|
There's a way to challenge this through the legal system-
Constitutional Law; Ts for the greedy gainers, Aitle 16, Criminal Code
- Life Sentence/ RICO Act: Federal Prison.
On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 4:06 PM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
> The question for Hazare and all rebellion is about doing more than
> just replace business-as-usual with new faces in charge. I think the
> constructive step in this is to leave law-making with the people in a
> substantial way. All socialist experiments failed on this.
>
> On Dec 31, 11:40 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I just took a moment to look over the Anna Hazare way and need a lot more
>> reading.
>>
>> No crook whether public or private wants to be held accountable for their
>> activities the biggest problem with the occupy movement is the lack of
>> focus they are trying to hit a cloud with a shoot gun. It does need a more
>> focused point that can be changed a one step at a time thing like full
>> open accountability for the government,
>> Allan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 7:40 AM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Participatory Democracy is about trying to create Audit and Citizen
>> > Care institutions...
>>
>> > Quite along same lines that modern organisation performance management
>> > practice verges... 1) Accts, Policy & Process Audit and 2) Customer
>> > Care, which create the 360 degree path around the Executive / Govt -
>> > Doing / Performing, How / Targeting and Utilising, and What / WTF is
>> > being delivered.
>>
>> > And, true, to go beyond writing papers and expressing pious
>> > thoughts... it has to be fought the Anna Hazare way in India, which
>> > incidently I found to be better than Occupy Wall Street, in Anna's was
>> > more defined - he wanted a Law, a statute that had been well worked
>> > upon and provisioned with anti-graft investigation and govt services
>> > delivery audit, systems and processes, and unprecedented prosecution
>> > speed and sentence quantas... all laid out in consultation with the
>> > public over long.
>>
>> > The Right To Information and Vigilance Commission were others. And the
>> > autonomous Election Commission before that. The Judiciary alone was
>> > doing the doing the job. The Comptroller & Audit General used to do an
>> > excellent job but invariably ignored.
>>
>> > Yeah... institutions, that need to be fought for in the streets
>> > because the govts, as companies, do not want any meaningful audit,
>> > much less prosecution for ill doings.
>>
>> > On Dec 31, 12:48 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > Participatory Democracy is the answer but the problem is eliminating the
>> > > super citizen or corporate citizens..
>>
>> > > It will work when corporations have a limited time copyright say 15 years
>> > > then it automatically becomes public domain. the problem is not so much
>> > > in organizing citizens,, but in controlling the super citizens who use
>> > > wealth to control the government.
>> > > Allan
>>
>> > > On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 6:31 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > Some way off-beam I've just read that it's men who differ most from
>> > > > chimps genetically - to do with the complexity of the Y chromosome and
>> > > > its influence on sperm production. I tend to hold to such distinction
>> > > > and its irrelevance to public equality.
>>
>> > > > I believe, like Vam, that answers can come from more participatory
>> > > > democracy. I also believe that merely asserting this is no answer at
>> > > > all. One can too easily imagine Obama or Palin making the statement.
>> > > > Or some half-assed Bolshevik. Just as allowing people to amass wealth
>> > > > allows them to amass power, the demos can also be scripted power that
>> > > > can be as bad. It's a mistake to make this into a 'faith choice'
>> > > > issue. The usual academic turn at this point is to notions of social
>> > > > contract.
>>
>> > > > On Dec 30, 2:54 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > > I have a feeling that this character, Vam, has usurped all the space
>> > > > > that is there... so that no one else may now be allowed entry !
>>
>> > > > > Well, fkrs, there is no limiot to space if you did not know ! So, get
>> > > > > over that excuse.
>>
>> > > > > Also I might have taken this conversation into an area you might not
>> > > > > be as comfortable.
>> > > > > Hell, in that case, have the balls to say so !
>> > > > > Females may forgive, not because I used the term but because I do not
>> > > > > know of the term to draw you all in the same order. I hold absolutely
>> > > > > no distinction between genders, if you would believe.
>>
>> > > > > On Dec 30, 8:36 am, Edward Mason <masonedward...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > > > > Indeed, Vam!
>>
>> > > > > > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > > > > > > Gabby... Hunger everywhere is wrong. There is enough food on this
>> > > > > > > planet to feed everyone. But the economics has not made it
>> > possible.
>> > > > > > > Even when the law declares...
>>
>> > > > > > > Yes, the Supreme Court here ordered the Govt to distribute excess
>> > > > food
>> > > > > > > grains in its silos among the hungry ! But the Minister simply
>> > said,
>> > > > "
>> > > > > > > It is not possible."
>>
>> > > > > > > And no one was booked, can ever be booked, for causing hunger !
>>
>> > > > > > > Rigs... Neil is speaking of the same thing... we all are.
>> > > > > > > ... how to take control of at least the critical aspects of our
>> > > > lives.
>>
>> > > > > > > I wish people here could extend this discussion, in thought and
>> > idea,
>> > > > > > > and... among other things, become more free, more happy, more
>> > self -
>> > > > > > > empowered. So that they end up doing things in that light. Often,
>> > > > > > > almost always, they do not.
>>
>> > > > > > > I believe Edward is speaking of the same thing... action in the
>> > light
>> > > > > > > of knowledge. Not mere emotions, which economics of the day
>> > exploits.
>> > > > > > > And so is Allan, when he uses his " beliefs " for making
>> > decisions.
>>
>> > > > > > > We are all trying to take more control of our lives.
>> > > > > > > And, bringing it on this platform is BEAUTIFUL.
>>
>> > > > > > > On Dec 30, 1:15 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > > > >> If the law is not the law but an ass, it explains why in truth
>> > > > there is no
>> > > > > > >> one to blame. If the law is the law than you know it is being
>> > set
>> > > > up by
>> > > > > > >> men. The same is true for economics. And you would eventually
>> > find
>> > > > someone
>> > > > > > >> to blame.
>>
>> > > > > > >> As for your seeds metaphor, it is no coincidence that the
>> > children's
>> > > > > > >> interests are not visible in this specific court room or market
>> > > > place. They
>> > > > > > >> are not to be held accountable for what they cannot oversee yet.
>> > > > There are
>> > > > > > >> proofs for that, which have been accepted as such.
>>
>> > > > > > >> As for the limitation of science and objectivity, you are
>> > right. If
>> > > > one
>> > > > > > >> could get all peer reviewers from the past, the present and the
>> > > > future
>> > > > > > >> together in one room discussing each theory properly, then we'd
>> > > > have it! ;)
>>
>> > > > > > >> On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > > > > > >> > "... trees don't exist unless someone observes them."
>>
>> > > > > > >> > That's the limitation of science and objectivity. That's why
>> > the
>> > > > law
>> > > > > > >> > is an ass. That's how predatory economics has clear toehold in
>> > > > > > >> > society. They all get away because there is no crime committed
>> > > > unless
>> > > > > > >> > one is caught or there are effects to show here and now !
>>
>> > > > > > >> > How is one to establish and measure crimes that are seeded...
>> > for
>> > > > > > >> > which there are no observers, no complaints... for which there
>> > > > are no
>> > > > > > >> > laws... or for which laws can be extended or interpreted to
>> > > > exclude
>> > > > > > >> > them !
>>
>> > > > > > >> > The truth is : There trees galore that are invisible now...
>> > in the
>> > > > > > >> > seeds, which will sprout months, years, decades and centuries
>> > > > later !
>> > > > > > >> > Without admitting this fact, we can never hope to tackle
>> > climate
>> > > > > > >> > issues, environment and sustainability problems. There is no
>> > one
>> > > > > > >> > specific to blame. Much ( e.g. emissions ) is approved and
>> > > > admissible
>> > > > > > >> > as of now, and is not a crime. And, the effects are invariably
>> > > > long -
>> > > > > > >> > term, so there are no objective proofs here and now.
>>
>> > > > > > >> > Try presenting theories and results of studies and research
>> > in a
>> > > > court
>> > > > > > >> > of law... and they will either be unconvincing or simply
>> > countered
>> > > > > > >> > with another of the same !
>>
>> > > > > > >> > On Dec 28, 11:14 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > > > >> > > That states the issue more or less as I see it rigsy -
>> > though I
>> > > > don't
>> > > > > > >> > > do the Xtian thing as religion. It's more that much could
>> > be
>> > > > > > >> > > recovered in religion if we could get away from its
>> > > > factionalisms.
>> > > > > > >> > > What gets to me in economics or any form of social science
>> > is
>> > > > we seem
>> > > > > > >> > > to forget we are just (or should be) trying to do our best
>> > and
>> > > > are
>> > > > > > >> > > making decisions that affect human beings rather than some
>> > > > culture
>> > > > > > >> > > under glass or whatever. I don't want to leap into faith in
>> > > > theory
>> > > > > > >> > > beyond something that retains realistic hope of reasonable
>> > > > equality
>> > > > > > >> > > and freedom for most people.
>> > > > > > >> > > I don't think religion per se can achieve this, but a better
>> > > > > > >> > > understanding of it might help. One can throw up thought
>> > > > experiments
>> > > > > > >> > > - such as whether the unseen tree exists and so on - but
>> > people
>> > > > are
>> > > > > > >> > > inclined to forget these are classroom tricks to get some
>> > > > thinking
>> > > > > > >> > > done rather than assertions trees don't exist unless
>> > someone
>> > > > observes
>> > > > > > >> > > them. Economists have forgotten their models are thought
>> > > > > > >> > > experiments. Some of the models rely on such stupid
>> > notions of
>> > > > human
>> > > > > > >> > > nature as to be risible. Expecting people to behave
>> > rationally
>> > > > seems
>> > > > > > >> > > absurd to me given what we know of ourselves as social
>> > animals
>> > > > now.
>> > > > > > >> > > What I've seen in a great deal of academic modelling is
>> > more or
>> > > > less
>> > > > > > >> > > similar to what Vam (and others) point out as putting
>> > something
>> > > > on
>> > > > > > >> > > paper and arguing as though that is all that should be
>> > argued
>> > > > when
>>
>> ...
>>
>> read more »
On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 6:45 PM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
> Fraternal greetings to all. And good luck to us all.
>
> On Dec 31, 11:10 pm, Francis Hunt <francis.h...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> The same to you and to all regular and occasional visitors at ME, Alan
>>
>> On 1 January 2012 00:00, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > best wishes
>> > Allan
>>
>> > --
>> > (
>> > )
>> > |_D Allan
>>
>> > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>>
>> --
>> Francis Hunt
>>
>> *francishunt.blogspot.com*
On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 3:44 PM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
> You're off moderation doc - so your posts will show straight away.
>
> On Dec 31, 1:22 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Do you make housecalls? :-) Welcome to the group!
>>
>> On Dec 29, 9:37 am, "Dr. Lovett" <drgordonlov...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > I would like to join. I enjoyed the posts. They were provocative and
>> > thought that i might have something to offer.
On Dec 28 2011, 7:38 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This years was great,, only dinner on christmas eve and the rest just me
> and my wife how sweet it is.
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 8:12 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The kicker for me is dark rum, preferably Navy issue (Pusser's). I
> > get mellow but feel bad enough the following day to prevent any desire
> > to repeat for a year or two.
>
> > On Dec 27, 3:10 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Some of us are happy via Skype or the telephone, also. I wish I could
> > > enjoy tea- it seems so insipid versus coffee. It reminds me of wine
> > > versus whiskey in the old days.
>
> > > On Dec 26, 5:52 pm, Francis Hunt <francis.h...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Gave both series of The Killing on DVD to my daughter for Christmas.
> > Well
> > > > worth watching. I spent Christmas Day - as always - with my daughters
> > and
> > > > grandson; in the end, the most important thing about Christmas is being
> > > > with and loving your family and those you love. We finished a very late
> > > > evening with the girls drinking Baileys (and me tea), watching Monty
> > > > Python's take on the Christmas story - the Life of Brian ... :-)
>
> > > > On 26 December 2011 22:21, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > In backward Britain we get Lovefilm - I have to use hide my IP to get
> > > > > Netflix and get my mate in Saratoga Springs to pay via transfer from
> > > > > me. You're right Molly - roll on the time when I don't have to rely
> > > > > on C4 and BBC4 for European series and films. We've just had 'The
> > > > > Killing' from Danish TV which was superb. The idea of self-
> > > > > compilation is good and the market is way behind.
>
> > > > > On Dec 26, 2:03 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > Netflix and the latest online viewing technology have revived my
> > > > > > viewing pleasure. My new bluetooth TV device lets us watch you
> > tube
> > > > > > videos in succession by subject or artist on the big screen. Shows
> > > > > > like a biography or histography. Fascinating when watching Bill
> > > > > > Hicks, the comedian, or emmy lou harris, who what played with some
> > of
> > > > > > the best musicians in the business in her career. Bye bye
> > commercial
> > > > > > TV!
>
> > > > > > On Dec 26, 5:43 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > I understand.. but I leave mine off ost of the day while the
> > wife is
> > > > > gone
> > > > > > > the house is very quiet just me and my dogs. Glad Xmas is
> > over..
> > > > > > > Allan
>
> > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 11:23 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > Just had a few beers with my neighbour and substantial chat
> > about
> > > > > > > > cricket (he played a couple of games for the West Indies). Now
> > > > > > > > fiddling with new computer bits for my grandson's gaming
> > monster and
> > > > > > > > discovering I need some new cables to work around the giant
> > graphics
> > > > > > > > card etc. May hit the Brazil nuts and dark rum shortly. A
> > house
> > > > > > > > without a tv is a rarity these days - I may emulate my mate.
>
> > > > > > > > On Dec 25, 9:24 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Spent the day watching christmas tear jerkers.
> > > > > > > > > love being with my wife ..
> > > > > > > > > Allan
>
> > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 5:04 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com
>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Nearly all the tv news today is about the Royal Family -
> > sadly
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > about lining them up against a convenient wall. Enough to
> > chase
> > > > > me
> > > > > > > > > > out to the pub - but taxis are on double time. Walk with
> > the
> > > > > dog by
> > > > > > > > > > the river was good.
>
> > > > > > > > > > Xmas television always makes me think how many wrong turns
> > we
> > > > > must
> > > > > > > > > > have taken and how impossible democracy is as a concept if
> > this
> > > > > is a
> > > > > > > > > > good example of what we have become. We get the Queen
> > lecturing
> > > > > us
> > > > > > > > > > (with her 50 billion plus) lecturing us on a man who
> > eschewed
> > > > > personal
> > > > > > > > > > wealth and no one gets to pelt her with rotten eggs. My
> > > > > daughter's
> > > > > > > > > > oven broke as she started cooking Xmas dinner, so I
> > transformed
> > > > > into
> > > > > > > > > > 24hr turnout man to fix the fuse. This was more exciting
> > than
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > tv. Sitting down wondering if anyone in my family says
> > thankyou
> > > > > > > > > > anymore and clutching to a coffee, the news turned to a
> > lovely
> > > > > woman
> > > > > > > > > > doing OccupyX - and I realised all is not lost. Our
> > ordinary
> > > > > lives
> > > > > > > > > > are all that matters in many respects. My neighbour just
> > popped
> > > > > round
> > > > > > > > > > to suggest a few brews later. He doesn't have a tv.
> > That's the
> > > > > best
> > > > > > > > > > Xmas television of all!
>
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > (
> > > > > > > > > )
> > > > > > > > > |_D Allan
>
> > > > > > > > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > (
> > > > > > > )
> > > > > > > |_D Allan
>
> > > > > > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> > > > --
> > > > Francis Hunt
>
> > > > *francishunt.blogspot.com*- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> --
> (
> )
> |_D Allan
>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
On Dec 31, 11:40 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I just took a moment to look over the Anna Hazare way and need a lot more
> reading.
>
> No crook whether public or private wants to be held accountable for their
> activities the biggest problem with the occupy movement is the lack of
> focus they are trying to hit a cloud with a shoot gun. It does need a more
> focused point that can be changed a one step at a time thing like full
> open accountability for the government,
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 7:40 AM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Participatory Democracy is about trying to create Audit and Citizen
> > Care institutions...
>
> > Quite along same lines that modern organisation performance management
> > practice verges... 1) Accts, Policy & Process Audit and 2) Customer
> > Care, which create the 360 degree path around the Executive / Govt -
> > Doing / Performing, How / Targeting and Utilising, and What / WTF is
> > being delivered.
>
> > And, true, to go beyond writing papers and expressing pious
> > thoughts... it has to be fought the Anna Hazare way in India, which
> > incidently I found to be better than Occupy Wall Street, in Anna's was
> > more defined - he wanted a Law, a statute that had been well worked
> > upon and provisioned with anti-graft investigation and govt services
> > delivery audit, systems and processes, and unprecedented prosecution
> > speed and sentence quantas... all laid out in consultation with the
> > public over long.
>
> > The Right To Information and Vigilance Commission were others. And the
> > autonomous Election Commission before that. The Judiciary alone was
> > doing the doing the job. The Comptroller & Audit General used to do an
> > excellent job but invariably ignored.
>
> > Yeah... institutions, that need to be fought for in the streets
> > because the govts, as companies, do not want any meaningful audit,
> > much less prosecution for ill doings.
>
> > On Dec 31, 12:48 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Participatory Democracy is the answer but the problem is eliminating the
> > > super citizen or corporate citizens..
>
> > > It will work when corporations have a limited time copyright say 15 years
> > > then it automatically becomes public domain. the problem is not so much
> > > in organizing citizens,, but in controlling the super citizens who use
> > > wealth to control the government.
> > > Allan
>
> > > On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 6:31 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Some way off-beam I've just read that it's men who differ most from
> > > > chimps genetically - to do with the complexity of the Y chromosome and
> > > > its influence on sperm production. I tend to hold to such distinction
> > > > and its irrelevance to public equality.
>
> > > > I believe, like Vam, that answers can come from more participatory
> > > > democracy. I also believe that merely asserting this is no answer at
> > > > all. One can too easily imagine Obama or Palin making the statement.
> > > > Or some half-assed Bolshevik. Just as allowing people to amass wealth
> > > > allows them to amass power, the demos can also be scripted power that
> > > > can be as bad. It's a mistake to make this into a 'faith choice'
> > > > issue. The usual academic turn at this point is to notions of social
> > > > contract.
>
> > > > On Dec 30, 2:54 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > I have a feeling that this character, Vam, has usurped all the space
> > > > > that is there... so that no one else may now be allowed entry !
>
> > > > > Well, fkrs, there is no limiot to space if you did not know ! So, get
> > > > > over that excuse.
>
> > > > > Also I might have taken this conversation into an area you might not
> > > > > be as comfortable.
> > > > > Hell, in that case, have the balls to say so !
> > > > > Females may forgive, not because I used the term but because I do not
> > > > > know of the term to draw you all in the same order. I hold absolutely
> > > > > no distinction between genders, if you would believe.
>
> > > > > On Dec 30, 8:36 am, Edward Mason <masonedward...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Indeed, Vam!
>
> > > > > > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > Gabby... Hunger everywhere is wrong. There is enough food on this
> > > > > > > planet to feed everyone. But the economics has not made it
> > possible.
> > > > > > > Even when the law declares...
>
> > > > > > > Yes, the Supreme Court here ordered the Govt to distribute excess
> > > > food
> > > > > > > grains in its silos among the hungry ! But the Minister simply
> > said,
> > > > "
> > > > > > > It is not possible."
>
> > > > > > > And no one was booked, can ever be booked, for causing hunger !
>
> > > > > > > Rigs... Neil is speaking of the same thing... we all are.
> > > > > > > ... how to take control of at least the critical aspects of our
> > > > lives.
>
> > > > > > > I wish people here could extend this discussion, in thought and
> > idea,
> > > > > > > and... among other things, become more free, more happy, more
> > self -
> > > > > > > empowered. So that they end up doing things in that light. Often,
> > > > > > > almost always, they do not.
>
> > > > > > > I believe Edward is speaking of the same thing... action in the
> > light
> > > > > > > of knowledge. Not mere emotions, which economics of the day
> > exploits.
> > > > > > > And so is Allan, when he uses his " beliefs " for making
> > decisions.
>
> > > > > > > We are all trying to take more control of our lives.
> > > > > > > And, bringing it on this platform is BEAUTIFUL.
>
> > > > > > > On Dec 30, 1:15 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >> If the law is not the law but an ass, it explains why in truth
> > > > there is no
> > > > > > >> one to blame. If the law is the law than you know it is being
> > set
> > > > up by
> > > > > > >> men. The same is true for economics. And you would eventually
> > find
> > > > someone
> > > > > > >> to blame.
>
> > > > > > >> As for your seeds metaphor, it is no coincidence that the
> > children's
> > > > > > >> interests are not visible in this specific court room or market
> > > > place. They
> > > > > > >> are not to be held accountable for what they cannot oversee yet.
> > > > There are
> > > > > > >> proofs for that, which have been accepted as such.
>
> > > > > > >> As for the limitation of science and objectivity, you are
> > right. If
> > > > one
> > > > > > >> could get all peer reviewers from the past, the present and the
> > > > future
> > > > > > >> together in one room discussing each theory properly, then we'd
> > > > have it! ;)
>
> > > > > > >> On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > >> > "... trees don't exist unless someone observes them."
>
> > > > > > >> > That's the limitation of science and objectivity. That's why
> > the
> > > > law
> > > > > > >> > is an ass. That's how predatory economics has clear toehold in
> > > > > > >> > society. They all get away because there is no crime committed
> > > > unless
> > > > > > >> > one is caught or there are effects to show here and now !
>
> > > > > > >> > How is one to establish and measure crimes that are seeded...
> > for
> > > > > > >> > which there are no observers, no complaints... for which there
> > > > are no
> > > > > > >> > laws... or for which laws can be extended or interpreted to
> > > > exclude
> > > > > > >> > them !
>
> > > > > > >> > The truth is : There trees galore that are invisible now...
> > in the
> > > > > > >> > seeds, which will sprout months, years, decades and centuries
> > > > later !
> > > > > > >> > Without admitting this fact, we can never hope to tackle
> > climate
> > > > > > >> > issues, environment and sustainability problems. There is no
> > one
> > > > > > >> > specific to blame. Much ( e.g. emissions ) is approved and
> > > > admissible
> > > > > > >> > as of now, and is not a crime. And, the effects are invariably
> > > > long -
> > > > > > >> > term, so there are no objective proofs here and now.
>
> > > > > > >> > Try presenting theories and results of studies and research
> > in a
> > > > court
> > > > > > >> > of law... and they will either be unconvincing or simply
> > countered
> > > > > > >> > with another of the same !
>
> > > > > > >> > On Dec 28, 11:14 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >> > > That states the issue more or less as I see it rigsy -
> > though I
> > > > don't
> > > > > > >> > > do the Xtian thing as religion. It's more that much could
> > be
> > > > > > >> > > recovered in religion if we could get away from its
> > > > factionalisms.
> > > > > > >> > > What gets to me in economics or any form of social science
> > is
> > > > we seem
> > > > > > >> > > to forget we are just (or should be) trying to do our best
> > and
> > > > are
> > > > > > >> > > making decisions that affect human beings rather than some
> > > > culture
> > > > > > >> > > under glass or whatever. I don't want to leap into faith in
> > > > theory
> > > > > > >> > > beyond something that retains realistic hope of reasonable
> > > > equality
> > > > > > >> > > and freedom for most people.
> > > > > > >> > > I don't think religion per se can achieve this, but a better
> > > > > > >> > > understanding of it might help. One can throw up thought
> > > > experiments
> > > > > > >> > > - such as whether the unseen tree exists and so on - but
> > people
> > > > are
> > > > > > >> > > inclined to forget these are classroom tricks to get some
> > > > thinking
> > > > > > >> > > done rather than assertions trees don't exist unless
> > someone
> > > > observes
> > > > > > >> > > them. Economists have forgotten their models are thought
> > > > > > >> > > experiments. Some of the models rely on such stupid
> > notions of
> > > > human
> > > > > > >> > > nature as to be risible. Expecting people to behave
> > rationally
> > > > seems
> > > > > > >> > > absurd to me given what we know of ourselves as social
> > animals
> > > > now.
> > > > > > >> > > What I've seen in a great deal of academic modelling is
> > more or
> > > > less
> > > > > > >> > > similar to what Vam (and others) point out as putting
> > something
> > > > on
> > > > > > >> > > paper and arguing as though that is all that should be
> > argued
> > > > when
>
> ...
>
> read more »
On Dec 31, 10:08 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> my my, he was born 8 months after they were married,, wonder what that
> has to say about good old winston
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 2:35 PM, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > He was half American- his mother was Jenny Jerome who lived a daring
> > life- you can probably Google her. His father was Randolph, I believe,
> > who married for money like other peers of the period. His gift was
> > "blah"- a spurring rhetoric. His histories are not respected by
> > history majors as he fudged the facts. Like Napoleon, he has many
> > admirers who disregard the terrible realities of their dances with
> > history.
>
> > Jenny, by the way, had two later husbands younger than her son. Her
> > death is a warning against high heels- a heel broke- she fell down the
> > stairs- the mend was botched- her leg was amputated- blood poisoning-
> > death. Amen.
>
> > On Dec 30, 6:31 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Two came with the house Allan. The one at the back blew down - pity
> > > as it was a nice mountain ash type of rowan. The one in the front is
> > > called a street rowan and serves no purpose other than to block out
> > > what little sun we get at the front. An odd squirrel or two use it.
> > > I know it's ours only because the Council wouldn't include it when the
> > > thinned out some street trees last year. I have rather more against
> > > Churchill than the tree, but would like to replace it with something
> > > more colourful. Churchill is something of a heroic oak in our popular
> > > culture, but led the country to bankruptcy in wars that suited the
> > > American Empire rather too well for me to believe it was accidental.
> > > He was hand-in-glove with JP Morgan and they now run our Post Office
> > > bank accounts!
>
> > > I feel the proof issues in matters like this are more likely to have
> > > relevance to why we have no democracy free of bankster-finance than
> > > speculation that god is proved by the fact the tree is in the
> > > quadrangle when we don't look.
>
> > > On Dec 30, 8:35 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Maybe a better question is why would you need a rowan tree Neil
> > > > Allan
>
> > > > On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 8:46 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Questions like whether the tree is in the quadrangle if no one is
> > > > > looking are classroom tricks aimed at getting some thinking going.
> > > > > Frege had some ideas I've not seen discussed in here. For him, ideas
> > > > > were not thoughts. Thoughts existed in a third realm. I'm shaky on
> > > > > phenomenology - largely because a lot of it ends up in a complex
> > > > > lexicon of terms to describe itself. Heidegger suggested the firm
> > > > > ground of our lives was a better place to consider thoughts and
> > > > > thinking.
>
> > > > > Ordinary objects like trees are problematic in philosophy - they turn
> > > > > out to be some structure of atoms and so on. Some have suggested we
> > > > > should exclude them. In language I can say that 'unheard trees have
> > > > > been done to death' and most will get the drift, without thinking I
> > > > > have been out beating unheard trees with my cricket bat. Frankly, if
> > > > > the unheard tree stuff had an import we'd find illegal logging
> > > > > companies telling us about it when their sawmills were full and our
> > > > > forests empty.
>
> > > > > More interesting to me is that I can say (truthfully) that there is a
> > > > > rowan tree in my front garden. Confirming this is relatively
> > > > > straightforward. What I think we need to be better able to spot as
> > in
> > > > > need of argument is stuff like the context of argument that allows
> > > > > politicians to tell us the same lies over and over again. This might
> > > > > help is to a better grip on what democracy is as a theory-in-action.
>
> > > > > Let me cast this by saying I believe Winston Churchill was an
> > American
> > > > > spy and bag man for JP Morgan - against the fact that there is a
> > rowan
> > > > > tree in my front garden. It's easy enough for you to ask for
> > evidence
> > > > > to establish beyond doubt that the rowan tree is where I say it is
> > > > > (however much we might discuss its atoms or whether it's there when
> > > > > none of us is watching it). What we should ask is why the Churchill
> > > > > thing is so much more difficult (I can't prove this to my own
> > > > > satisfaction as a fact - but what would be the grounds)?
>
> > > > --
> > > > (
> > > > )
> > > > |_D Allan
>
> > > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> --
> (
> )
> |_D Allan
>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
On Dec 31, 11:10 pm, Francis Hunt <francis.h...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> The same to you and to all regular and occasional visitors at ME, Alan
>
> On 1 January 2012 00:00, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > best wishes
> > Allan
>
> > --
> > (
> > )
> > |_D Allan
>
> > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> --
> Francis Hunt
>
> *francishunt.blogspot.com*
On Dec 31, 1:22 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Do you make housecalls? :-) Welcome to the group!
>
> On Dec 29, 9:37 am, "Dr. Lovett" <drgordonlov...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I would like to join. I enjoyed the posts. They were provocative and
> > thought that i might have something to offer.
best wishesAllan--
()|_D AllanLife is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
He was half American- his mother was Jenny Jerome who lived a daring
life- you can probably Google her. His father was Randolph, I believe,
who married for money like other peers of the period. His gift was
"blah"- a spurring rhetoric. His histories are not respected by
history majors as he fudged the facts. Like Napoleon, he has many
admirers who disregard the terrible realities of their dances with
history.
Jenny, by the way, had two later husbands younger than her son. Her
death is a warning against high heels- a heel broke- she fell down the
stairs- the mend was botched- her leg was amputated- blood poisoning-
death. Amen.
> > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text -
On Dec 30, 6:31 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Two came with the house Allan. The one at the back blew down - pity
> as it was a nice mountain ash type of rowan. The one in the front is
> called a street rowan and serves no purpose other than to block out
> what little sun we get at the front. An odd squirrel or two use it.
> I know it's ours only because the Council wouldn't include it when the
> thinned out some street trees last year. I have rather more against
> Churchill than the tree, but would like to replace it with something
> more colourful. Churchill is something of a heroic oak in our popular
> culture, but led the country to bankruptcy in wars that suited the
> American Empire rather too well for me to believe it was accidental.
> He was hand-in-glove with JP Morgan and they now run our Post Office
> bank accounts!
>
> I feel the proof issues in matters like this are more likely to have
> relevance to why we have no democracy free of bankster-finance than
> speculation that god is proved by the fact the tree is in the
> quadrangle when we don't look.
>
> On Dec 30, 8:35 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Maybe a better question is why would you need a rowan tree Neil
> > Allan
>
> > On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 8:46 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Questions like whether the tree is in the quadrangle if no one is
> > > looking are classroom tricks aimed at getting some thinking going.
> > > Frege had some ideas I've not seen discussed in here. For him, ideas
> > > were not thoughts. Thoughts existed in a third realm. I'm shaky on
> > > phenomenology - largely because a lot of it ends up in a complex
> > > lexicon of terms to describe itself. Heidegger suggested the firm
> > > ground of our lives was a better place to consider thoughts and
> > > thinking.
>
> > > Ordinary objects like trees are problematic in philosophy - they turn
> > > out to be some structure of atoms and so on. Some have suggested we
> > > should exclude them. In language I can say that 'unheard trees have
> > > been done to death' and most will get the drift, without thinking I
> > > have been out beating unheard trees with my cricket bat. Frankly, if
> > > the unheard tree stuff had an import we'd find illegal logging
> > > companies telling us about it when their sawmills were full and our
> > > forests empty.
>
> > > More interesting to me is that I can say (truthfully) that there is a
> > > rowan tree in my front garden. Confirming this is relatively
> > > straightforward. What I think we need to be better able to spot as in
> > > need of argument is stuff like the context of argument that allows
> > > politicians to tell us the same lies over and over again. This might
> > > help is to a better grip on what democracy is as a theory-in-action.
>
> > > Let me cast this by saying I believe Winston Churchill was an American
> > > spy and bag man for JP Morgan - against the fact that there is a rowan
> > > tree in my front garden. It's easy enough for you to ask for evidence
> > > to establish beyond doubt that the rowan tree is where I say it is
> > > (however much we might discuss its atoms or whether it's there when
> > > none of us is watching it). What we should ask is why the Churchill
> > > thing is so much more difficult (I can't prove this to my own
> > > satisfaction as a fact - but what would be the grounds)?
>
> > --
> > (
> > )
> > |_D Allan
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
Jenny, by the way, had two later husbands younger than her son. Her
death is a warning against high heels- a heel broke- she fell down the
stairs- the mend was botched- her leg was amputated- blood poisoning-
death. Amen.
On Dec 30, 6:31 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Two came with the house Allan. The one at the back blew down - pity
> as it was a nice mountain ash type of rowan. The one in the front is
> called a street rowan and serves no purpose other than to block out
> what little sun we get at the front. An odd squirrel or two use it.
> I know it's ours only because the Council wouldn't include it when the
> thinned out some street trees last year. I have rather more against
> Churchill than the tree, but would like to replace it with something
> more colourful. Churchill is something of a heroic oak in our popular
> culture, but led the country to bankruptcy in wars that suited the
> American Empire rather too well for me to believe it was accidental.
> He was hand-in-glove with JP Morgan and they now run our Post Office
> bank accounts!
>
> I feel the proof issues in matters like this are more likely to have
> relevance to why we have no democracy free of bankster-finance than
> speculation that god is proved by the fact the tree is in the
> quadrangle when we don't look.
>
> On Dec 30, 8:35 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Maybe a better question is why would you need a rowan tree Neil
> > Allan
>
> > On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 8:46 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Questions like whether the tree is in the quadrangle if no one is
> > > looking are classroom tricks aimed at getting some thinking going.
> > > Frege had some ideas I've not seen discussed in here. For him, ideas
> > > were not thoughts. Thoughts existed in a third realm. I'm shaky on
> > > phenomenology - largely because a lot of it ends up in a complex
> > > lexicon of terms to describe itself. Heidegger suggested the firm
> > > ground of our lives was a better place to consider thoughts and
> > > thinking.
>
> > > Ordinary objects like trees are problematic in philosophy - they turn
> > > out to be some structure of atoms and so on. Some have suggested we
> > > should exclude them. In language I can say that 'unheard trees have
> > > been done to death' and most will get the drift, without thinking I
> > > have been out beating unheard trees with my cricket bat. Frankly, if
> > > the unheard tree stuff had an import we'd find illegal logging
> > > companies telling us about it when their sawmills were full and our
> > > forests empty.
>
> > > More interesting to me is that I can say (truthfully) that there is a
> > > rowan tree in my front garden. Confirming this is relatively
> > > straightforward. What I think we need to be better able to spot as in
> > > need of argument is stuff like the context of argument that allows
> > > politicians to tell us the same lies over and over again. This might
> > > help is to a better grip on what democracy is as a theory-in-action.
>
> > > Let me cast this by saying I believe Winston Churchill was an American
> > > spy and bag man for JP Morgan - against the fact that there is a rowan
> > > tree in my front garden. It's easy enough for you to ask for evidence
> > > to establish beyond doubt that the rowan tree is where I say it is
> > > (however much we might discuss its atoms or whether it's there when
> > > none of us is watching it). What we should ask is why the Churchill
> > > thing is so much more difficult (I can't prove this to my own
> > > satisfaction as a fact - but what would be the grounds)?
>
> > --
> > (
> > )
> > |_D Allan
>
> > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
On Dec 29, 9:37 am, "Dr. Lovett" <drgordonlov...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would like to join. I enjoyed the posts. They were provocative and
> thought that i might have something to offer.
Participatory Democracy is about trying to create Audit and Citizen
Care institutions...
Quite along same lines that modern organisation performance management
practice verges... 1) Accts, Policy & Process Audit and 2) Customer
Care, which create the 360 degree path around the Executive / Govt -
Doing / Performing, How / Targeting and Utilising, and What / WTF is
being delivered.
And, true, to go beyond writing papers and expressing pious
thoughts... it has to be fought the Anna Hazare way in India, which
incidently I found to be better than Occupy Wall Street, in Anna's was
more defined - he wanted a Law, a statute that had been well worked
upon and provisioned with anti-graft investigation and govt services
delivery audit, systems and processes, and unprecedented prosecution
speed and sentence quantas... all laid out in consultation with the
public over long.
The Right To Information and Vigilance Commission were others. And the
autonomous Election Commission before that. The Judiciary alone was
doing the doing the job. The Comptroller & Audit General used to do an
excellent job but invariably ignored.
Yeah... institutions, that need to be fought for in the streets
because the govts, as companies, do not want any meaningful audit,
much less prosecution for ill doings.
On Dec 31, 12:48 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Participatory Democracy is the answer but the problem is eliminating the
> super citizen or corporate citizens..
>
> It will work when corporations have a limited time copyright say 15 years
> then it automatically becomes public domain. the problem is not so much
> in organizing citizens,, but in controlling the super citizens who use
> wealth to control the government.
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ...> On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 6:31 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Some way off-beam I've just read that it's men who differ most from
> > chimps genetically - to do with the complexity of the Y chromosome and
> > its influence on sperm production. I tend to hold to such distinction
> > and its irrelevance to public equality.
>
> > I believe, like Vam, that answers can come from more participatory
> > democracy. I also believe that merely asserting this is no answer at
> > all. One can too easily imagine Obama or Palin making the statement.
> > Or some half-assed Bolshevik. Just as allowing people to amass wealth
> > allows them to amass power, the demos can also be scripted power that
> > can be as bad. It's a mistake to make this into a 'faith choice'
> > issue. The usual academic turn at this point is to notions of social
> > contract.
>
> > On Dec 30, 2:54 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I have a feeling that this character, Vam, has usurped all the space
> > > that is there... so that no one else may now be allowed entry !
>
> > > Well, fkrs, there is no limiot to space if you did not know ! So, get
> > > over that excuse.
>
> > > Also I might have taken this conversation into an area you might not
> > > be as comfortable.
> > > Hell, in that case, have the balls to say so !
> > > Females may forgive, not because I used the term but because I do not
> > > know of the term to draw you all in the same order. I hold absolutely
> > > no distinction between genders, if you would believe.
>
> > > On Dec 30, 8:36 am, Edward Mason <masonedward...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Indeed, Vam!
>
> > > > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Gabby... Hunger everywhere is wrong. There is enough food on this
> > > > > planet to feed everyone. But the economics has not made it possible.
> > > > > Even when the law declares...
>
> > > > > Yes, the Supreme Court here ordered the Govt to distribute excess
> > food
> > > > > grains in its silos among the hungry ! But the Minister simply said,
> > "
> > > > > It is not possible."
>
> > > > > And no one was booked, can ever be booked, for causing hunger !
>
> > > > > Rigs... Neil is speaking of the same thing... we all are.
> > > > > ... how to take control of at least the critical aspects of our
> > lives.
>
> > > > > I wish people here could extend this discussion, in thought and idea,
> > > > > and... among other things, become more free, more happy, more self -
> > > > > empowered. So that they end up doing things in that light. Often,
> > > > > almost always, they do not.
>
> > > > > I believe Edward is speaking of the same thing... action in the light
> > > > > of knowledge. Not mere emotions, which economics of the day exploits.
> > > > > And so is Allan, when he uses his " beliefs " for making decisions.
>
> > > > > We are all trying to take more control of our lives.
> > > > > And, bringing it on this platform is BEAUTIFUL.
>
> > > > > On Dec 30, 1:15 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> If the law is not the law but an ass, it explains why in truth
> > there is no
> > > > >> one to blame. If the law is the law than you know it is being set
> > up by
> > > > >> men. The same is true for economics. And you would eventually find
> > someone
> > > > >> to blame.
>
> > > > >> As for your seeds metaphor, it is no coincidence that the children's
> > > > >> interests are not visible in this specific court room or market
> > place. They
> > > > >> are not to be held accountable for what they cannot oversee yet.
> > There are
> > > > >> proofs for that, which have been accepted as such.
>
> > > > >> As for the limitation of science and objectivity, you are right. If
> > one
> > > > >> could get all peer reviewers from the past, the present and the
> > future
> > > > >> together in one room discussing each theory properly, then we'd
> > have it! ;)
>
> > > > >> On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> > "... trees don't exist unless someone observes them."
>
> > > > >> > That's the limitation of science and objectivity. That's why the
> > law
> > > > >> > is an ass. That's how predatory economics has clear toehold in
> > > > >> > society. They all get away because there is no crime committed
> > unless
> > > > >> > one is caught or there are effects to show here and now !
>
> > > > >> > How is one to establish and measure crimes that are seeded... for
> > > > >> > which there are no observers, no complaints... for which there
> > are no
> > > > >> > laws... or for which laws can be extended or interpreted to
> > exclude
> > > > >> > them !
>
> > > > >> > The truth is : There trees galore that are invisible now... in the
> > > > >> > seeds, which will sprout months, years, decades and centuries
> > later !
> > > > >> > Without admitting this fact, we can never hope to tackle climate
> > > > >> > issues, environment and sustainability problems. There is no one
> > > > >> > specific to blame. Much ( e.g. emissions ) is approved and
> > admissible
> > > > >> > as of now, and is not a crime. And, the effects are invariably
> > long -
> > > > >> > term, so there are no objective proofs here and now.
>
> > > > >> > Try presenting theories and results of studies and research in a
> > court
> > > > >> > of law... and they will either be unconvincing or simply countered
> > > > >> > with another of the same !
>
> > > > >> > On Dec 28, 11:14 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> > > That states the issue more or less as I see it rigsy - though I
> > don't
> > > > >> > > do the Xtian thing as religion. It's more that much could be
> > > > >> > > recovered in religion if we could get away from its
> > factionalisms.
> > > > >> > > What gets to me in economics or any form of social science is
> > we seem
> > > > >> > > to forget we are just (or should be) trying to do our best and
> > are
> > > > >> > > making decisions that affect human beings rather than some
> > culture
> > > > >> > > under glass or whatever. I don't want to leap into faith in
> > theory
> > > > >> > > beyond something that retains realistic hope of reasonable
> > equality
> > > > >> > > and freedom for most people.
> > > > >> > > I don't think religion per se can achieve this, but a better
> > > > >> > > understanding of it might help. One can throw up thought
> > experiments
> > > > >> > > - such as whether the unseen tree exists and so on - but people
> > are
> > > > >> > > inclined to forget these are classroom tricks to get some
> > thinking
> > > > >> > > done rather than assertions trees don't exist unless someone
> > observes
> > > > >> > > them. Economists have forgotten their models are thought
> > > > >> > > experiments. Some of the models rely on such stupid notions of
> > human
> > > > >> > > nature as to be risible. Expecting people to behave rationally
> > seems
> > > > >> > > absurd to me given what we know of ourselves as social animals
> > now.
> > > > >> > > What I've seen in a great deal of academic modelling is more or
> > less
> > > > >> > > similar to what Vam (and others) point out as putting something
> > on
> > > > >> > > paper and arguing as though that is all that should be argued
> > when
> > > > >> > > they have, in fact, destroyed context.
>
> > > > >> > > On Dec 28, 5:21 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > > > There has always been a natural system of economics at work
> > in the
> > > > >> > > > world but it has been distorted- it's chief ruination has been
> > > > >> > > > mankind- resulting in predators given an abnormal rein, false
> > terms
> > > > >> > > > such as meritocracy, patriotism, the greater good, etc. I
> > suppose it
> > > > >> > > > boils down to greed and disregard for others plus having no
> > moral
> > > > >> > > > foundation to act as a check and balance. One can trace wars
> > back to
> > > > >> > > > greed as well as count the off-shoots such as envy, etc. It
> > has really
> > > > >> > > > plagued lives and pretty much ruined our American experience
> > with
> > > > >> > > > Democracy. So much for Christ at Christmas! Why not just
> > twist the
> > > > >> > > > greeting to "Merry Merchandise!".
>
> > > > >> > > > On Dec 28, 7:07 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > > > > Hidden at the first level of sceptism above is that most
> > cannot
> > > > >> > reach
> > > > >> > > > > competence even in what we might call the glossary terms of
> > > > >> > economics,
> > > > >> > > > > let lone carry the uncertainty needed for reasonable
> > application. The
> > > > >> > > > > subject makes itself into an elite discipline without
> > requiring its
> > > > >> > > > > elite to submit to a wider notion of the wider evaluation
> > of its
> > > > >> > > > > effects whether intended or not. The main contender for
> > such
> > > > >> > > > > discipline is secular democracy and the will of the
> > people.Lip
> > > > >> > service
> > > > >> > > > > only is pad to this. What is in play is a false ideology of
> > > > >> > > > > "meritocracy
>
> > > > >> > > > > On Dec 28, 5:16 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > > > > > Excellent. Thank you.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > Just waiting for Don's comments.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > On Dec 27, 6:18 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > I used to expect my students to be able to think
> > critically so
> > > > >> > as to
> > > > >> > > > > > > be able to tolerate the ambiguity the models should
> > inspire if
> > > > >> > they
> > > > >> > > > > > > are not taken as gospel. I'd expect my better students
> > to be
> > > > >> > able to
> > > > >> > > > > > > do more than liturgy - a bit like the following:
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > Ten Principles of Responsible Economics
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > 1) In theory, rational people think at the margin.
> > In
>
>
> read more »
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
The last genuine 'audit' in the UK concerned arms dealing with the
vile Saudi regime - Blair personally put a stop to that. Real
evaluation is rare - science is largely about this - and what we get
is performance management - usually a bent system involving juked
statistics. I take it 'Anna' does not mean big brother is the
Orwellian sense!
On Dec 31, 6:40 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Participatory Democracy is about trying to create Audit and Citizen
> Care institutions...
>
> Quite along same lines that modern organisation performance management
> practice verges... 1) Accts, Policy & Process Audit and 2) Customer
> Care, which create the 360 degree path around the Executive / Govt -
> Doing / Performing, How / Targeting and Utilising, and What / WTF is
> being delivered.
>
> And, true, to go beyond writing papers and expressing pious
> thoughts... it has to be fought the Anna Hazare way in India, which
> incidently I found to be better than Occupy Wall Street, in Anna's was
> more defined - he wanted a Law, a statute that had been well worked
> upon and provisioned with anti-graft investigation and govt services
> delivery audit, systems and processes, and unprecedented prosecution
> speed and sentence quantas... all laid out in consultation with the
> public over long.
>
> The Right To Information and Vigilance Commission were others. And the
> autonomous Election Commission before that. The Judiciary alone was
> doing the doing the job. The Comptroller & Audit General used to do an
> excellent job but invariably ignored.
>
> Yeah... institutions, that need to be fought for in the streets
> because the govts, as companies, do not want any meaningful audit,
> much less prosecution for ill doings.
>
> On Dec 31, 12:48 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Participatory Democracy is the answer but the problem is eliminating the
> > super citizen or corporate citizens..
>
> > It will work when corporations have a limited time copyright say 15 years
> > then it automatically becomes public domain. the problem is not so much
> > in organizing citizens,, but in controlling the super citizens who use
> > wealth to control the government.
> > Allan
>
> > On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 6:31 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Some way off-beam I've just read that it's men who differ most from
> > > chimps genetically - to do with the complexity of the Y chromosome and
> > > its influence on sperm production. I tend to hold to such distinction
> > > and its irrelevance to public equality.
>
> > > I believe, like Vam, that answers can come from more participatory
> > > democracy. I also believe that merely asserting this is no answer at
> > > all. One can too easily imagine Obama or Palin making the statement.
> > > Or some half-assed Bolshevik. Just as allowing people to amass wealth
> > > allows them to amass power, the demos can also be scripted power that
> > > can be as bad. It's a mistake to make this into a 'faith choice'
> > > issue. The usual academic turn at this point is to notions of social
> > > contract.
>
> > > On Dec 30, 2:54 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I have a feeling that this character, Vam, has usurped all the space
> > > > that is there... so that no one else may now be allowed entry !
>
> > > > Well, fkrs, there is no limiot to space if you did not know ! So, get
> > > > over that excuse.
>
> > > > Also I might have taken this conversation into an area you might not
> > > > be as comfortable.
> > > > Hell, in that case, have the balls to say so !
> > > > Females may forgive, not because I used the term but because I do not
> > > > know of the term to draw you all in the same order. I hold absolutely
> > > > no distinction between genders, if you would believe.
>
> > > > On Dec 30, 8:36 am, Edward Mason <masonedward...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Indeed, Vam!
>
> > > > > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > Gabby... Hunger everywhere is wrong. There is enough food on this
> > > > > > planet to feed everyone. But the economics has not made it possible.
> > > > > > Even when the law declares...
>
> > > > > > Yes, the Supreme Court here ordered the Govt to distribute excess
> > > food
> > > > > > grains in its silos among the hungry ! But the Minister simply said,
> > > "
> > > > > > It is not possible."
>
> > > > > > And no one was booked, can ever be booked, for causing hunger !
>
> > > > > > Rigs... Neil is speaking of the same thing... we all are.
> > > > > > ... how to take control of at least the critical aspects of our
> > > lives.
>
> > > > > > I wish people here could extend this discussion, in thought and idea,
> > > > > > and... among other things, become more free, more happy, more self -
> > > > > > empowered. So that they end up doing things in that light. Often,
> > > > > > almost always, they do not.
>
> > > > > > I believe Edward is speaking of the same thing... action in the light
> > > > > > of knowledge. Not mere emotions, which economics of the day exploits.
> > > > > > And so is Allan, when he uses his " beliefs " for making decisions.
>
> > > > > > We are all trying to take more control of our lives.
> > > > > > And, bringing it on this platform is BEAUTIFUL.
>
> > > > > > On Dec 30, 1:15 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >> If the law is not the law but an ass, it explains why in truth
> > > there is no
> > > > > >> one to blame. If the law is the law than you know it is being set
> > > up by
> > > > > >> men. The same is true for economics. And you would eventually find
> > > someone
> > > > > >> to blame.
>
> > > > > >> As for your seeds metaphor, it is no coincidence that the children's
> > > > > >> interests are not visible in this specific court room or market
> > > place. They
> > > > > >> are not to be held accountable for what they cannot oversee yet.
> > > There are
> > > > > >> proofs for that, which have been accepted as such.
>
> > > > > >> As for the limitation of science and objectivity, you are right. If
> > > one
> > > > > >> could get all peer reviewers from the past, the present and the
> > > future
> > > > > >> together in one room discussing each theory properly, then we'd
> > > have it! ;)
>
> > > > > >> On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >> > "... trees don't exist unless someone observes them."
>
> > > > > >> > That's the limitation of science and objectivity. That's why the
> > > law
> > > > > >> > is an ass. That's how predatory economics has clear toehold in
> > > > > >> > society. They all get away because there is no crime committed
> > > unless
> > > > > >> > one is caught or there are effects to show here and now !
>
> > > > > >> > How is one to establish and measure crimes that are seeded... for
> > > > > >> > which there are no observers, no complaints... for which there
> > > are no
> > > > > >> > laws... or for which laws can be extended or interpreted to
> > > exclude
> > > > > >> > them !
>
> > > > > >> > The truth is : There trees galore that are invisible now... in the
> > > > > >> > seeds, which will sprout months, years, decades and centuries
> > > later !
> > > > > >> > Without admitting this fact, we can never hope to tackle climate
> > > > > >> > issues, environment and sustainability problems. There is no one
> > > > > >> > specific to blame. Much ( e.g. emissions ) is approved and
> > > admissible
> > > > > >> > as of now, and is not a crime. And, the effects are invariably
> > > long -
> > > > > >> > term, so there are no objective proofs here and now.
>
> > > > > >> > Try presenting theories and results of studies and research in a
> > > court
> > > > > >> > of law... and they will either be unconvincing or simply countered
> > > > > >> > with another of the same !
>
> > > > > >> > On Dec 28, 11:14 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >> > > That states the issue more or less as I see it rigsy - though I
> > > don't
> > > > > >> > > do the Xtian thing as religion. It's more that much could be
> > > > > >> > > recovered in religion if we could get away from its
> > > factionalisms.
> > > > > >> > > What gets to me in economics or any form of social science is
> > > we seem
> > > > > >> > > to forget we are just (or should be) trying to do our best and
> > > are
> > > > > >> > > making decisions that affect human beings rather than some
> > > culture
> > > > > >> > > under glass or whatever. I don't want to leap into faith in
> > > theory
> > > > > >> > > beyond something that retains realistic hope of reasonable
> > > equality
> > > > > >> > > and freedom for most people.
> > > > > >> > > I don't think religion per se can achieve this, but a better
> > > > > >> > > understanding of it might help. One can throw up thought
> > > experiments
> > > > > >> > > - such as whether the unseen tree exists and so on - but people
> > > are
> > > > > >> > > inclined to forget these are classroom tricks to get some
> > > thinking
> > > > > >> > > done rather than assertions trees don't exist unless someone
> > > observes
> > > > > >> > > them. Economists have forgotten their models are thought
> > > > > >> > > experiments. Some of the models rely on such stupid notions of
> > > human
> > > > > >> > > nature as to be risible. Expecting people to behave rationally
> > > seems
> > > > > >> > > absurd to me given what we know of ourselves as social animals
> > > now.
> > > > > >> > > What I've seen in a great deal of academic modelling is more or
> > > less
> > > > > >> > > similar to what Vam (and others) point out as putting something
> > > on
> > > > > >> > > paper and arguing as though that is all that should be argued
> > > when
> > > > > >> > > they have, in fact, destroyed context.
>
> > > > > >> > > On Dec 28, 5:21 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > >> > > > There has always been a natural system of economics at work
> > > in the
> > > > > >> > > > world but it has been distorted- it's chief ruination has been
> > > > > >> > > > mankind- resulting in predators given an abnormal rein, false
> > > terms
> > > > > >> > > > such as meritocracy, patriotism, the greater good, etc. I
> > > suppose it
> > > > > >> > > > boils down to greed and disregard for others plus having no
> > > moral
> > > > > >> > > > foundation to act as a check and balance. One can trace wars
> > > back to
> > > > > >> > > > greed as well as count the off-shoots such as envy, etc. It
>
> ...
>
> read more »
