animations are better acted than traditional film and some avatars
already seem smarter than we manage as a mob. I want Vam to be right
on some form of simple apprehension, but suspect he isn't in the end.
Even in Allan's 'play' we can still ask 'what's it all about Alfie'?
I do 'sense' along your lines Allan.
We can't reach philosophical conclusion of this, but we can turn the
'attitude' on normal areas of life like the struggle to earn through
work and the futility of this as governments spend on wars we can't
afford and slash wages in a mad scheme that allows money to make money
rather than rewarding labour. Economics is similarly 'empty' of
purpose. An old friend is over from the States (we were soldiers) and
he was bemoaning the collapse of our pub life here. The reason is
obvious - in 30 years wages have fallen to such a massive extent that
the bottom 20%, who used to hold 15% of the country's cash at any
given time, now has less than 1% of it. Being Zombies they haven't
noticed and are now drinking themselves to death at home on cheap
cider.
I suppose I suggest there is something of Chomsky in the notion we
might be Zombies - the same reasoning tends to deconstruct most of our
cherished institutions. What we lack is some sense of the other side
of the deconstruction. This is what concerns me - what is belief once
you know belief is arbitrary? What is in the feeling of despair that
knowing this can bring? I'm always struck as a scientist that I give
up easy social and traditional explanation and that this lacks
something.
On Aug 4, 12:45 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hm, I see the problem, but sustainable knowledge communication has become
> more flexible even in its firmness compared to the days of truths being
> written in stone, don't you think? Just watch our new blog culture, everyone
> can be the scribor of their own script!
>
> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 12:06 PM, allan deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > neo to his script
> > Allan
>
> > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 11:58 AM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Which hard wiring are you referring to? Neo to Keanu Reeves or Neo to his
> >> script?
>
> >> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 8:04 AM, allan deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>> the problem with Neo is he is hard wired into the system
> >>> and dependent on the hard wiring
> >>> Allan
>
> >>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 1:05 AM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> How about old Jesus' speed at ascension? Wouldn't he count as
> >>>> unconstrained by agency at that point in time? Without the being Neo burden,
> >>>> I mean?
>
> >>>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 11:30 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> " If you think you have free will
> >>>>> because you can choose between varieties of toy and other ADMASS
> >>>>> drivel then pass on by - free will for me would concern beating
> >>>>> Einstein's speed of light and its constrictions - but even then I
> >>>>> would not know I was free rather than selecting from pre-programmed
> >>>>> alternatives or being switched."
>
> >>>>> Are you still identified with Neo, in Matrix ?
>
> >>>>> What has free will to do with anything concerning Einstein or speed of
> >>>>> light ?
> >>>>> I find the association demented.
>
> >>>>> How is free will, the exercise of choice, in a toy shop any different
> >>>>> from the same in any other situation ?
>
> >>>>> The Wiki says : Free will is the apparent ability of agents to make
> >>>>> choices free from certain kinds of constraints. Isn't it what you are
> >>>>> speaking of ?
>
> >>>>> On Aug 3, 5:34 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> > Much wise in what you say RP and indeed, Orn, many believe they have
> >>>>> > no dreams at all. I note Polkid is beginning his serial killer trip.
> >>>>> > I'm not very keen on these tricky questions we can't answer but can
> >>>>> > use to expose naive and unexamined lives. I went on a long walk with
> >>>>> > some old colleagues who moved into brain science some years back and
> >>>>> > it was noticeable that they are all more convinced free will does not
> >>>>> > exist than I. Humankind seems generally pathetic against the
> >>>>> vastness
> >>>>> > we seem to have some awareness of and nothing is given to us as to
> >>>>> > what to do
>
> >>>>> > I have little interest in pursuing the question of free will - in
> >>>>> > normal dialogue of words, concepts, shapes and patterns I see no end
> >>>>> > to it and many sides. Humankind does little in any of this as far as
> >>>>> > we can guess and has no direction on what to seek to achieve we can
> >>>>> > guess. We may know more in the future, but also may not be the
> >>>>> > future. We accede to five senses, though 20 may be more accurate and
> >>>>> > at least 2 more are known in dolphins than we possess. I can tell a
> >>>>> > story of cooling hydrogen molecules and H3+ in the forming of stars
> >>>>> > which were our birth that suggest some form of 'shaping knowledge'
> >>>>> > even in the inorganic and the tale of the most, that that must be but
> >>>>> > which we cannot see and yet I can only describe my own free will in
> >>>>> > comparison with uninspiring robots. Some god might unplug us at any
> >>>>> > time.
> >>>>> > Much of the brain science going on finds that human beings do not
> >>>>> make
> >>>>> > rational decisions. I suspect they may have been wasting their
> >>>>> > electrodes, as most of us are so poor at critical reasoning it
> >>>>> > wouldn't make sense for us to use it. We may not be far off a robot
> >>>>> > programmed with emotional responses that match or exceed our own. I
> >>>>> > believe most people are tranced and cannot think their way out of a
> >>>>> > wet paper bag. This is not unusual in pack and herd conditions.This
> >>>>> > is a biological trance in my view.
> >>>>> > For me there has to be more than the striving of science and I don't
> >>>>> > want this to be a religious crock. If you think you have free will
> >>>>> > because you can choose between varieties of toy and other ADMASS
> >>>>> > drivel then pass on by - free will for me would concern beating
> >>>>> > Einstein's speed of light and its constrictions - but even then I
> >>>>> > would not know I was free rather than selecting from pre-programmed
> >>>>> > alternatives or being switched.
> >>>>> > The questions come after this 'indecision' as do those of what is
> >>>>> > observing and its picture.
>
> >>>>> > On Aug 2, 10:59 pm, "pol.science kid" <r.freeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> > > i killed a dog.. my zombieness made me do it....
>
> >>>>> > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 11:21 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>> > > > "We have access to a technology that would have looked like
> >>>>> sorcery in
> >>>>> > > > Descartes's day: the ability to peer inside someone's head and
> >>>>> read
> >>>>> > > > their thoughts. Unfortunately, that doesn't take us any nearer to
> >>>>> > > > knowing whether they are sentient. "Even if you measure
> >>>>> brainwaves,
> >>>>> > > > you can never know exactly what experience they represent," says
> >>>>> > > > psychologist Bruce Hood at the University of Bristol, UK. If
> >>>>> > > > anything, brain scanning has undermined Descartes's maxim. You,
> >>>>> too,
> >>>>> > > > might be a zombie. "I happen to be one myself," says Stanford
> >>>>> > > > University philosopher Paul Skokowski. "And so, even if you don't
> >>>>> > > > realise it, are you." Skokowski's assertion is based on the
> >>>>> belief,
> >>>>> > > > particularly common among neuroscientists who study brain scans,
> >>>>> that
> >>>>> > > > we do not have free will. There is no ghost in the machine; our
> >>>>> > > > actions are driven by brain states that lie entirely beyond our
> >>>>> > > > control. "I think, therefore I am" might be an illusion.
> >>>>> > > > So, it may well be that you live in a computer simulation in
> >>>>> which you
> >>>>> > > > are the only self-aware creature. I could well be a zombie and so
> >>>>> > > > could you. Have an interesting day." (from a recent New
> >>>>> Scientist)
>
> >>>>> > > > We range over debates in free will and what it is to be human. So
> >>>>> far
> >>>>> > > > we haven't established free will or even that we are not merely
> >>>>> > > > avatars in 'something else's game'.
>
> >>>>> > > > I wonder whether there are advantages in considering ourselves as
> >>>>> > > > creatures limited by programming and also capable of it?
>
> >>>>> > > --
> >>>>> > > EverComing
>
> >>> --
> >>> (
> >>> )
> >>> I_D Allan
>
> >>> If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
> >>> Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
>
> > --
> > (
> > )
> > I_D Allan
>
> > If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
> > Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
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