Re: Mind's Eye Re: Matter

Consciousness changes nothing. It only means that there is life. For a
machinery to run smoothly every cog has to do its part , it has to run
according to plan. Now if you are given freedom of choice the machine
would fail. Conscious thought doesn't mean that you are above the
system , but you are running with the system which itself is in the
hands of nature from within or from outside the organism. This is what
makes life interesting. Your body is a system and you are part of it
in the sense that some actions involve your conscious participation
but that doesn't mean you are running the system , rather you are
running with it. God is not separate from you , He is your innermost
being and you are just a projection from Him. So giving you a free
hand doesn't occur as you are not separate from Him.

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 4:22 PM, Lee Douglas <leerevdouglas@gmail.com> wrote:
> Again why? By what logic do you say this? How exactly would human freedom
> of choice be above Gods laws?
>
> Rather than say the whole concept of human freedom of choice being in
> concord with Gods laws?
>
>
> I posit that human freedom of choice is all part of Gods plan and so I fail
> to see how acting within 'these' laws causes mayhem everywhere. If it is
> true, that God both exists and has placd laws in motion governing the
> running of the universe, then how exaclty could anything act beyond these
> laws?
>
> The next bit is a massive piece of trickery on your part RP. You ever-so
> casually say '....and if you leave the awareness part aside...', but that is
> the point isn't it? It is very clear that we cannot leave the awarness part
> aside. So what does that say for the rest of you sentance?
>
> Say you have a needle, that has not been magnatised. You want to magnitise
> it so you go grab a magnet and start stroking it along the lenght of the
> needle.
>
> You have just used the laws of nature to change the charictoristics of a
> thing. Much like my claim, human freedom of choice does negate any of Gods
> laws, and you have yet to show me how you think it does.
>
> You are correct though, we are all bound by laws. I cannot fly unadied, I
> cannot twist my head 360 degress on my neck, but the laws that govern the
> biology the physicality of my brain have made it so that I am conciouse, I
> am conciouse of my self as differant from other entities and I am capable of
> thought, and reasoning, which all leads quite naturally to my freedom of
> choice. Conciouseness is the key it is the game changer.
>
>
>
> On Friday, 13 July 2012 09:46:15 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>>
>> Whatever is happening in this universe is happening according to laws
>> because it is through laws alone that God can control the universe. If
>> human freedom is real it would be above God's laws or you may say that
>> you are acting without God's sanction and if so there would be no
>> control of nature and there would be mayhem everywhere.
>> Another point is that matter obeys laws , which is true of the human
>> biological system also , and if you leave the awareness part aside we
>> are nothing but matter and thus subject to laws of biology ,
>> psychology , etc.
>> Again, we desire to change our nature but that will comes from inside
>> us and if we persevere that quality is innate in us and if we
>> cultivate it , it is a desire prompted by our system. In fact , we are
>> not above our system but part of it.We can do that only which our
>> system allows us , whether it be due to genetic or learned factors ,.
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Lee Douglas <leerevdouglas@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Again though RP. We are capable of changing our nature. Now I suspect
>> > that
>> > you will claim that such change was not of our choosing but simply the
>> > gogs
>> > moving. No I can't get with that, it is human conciousness that you
>> > ignore
>> > in all of this.
>> >
>> > I ask again, by what mechanism does the mechanichs of the universe
>> > invalidate human freedom of choice?
>> >
>> > Rig's commnet on training animals and rearing children is a good one, as
>> > it
>> > shows that creatures with conciousness have the capacity to learn. If
>> > we
>> > can learn about a thing then we have the power to manipulate that thing.
>> > Are you then claiming that such manipulation has to occour that both
>> > learning and usage of that which is learnt are part of your gogs, that
>> > by
>> > learning a thing you have to then use that learning?
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thursday, 12 July 2012 19:22:37 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Rigs , your conscious choice to do anything is according to your
>> >> nature-- it is your nature to express your disagreement whereas mine
>> >> might be to keep quiet and shrug it off. Whatever the choice it is the
>> >> human system which acts and whether anyone likes it or not individuals
>> >> are predisposed to act and react in a certain manner . We are
>> >> genetically predisposed and change if any is due to the effect of the
>> >> environment on us. The environment is also not in our hands and we
>> >> are pushed into it by our parents or to choose according to our liking
>> >> from the options available.
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 11:11 PM, rigsy03 <rigsy03@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> > I disagree. It is a conscious choice to behave in a certain manner-
>> >> > opposed to instincts. The choice is made to conform to values-
>> >> > whether
>> >> > family, religion, social group, etc. While it is true we are a speck,
>> >> > so to speak, we do have enormous influence within and upon the circle
>> >> > we are in- during and even after our lifetime. To think all is pre-
>> >> > ordained doesn't add up to much of a god for one thing, nor to human
>> >> > intelligence, for another. Part of the problem with our modern era is
>> >> > to shift responsibilty to let ourselves off the hook; but another
>> >> > factor is the breakdown of the family structure often due to economic
>> >> > forces as much as frivolous choices. Values can be changed- let's say
>> >> > in a family unit- but it usually takes a few generations- the same
>> >> > holds for nations/cultures. That's what I referred to about backward,
>> >> > violent nations and types- you just can't effect meaningful instant
>> >> > change- either by force/war or throwing vast sums of money after the
>> >> > problems, maladjustments. And protest movements are not a new idea,
>> >> > either- some worked, others did not.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Jul 12, 12:08 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> You control your anger and as far as you and others are concerned
>> >> >> you
>> >> >> are free, but in reality it is the biological system that is you
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> is doing everything according to its nature. So in the context of
>> >> >> this
>> >> >> universe- machine you are just a cog following a definite course.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Lee Douglas
>> >> >> <leerevdoug...@gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > Your reply makes no sense RP.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > How does it follow that human free will would bring about the
>> >> >> > collaspe of
>> >> >> > the whole 'machine'?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Are you saying that we have no conciouse control over breathing,
>> >> >> > that
>> >> >> > we
>> >> >> > cannot choose to hold our breathes and in turn choose to start
>> >> >> > breathing
>> >> >> > again?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > I get you mostly, but I simply cannot get past the seemig
>> >> >> > contradictions. I
>> >> >> > can control my anger, I have that control yet I do not because
>> >> >> > this
>> >> >> > control
>> >> >> > is just how my physical brain works? No mate it can't be both,
>> >> >> > either I
>> >> >> > have can control my anger or I cannot control anything. Either my
>> >> >> > control
>> >> >> > is real or it is an illusion, which is it?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > The other thing that I have to talk about is the mechanisim by
>> >> >> > which
>> >> >> > a brain
>> >> >> > that must work in line with certian laws of physics somehow
>> >> >> > negates
>> >> >> > human
>> >> >> > freedom of choice? How does it do that, I mean how, exactly?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > I think you are buying too much into this universe as a machine
>> >> >> > thing. There
>> >> >> > exists here creatures with conciousness, and I think that it a
>> >> >> > game
>> >> >> > changer.
>> >> >> > I think that when a brain that is cabaple of expressing conciouse
>> >> >> > thought
>> >> >> > arises, then right there is the gremlin in the machine. We can
>> >> >> > see
>> >> >> > that
>> >> >> > humanity has changed the face of the planet for it's own ends. It
>> >> >> > is
>> >> >> > our
>> >> >> > conciousness, a conciousness that has arisen out th natural world,
>> >> >> > bound by
>> >> >> > nautural laws, yet still capable of changing all around it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Think of it this way.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Electricity is simply the movements of electrons, but ahhhh the
>> >> >> > things we
>> >> >> > can now do with it, and the things that are imagined in the
>> >> >> > future.
>> >> >> > Electricity like all things of mater are as you say bound by laws,
>> >> >> > and so
>> >> >> > one would imagine that we can already tell what we may or may not
>> >> >> > be
>> >> >> > able to
>> >> >> > do with it, are you one of those, do you imagine that we know
>> >> >> > whats
>> >> >> > in store
>> >> >> > for electricity ion the future, or can you invisage other things?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Thursday, 12 July 2012 13:53:49 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> The will to change yourself comes from within you , but those who
>> >> >> >> are
>> >> >> >> ignorant of the intricacies of nature think that they have
>> >> >> >> brought
>> >> >> >> about this change. When you breathe you think that you are
>> >> >> >> freely
>> >> >> >> doing so but the fact is that it is your body which is demanding
>> >> >> >> it.
>> >> >> >> Whether you are controlling your anger or not is in your hands
>> >> >> >> but
>> >> >> >> your decisions arise from the working of your brain which is
>> >> >> >> matter
>> >> >> >> and as such governed by neurological or biological principles. If
>> >> >> >> freedom was real the whole machinery of the universe would have
>> >> >> >> collapsed and there would have been mayhem everywhere , but that
>> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> not the case and wherever you look you find harmony within.
>> >> >> >> Whatever
>> >> >> >> a
>> >> >> >> man does it is his nature expressing itself , where I would have
>> >> >> >> beaten up a child mercilessly you would not have because you are
>> >> >> >> not
>> >> >> >> free , if you think you are go ahead and shoot up your enemy ,
>> >> >> >> but
>> >> >> >> of
>> >> >> >> course you would not because your reason would stop you where
>> >> >> >> mine
>> >> >> >> would not. If you think that is freedom , then you are really the
>> >> >> >> master of yourself.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Lee Douglas
>> >> >> >> <leerevdoug...@gmail.com>
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >> > My youngest son, like my good self suffers form anger issues.
>> >> >> >> > We
>> >> >> >> > have
>> >> >> >> > had a
>> >> >> >> > fine time in his 16 years dealing with this, teaching him to
>> >> >> >> > control
>> >> >> >> > this
>> >> >> >> > anger, urging him to learn when it is right and justfied to let
>> >> >> >> > it
>> >> >> >> > out,
>> >> >> >> > and
>> >> >> >> > when doing so brings only harm to him and those around him.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > RP's stance would render all of this meaningless. That it is
>> >> >> >> > not
>> >> >> >> > his
>> >> >> >> > choice
>> >> >> >> > but Gods, when he looses control of his anger, indeed that such
>> >> >> >> > an
>> >> >> >> > expression as 'Control of his anger' becomes meaningless, there
>> >> >> >> > is
>> >> >> >> > no
>> >> >> >> > control.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > I don't like this stance, and I certianly do not agree with it.
>> >> >> >> > There
>> >> >> >> > are
>> >> >> >> > many reasons, but perhaps the biggest is merely differances in
>> >> >> >> > inturpretating this message. God asks that you give up your
>> >> >> >> > head,
>> >> >> >> > that
>> >> >> >> > you
>> >> >> >> > surrender your will to the will of the One instead. God asks
>> >> >> >> > and
>> >> >> >> > then
>> >> >> >> > if
>> >> >> >> > you are so inclinede you do as asked, but you certianly have
>> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> > freedom
>> >> >> >> > of
>> >> >> >> > choice in this matter, ss in every other matter.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > It is easy to say, I have no will but the will of the One moves
>> >> >> >> > through
>> >> >> >> > me.
>> >> >> >> > It is a cop out though isn't it? It declares that 'I' have no
>> >> >> >> > choice,
>> >> >> >> > that
>> >> >> >> > the things I do I have not done. Can you imagine a World where
>> >> >> >> > such
>> >> >> >> > thinking was parramount?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Ohhh nooo, I do not like this line of reasonig it does not
>> >> >> >> > conform
>> >> >> >> > to
>> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> > idea of a loving God and it makes us all guiltless of the worst
>> >> >> >> > of
>> >> >> >> > human
>> >> >> >> > behaviour.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > On Sunday, 8 July 2012 16:57:23 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> The ' I ' is a projection of the mind , which is matter.
>> >> >> >> >> Matter
>> >> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> >> under
>> >> >> >> >> the control of various laws and can never be free. Many of the
>> >> >> >> >> constraints
>> >> >> >> >> to our 'will' are visible and accepted by all. It takes a deep
>> >> >> >> >> understanding
>> >> >> >> >> to the know the bondage behind the obviously ' free will ' .It
>> >> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> >> so
>> >> >> >> >> easy to
>> >> >> >> >> accept the obvious , but to know the subtle ties that bind us
>> >> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> >> true
>> >> >> >> >> understanding.- Hide quoted text -
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - Show quoted text -