I disagree. It is a conscious choice to behave in a certain manner-
>> > opposed to instincts. The choice is made to conform to values- whether
>> > family, religion, social group, etc. While it is true we are a speck,
>> > so to speak, we do have enormous influence within and upon the circle
>> > we are in- during and even after our lifetime. To think all is pre-
>> > ordained doesn't add up to much of a god for one thing, nor to human
>> > intelligence, for another. Part of the problem with our modern era is
>> > to shift responsibilty to let ourselves off the hook; but another
>> > factor is the breakdown of the family structure often due to economic
>> > forces as much as frivolous choices. Values can be changed- let's say
>> > in a family unit- but it usually takes a few generations- the same
>> > holds for nations/cultures. That's what I referred to about backward,
>> > violent nations and types- you just can't effect meaningful instant
>> > change- either by force/war or throwing vast sums of money after the
>> > problems, maladjustments. And protest movements are not a new idea,
>> > either- some worked, others did not.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Jul 12, 12:08 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> You control your anger and as far as you and others are concerned you
>> >> are free, but in reality it is the biological system that is you that
>> >> is doing everything according to its nature. So in the context of this
>> >> universe- machine you are just a cog following a definite course.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Your reply makes no sense RP.
>> >>
>> >> > How does it follow that human free will would bring about the
>> >> > collaspe of
>> >> > the whole 'machine'?
>> >>
>> >> > Are you saying that we have no conciouse control over breathing, that
>> >> > we
>> >> > cannot choose to hold our breathes and in turn choose to start
>> >> > breathing
>> >> > again?
>> >>
>> >> > I get you mostly, but I simply cannot get past the seemig
>> >> > contradictions.  I
>> >> > can control my anger, I have that control yet I do not because this
>> >> > control
>> >> > is just how my physical brain works?  No mate it can't be both,
>> >> > either I
>> >> > have can control my anger or I cannot control anything.  Either my
>> >> > control
>> >> > is real or it is an illusion, which is it?
>> >>
>> >> > The other thing that I have to talk about is the mechanisim by which
>> >> > a brain
>> >> > that must work in line with certian laws of physics somehow negates
>> >> > human
>> >> > freedom of choice? How does it do that, I mean how, exactly?
>> >>
>> >> > I think you are buying too much into this universe as a machine
>> >> > thing. There
>> >> > exists here creatures with conciousness, and I think that it a game
>> >> > changer.
>> >> > I think that when a brain that is cabaple of expressing conciouse
>> >> > thought
>> >> > arises, then right there is the gremlin in the machine.  We can see
>> >> > that
>> >> > humanity has changed the face of the planet for it's own ends.  It is
>> >> > our
>> >> > conciousness, a conciousness that has arisen out th natural world,
>> >> > bound by
>> >> > nautural laws, yet still capable of changing all around it.
>> >>
>> >> > Think of it this way.
>> >>
>> >> > Electricity is simply the movements of electrons, but ahhhh the
>> >> > things we
>> >> > can now do with it, and the things that are imagined in the future.
>> >> > Electricity like all things of mater are as you say bound by laws,
>> >> > and so
>> >> > one would imagine that we can already tell what we may or may not be
>> >> > able to
>> >> > do with it, are you one of those, do you imagine that we know whats
>> >> > in store
>> >> > for electricity ion the future, or can you invisage other things?
>> >>
>> >> > On Thursday, 12 July 2012 13:53:49 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> The will to change yourself comes from within you , but those who
>> >> >> are
>> >> >> ignorant of the intricacies of nature think that they have brought
>> >> >> about this change. When you breathe you think that you are  freely
>> >> >> doing so but the fact is that it is your body which is demanding it.
>> >> >> Whether you are controlling your anger or not is in your hands but
>> >> >> your decisions arise from the working of your brain which is matter
>> >> >> and as such governed by neurological or biological principles. If
>> >> >> freedom was real the whole machinery of the universe would have
>> >> >> collapsed and there would have been mayhem everywhere , but that is
>> >> >> not the case and wherever you look you find harmony within. Whatever
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> man does it is his nature expressing itself , where I would have
>> >> >> beaten up a child mercilessly  you would not have because you are
>> >> >> not
>> >> >> free , if you think you are go ahead and shoot up your enemy , but
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> course you would not because your reason would stop you where mine
>> >> >> would not. If you think that is freedom , then you are really the
>> >> >> master of yourself.
>> >>
>> >> >> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Lee Douglas
>> >> >> <leerevdoug...@gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > My youngest son, like my good self suffers form anger issues.  We
>> >> >> > have
>> >> >> > had a
>> >> >> > fine time in his 16 years dealing with this, teaching him to
>> >> >> > control
>> >> >> > this
>> >> >> > anger, urging him to learn when it is right and justfied to let it
>> >> >> > out,
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> > when doing so brings only harm to him and those around him.
>> >>
>> >> >> > RP's stance would render all of this meaningless.  That it is not
>> >> >> > his
>> >> >> > choice
>> >> >> > but Gods, when he looses control of his anger, indeed that such an
>> >> >> > expression as 'Control of his anger' becomes meaningless, there is
>> >> >> > no
>> >> >> > control.
>> >>
>> >> >> > I don't like this stance, and I certianly do not agree with it.
>> >> >> > There
>> >> >> > are
>> >> >> > many reasons, but perhaps the biggest is merely differances in
>> >> >> > inturpretating this message.  God asks that you give up your head,
>> >> >> > that
>> >> >> > you
>> >> >> > surrender your will to the will of the One instead.  God asks and
>> >> >> > then
>> >> >> > if
>> >> >> > you are so inclinede you do as asked, but you certianly have the
>> >> >> > freedom
>> >> >> > of
>> >> >> > choice in this matter, ss in every other matter.
>> >>
>> >> >> > It is easy to say, I have no will but the will of the One moves
>> >> >> > through
>> >> >> > me.
>> >> >> > It is a cop out though isn't it?  It declares that 'I' have no
>> >> >> > choice,
>> >> >> > that
>> >> >> > the things I do I have not done.  Can you imagine a World where
>> >> >> > such
>> >> >> > thinking was parramount?
>> >>
>> >> >> > Ohhh nooo, I do not like this line of reasonig it does not conform
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > idea of a loving God and it makes us all guiltless of the worst of
>> >> >> > human
>> >> >> > behaviour.
>> >>
>> >> >> > On Sunday, 8 July 2012 16:57:23 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> >> The ' I ' is a projection of the mind , which is matter. Matter
>> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> under
>> >> >> >> the control of various laws and can never be free. Many of the
>> >> >> >> constraints
>> >> >> >> to our 'will' are visible and accepted by all. It takes a deep
>> >> >> >> understanding
>> >> >> >> to the know the bondage behind the obviously ' free will ' .It is
>> >> >> >> so
>> >> >> >> easy to
>> >> >> >> accept the obvious , but to know the subtle ties that bind us is
>> >> >> >> true
>> >> >> >> understanding.- Hide quoted text -
>> >>
>> >> - Show quoted text -