everlasting.
On Aug 4, 7:41 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I gave up on the Matrix when I realised Nerds thought it neat. Some
> animations are better acted than traditional film and some avatars
> already seem smarter than we manage as a mob. I want Vam to be right
> on some form of simple apprehension, but suspect he isn't in the end.
> Even in Allan's 'play' we can still ask 'what's it all about Alfie'?
> I do 'sense' along your lines Allan.
>
> We can't reach philosophical conclusion of this, but we can turn the
> 'attitude' on normal areas of life like the struggle to earn through
> work and the futility of this as governments spend on wars we can't
> afford and slash wages in a mad scheme that allows money to make money
> rather than rewarding labour. Economics is similarly 'empty' of
> purpose. An old friend is over from the States (we were soldiers) and
> he was bemoaning the collapse of our pub life here. The reason is
> obvious - in 30 years wages have fallen to such a massive extent that
> the bottom 20%, who used to hold 15% of the country's cash at any
> given time, now has less than 1% of it. Being Zombies they haven't
> noticed and are now drinking themselves to death at home on cheap
> cider.
>
> I suppose I suggest there is something of Chomsky in the notion we
> might be Zombies - the same reasoning tends to deconstruct most of our
> cherished institutions. What we lack is some sense of the other side
> of the deconstruction. This is what concerns me - what is belief once
> you know belief is arbitrary? What is in the feeling of despair that
> knowing this can bring? I'm always struck as a scientist that I give
> up easy social and traditional explanation and that this lacks
> something.
>
> On Aug 4, 12:45 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hm, I see the problem, but sustainable knowledge communication has become
> > more flexible even in its firmness compared to the days of truths being
> > written in stone, don't you think? Just watch our new blog culture, everyone
> > can be the scribor of their own script!
>
> > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 12:06 PM, allan deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > > neo to his script
> > > Allan
>
> > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 11:58 AM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> Which hard wiring are you referring to? Neo to Keanu Reeves or Neo to his
> > >> script?
>
> > >> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 8:04 AM, allan deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > >>> the problem with Neo is he is hard wired into the system
> > >>> and dependent on the hard wiring
> > >>> Allan
>
> > >>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 1:05 AM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >>>> How about old Jesus' speed at ascension? Wouldn't he count as
> > >>>> unconstrained by agency at that point in time? Without the being Neo burden,
> > >>>> I mean?
>
> > >>>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 11:30 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >>>>> " If you think you have free will
> > >>>>> because you can choose between varieties of toy and other ADMASS
> > >>>>> drivel then pass on by - free will for me would concern beating
> > >>>>> Einstein's speed of light and its constrictions - but even then I
> > >>>>> would not know I was free rather than selecting from pre-programmed
> > >>>>> alternatives or being switched."
>
> > >>>>> Are you still identified with Neo, in Matrix ?
>
> > >>>>> What has free will to do with anything concerning Einstein or speed of
> > >>>>> light ?
> > >>>>> I find the association demented.
>
> > >>>>> How is free will, the exercise of choice, in a toy shop any different
> > >>>>> from the same in any other situation ?
>
> > >>>>> The Wiki says : Free will is the apparent ability of agents to make
> > >>>>> choices free from certain kinds of constraints. Isn't it what you are
> > >>>>> speaking of ?
>
> > >>>>> On Aug 3, 5:34 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>> > Much wise in what you say RP and indeed, Orn, many believe they have
> > >>>>> > no dreams at all. I note Polkid is beginning his serial killer trip.
> > >>>>> > I'm not very keen on these tricky questions we can't answer but can
> > >>>>> > use to expose naive and unexamined lives. I went on a long walk with
> > >>>>> > some old colleagues who moved into brain science some years back and
> > >>>>> > it was noticeable that they are all more convinced free will does not
> > >>>>> > exist than I. Humankind seems generally pathetic against the
> > >>>>> vastness
> > >>>>> > we seem to have some awareness of and nothing is given to us as to
> > >>>>> > what to do
>
> > >>>>> > I have little interest in pursuing the question of free will - in
> > >>>>> > normal dialogue of words, concepts, shapes and patterns I see no end
> > >>>>> > to it and many sides. Humankind does little in any of this as far as
> > >>>>> > we can guess and has no direction on what to seek to achieve we can
> > >>>>> > guess. We may know more in the future, but also may not be the
> > >>>>> > future. We accede to five senses, though 20 may be more accurate and
> > >>>>> > at least 2 more are known in dolphins than we possess. I can tell a
> > >>>>> > story of cooling hydrogen molecules and H3+ in the forming of stars
> > >>>>> > which were our birth that suggest some form of 'shaping knowledge'
> > >>>>> > even in the inorganic and the tale of the most, that that must be but
> > >>>>> > which we cannot see and yet I can only describe my own free will in
> > >>>>> > comparison with uninspiring robots. Some god might unplug us at any
> > >>>>> > time.
> > >>>>> > Much of the brain science going on finds that human beings do not
> > >>>>> make
> > >>>>> > rational decisions. I suspect they may have been wasting their
> > >>>>> > electrodes, as most of us are so poor at critical reasoning it
> > >>>>> > wouldn't make sense for us to use it. We may not be far off a robot
> > >>>>> > programmed with emotional responses that match or exceed our own. I
> > >>>>> > believe most people are tranced and cannot think their way out of a
> > >>>>> > wet paper bag. This is not unusual in pack and herd conditions.This
> > >>>>> > is a biological trance in my view.
> > >>>>> > For me there has to be more than the striving of science and I don't
> > >>>>> > want this to be a religious crock. If you think you have free will
> > >>>>> > because you can choose between varieties of toy and other ADMASS
> > >>>>> > drivel then pass on by - free will for me would concern beating
> > >>>>> > Einstein's speed of light and its constrictions - but even then I
> > >>>>> > would not know I was free rather than selecting from pre-programmed
> > >>>>> > alternatives or being switched.
> > >>>>> > The questions come after this 'indecision' as do those of what is
> > >>>>> > observing and its picture.
>
> > >>>>> > On Aug 2, 10:59 pm, "pol.science kid" <r.freeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >>>>> > > i killed a dog.. my zombieness made me do it....
>
> > >>>>> > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 11:21 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>> > > > "We have access to a technology that would have looked like
> > >>>>> sorcery in
> > >>>>> > > > Descartes's day: the ability to peer inside someone's head and
> > >>>>> read
> > >>>>> > > > their thoughts. Unfortunately, that doesn't take us any nearer to
> > >>>>> > > > knowing whether they are sentient. "Even if you measure
> > >>>>> brainwaves,
> > >>>>> > > > you can never know exactly what experience they represent," says
> > >>>>> > > > psychologist Bruce Hood at the University of Bristol, UK. If
> > >>>>> > > > anything, brain scanning has undermined Descartes's maxim. You,
> > >>>>> too,
> > >>>>> > > > might be a zombie. "I happen to be one myself," says Stanford
> > >>>>> > > > University philosopher Paul Skokowski. "And so, even if you don't
> > >>>>> > > > realise it, are you." Skokowski's assertion is based on the
> > >>>>> belief,
> > >>>>> > > > particularly common among neuroscientists who study brain scans,
> > >>>>> that
> > >>>>> > > > we do not have free will. There is no ghost in the machine; our
> > >>>>> > > > actions are driven by brain states that lie entirely beyond our
> > >>>>> > > > control. "I think, therefore I am" might be an illusion.
> > >>>>> > > > So, it may well be that you live in a computer simulation in
> > >>>>> which you
> > >>>>> > > > are the only self-aware creature. I could well be a zombie and so
> > >>>>> > > > could you. Have an interesting day." (from a recent New
> > >>>>> Scientist)
>
> > >>>>> > > > We range over debates in free will and what it is to be human. So
> > >>>>> far
> > >>>>> > > > we haven't established free will or even that we are not merely
> > >>>>> > > > avatars in 'something else's game'.
>
> > >>>>> > > > I wonder whether there are advantages in considering ourselves as
> > >>>>> > > > creatures limited by programming and also capable of it?
>
> > >>>>> > > --
> > >>>>> > > EverComing
>
> > >>> --
> > >>> (
> > >>> )
> > >>> I_D Allan
>
> > >>> If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
> > >>> Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
>
> > > --
> > > (
> > > )
> > > I_D Allan
>
> > > If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
> > > Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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