Allan
--
(
-- (
)
|_D Allan
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
I am a Natural Airgunner -
Full of Hot Air & Ready To Expel It Quickly.
Sunday, September 30, 2012
Mind's Eye different
My cousin put this on face book ,, it is not often I see something this interesting.
Re: Mind's Eye UFO's: Fact or Fantasy?
I do feel better it seem it takes longer to recover though I am greatful the one before the last one was a year and half ago.
Now of I could get rid of weird dreams... Tonights was a pelican up chucking a live cat with physical side effects.. Did manage to write it down.
The only religion part of the discussion is my personal belief that the entirety universe is physically made up of God as I understand him.
Allan
On Oct 1, 2012 5:41 AM, "James" <ashkashal@gmail.com> wrote:
-- I am left outside science and religion on this Allan, perhaps we have some of that in common. Sending complex biological organisms through interstellar space doesn't sound efficient if there are any alternatives. Going up the spectrum of biotech advancements at some unknown point a species might be able to choose not just the technological method but innovate the medium of transport itself.
Perhaps they would kindly drop me a mental note explaining why determinism is accurate, except when it is not, and how that could make any sense. Perhaps another medium is atemporal, but we are rooted here and now. What part of us could possibly lie outside the massive barriers of physics, I'm still looking for answers myself. What I see as plain and common as gravity leads me right here feeling dumb as a box of rocks.
Purpose is a frightening notion.. I don't resent that some have found answers so much as it seems people latch on answers for security, maybe I'll demand my dog to tell me what 6*7 is tomorrow. ;-) Hope your recovery is going well Allan, you are sounding better.
Yikes, belated welcome to the group Bill!
On 9/28/2012 10:27 PM, Allan H wrote:
Why can not our or for that matter any other alien body else where be
.nothing more than a vehicle for the soul?
Allan
On Sep 29, 2012 3:17 AM, "archytas" <nwterry@gmail.com
<mailto:nwterry@gmail.com>> wrote:
It strikes me Bill that UFO stories and thinking about the future and
better places (heaven etc) can be part of science. We have no answers
to what we are doing here other than speculation. I tend to think the
economic world is religiously organised as a control fraud - this
aspect of religion bothers me a lot and the spiritual does not.
Reporting in UFOs (and such matters as spontaneous human combustion)
is so naff I can't get interested.
We would generally wonder why we don't know human and cosmic purpose
and consider this a disadvantage hard to imagine a benevolent creator
giving us. The Spartans, at least in myth, sent their male kids out
to cope in the wild. It would be good if mum and dad turned up in a
space-ship with an explanation.
On 28 Sep, 22:33, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com
<mailto:nwte...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> We live on a hill between two rivers Allan. The town here
floods, but
> its such a dump now we don't go there. The weather in NW England is
> pretty bad generally, but this has been a very bad summer as opposed
> to standardly bad. I'm off to the dog track at Belle Vue on Saturday
> night - just for a daft night out. I expect a few 'alien runners'
> there!
>
> If there is intelligent life elsewhere I expect they won't be animal
> like us. Evolution is red in tooth and claw in part, but also about
> cooperation and Borg-like integration of species. Whilst I see mind
> as a lot to do with brain processing, evidence mounts that this is
> only part of the story - some ants that are enslaved now act in
> rebellion against there masters with no 'hope' of improving their own
> individual condition, presumably on behalf of the rest of their
> species. I expect aliens to be able to be able to do the Borg thing
> and make use of what is biologically and technically available to
make
> themselves and not be stuck with our lusts for reproduction. My
guess
> is such assimilation would not be to dominate or produce 'drones'.
>
> On he speed of light we know it depends on the medium it is
travelling
> in, slowing to about bicycle speed in a Bose-Einstein condensate,
> almost stopping in such and emerging as a matter wave. If gravity
> exists we don't know how fast it travels or how fast space expands.
> The issue of quantum stuff like instantaneous knowing in wave
equation
> systems in which the bits 'know' each other remains.
>
> Other species are nw only with us in assimilation or history and our
> fate may be little more. We are only special in made-up stories of
> god, origin and heroes we know are trash. One of my questions about
> robot heaven or advanced inter-galactic society is why anyone would
> risk human beings spoiling it!
>
> On 28 Sep, 13:28, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com
<mailto:rigs...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > What about the Elysian Fields for fallen heroes and the blessed-
> > mentioned in the Odyssey and Aeneid? I worry about the
non-heroes and
> > esp. those who are massacred and dumped in a pit or potter's grave
> > with no ceremony. But I do agree, we dabble in heaven and hell
during
> > our lifetimes. For instance, a bad marriage is compared to Hell-
> > true! :-) A sensory delight of the flesh or palate is compared to
> > Heaven. The afterlife was popular in early Christianity to give the
> > poor hope but later you could buy your way into heaven with
> > indulgences and the guilt remains, perhaps, with charities and
> > volunteerism. I have a more practical view but let's face it-
people
> > want easy answers, easy fixes/exits.
>
> > On Sep 28, 12:17 am, William L Houts <luka...@gmail.com
<mailto:luka...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> > > I wonder if humans do dream of uncorrupted worlds, in
general. You'd
> > > think that would be universal, and it does seem to be borne
out by
> > > Western mythologies, with some exceptions. For instance, the
Greeks had
> > > Olympus, but except for Heracles no one got to go there;
everyone else
> > > went to Hades, which was gloomy and boring if you were lucky
enough to
> > > land there in general population, and terrifying if the gods
put you in
> > > Tartarus. And the Romans didn't seem to place faith in any
sort of
> > > afterlife at all, which is one of the main reasons
whyChristianity sold
> > > like hotcakes. Eastern religions such as Buddhism had
various hells and
> > > heavens, but they were sort of besides the point: your karma
is / was
> > > supposed to boil down to nothing and liberate you from the
Wheel of
> > > Rebirth, which was supposed to put you in Nirvana, which was
less a
> > > Heaven than it was a Nowhere. And Taoism doesn't have much to
say about
> > > heavenly afterworlds; its whole point is to make this world
more just
> > > and balanced and leaves heavens to the individual to figure out.
>
> > > But as to your question of whether humans long for
uncorrupted worlds, I
> > > think that besides the Abrahamic religions noone takes them very
> > > seriously. And I think they've got a point: I mean, if
you're taking
> > > your present existence at all seriously, then just what is an
afterlife
> > > supposed to be about? Are we supposed to be eating bonbons
all day and
> > > living in some version of American luxury? I'd like to
believe in
> > > Heaven --which for me looks like a kind of liberal college
town, with
> > > libraries and funky old cinema houses-- but all of that seems
kind of
> > > empty if there's no gravitas, no seriousness. Without
death, without a
> > > final marker which howls at us, Do what you must do NOW and
die knowing
> > > that you've used your life well--without that, I think heaven
would
> > > become kind of slouchy and boring, or worse. Unless, of
course, what's
> > > waiting for us on the other side is something superrational but
> > > beautiful, like being absorbed into the godhead, if such
there be.
>
> > > So in answer to your question, I think we do dream of
uncorrupt worlds,
> > > but if we examine them too closely, they tend to be bustable soap
> > > bubbles. And maybe I lack imagination, but I wonder, how
could it be any
> > > other way? Frankly, I'd like to be told how. I sound
sensible about all
> > > of this if a little pessimistic, but in reality I'm a scared
ex-Catholic
> > > who is terrified of death and wants to solve the Big
Question before
> > > they're performing Last Rites on his sorry ass.
>
> > > --Bill
>
> > > On 9/27/2012 7:20 PM, rigsy03 wrote:
>
> > > > I wonder where you put the mythological and religious
other-worldlies-
> > > > from gods to guardian angels, etc.? Or the construct of Dante's
> > > > "Divine Comedy", for instance. Do humans long for
uncorrupted worlds?
>
> > > > On Sep 27, 6:23 pm, William L Houts <luka...@gmail.com
<mailto:luka...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > >> I'm with the pragmatists on the question of intelligent
alien species.
> > > >> Many scientists who speculate on this sort of thing
--though there
> > > >> really aren't that many of them-- say that such species
wouldn't
> > > >> resemble anything so comforting as a humanoid physiology,
but I think
> > > >> they're partly mistaken. Surely there would be surprises
in the way
> > > >> nature cooks up life on other planets with radically different
> > > >> chemistries than our dear old Mama Earth. But I think
there's reason to
> > > >> suppose that many alien species would resemble us. After
all, any
> > > >> species we might imagine has to cope with gravity as it
evolves. So
> > > >> they're much more likely to evolve some form of locomotion
which
> > > >> involves two, four or six pedal extremities (as Fats
Waller calls them)
> > > >> rather than three or five: even-numbered legs are less
wobbly and more
> > > >> amenable to balanced movement which consumes fewer
calories. . Also,
> > > >> sense organs like eyes and ears are likely to be located
in or close to
> > > >> a head, as there is survival value in having sense organs
located close
> > > >> to a brain, or whatever such species might use for brains.
Finally,
> > > >> everyone in the cosmos requires energy to get going, so
they're either
> > > >> going to evolve photosynthesis and take their energy
directly from their
> > > >> sun or suns, or they're going to take their sunbeams
indirectly by
> > > >> consuming something lower in the food chain. I'm sure
there are lots of
> > > >> evolution pathways I'm leaving out, seeing as I'm a
curious poet rather
> > > >> than a serious scientist type of guy, but I think these
notions are, as
> > > >> Allan named other ideas of mine, sensible provisos.
>
> > > >> PS. I left out centipedes and millipedes with their
scores of legs, but
> > > >> I think y'all's get what I'm saying here.
>
> > > >> --Bill
>
> > > >> On 9/27/2012 3:57 PM, archytas wrote:
>
> > > >>> I haven't seen any UFOs and tend not to be much
interested in people
> > > >>> who claim to have - at least without Bill's sensible
provisos. The
> > > >>> speed of thought as a brain process is slower than
light-speed - but
> > > >>> then I'm basically a tropical fish realist. I'd have a
bet that no
> > > >>> one in this group would really have much of a definition
of light-
> > > >>> speed and the Ricel curvature tensor, Euler Langrangian
and the rest
> > > >>> of Einstein's field equations. I mean no offence and
don't do much of
> > > >>> this science myself.
> > > >>> If you point out to a physicist that the people from the
future who
> > > >>> have invented the time machine are in extraordinarily
short supply in
> > > >>> our present he may come up with some mathematical guff on
the shape of
> > > >>> the universe that explains this or makes time travel only
possible to
> > > >>> the future. I have seen demons - plodding back to camp
after a week's
> > > >>> endurance exercise with no food for two days I was
visually convinced
> > > >>> the sentries were vampires but still asked them where the
Naffi was.
> > > >>> My guess is that we travel through space as primitive
life-forms with
> > > >>> evolution built-in and waiting to unfold. We may thus
have come from
> > > >>> a much more advanced civilisation than ours bound by the
speed of
> > > >>> light, capable of the biological engineering but not
space-flight much
> > > >>> more advanced than our own. Calculations give 28 years
as the time to
> > > >>> reach the edge of the known universe - but this is the
time inside the
> > > >>> ship accelerating to near light speed fairly slowly.
Space is not
> > > >>> friction free and it's doubtful we or our instruments
could take the
> > > >>> radiation of light-speed flight.
> > > >>> I rather hope there are some nice, genuinely civilised
aliens thinking
> > > >>> of coming here. In my speculation, intelligent life
tends to worry
> > > >>> about food chains led by apes as these have been
notoriously war-like.
> > > >>> I'm into bees and ants rather than UFOs at the moment.
Bees use
> > > >>> 'pharma' to combat fungal infections. Ants take slaves -
killing the
> > > >>> adults of another species and
>
> ...
>
> read more »
--
--
--
Re: Mind's Eye UFO's: Fact or Fantasy?
I am left outside science and religion on this Allan, perhaps we have
some of that in common. Sending complex biological organisms through
interstellar space doesn't sound efficient if there are any
alternatives. Going up the spectrum of biotech advancements at some
unknown point a species might be able to choose not just the
technological method but innovate the medium of transport itself.
Perhaps they would kindly drop me a mental note explaining why
determinism is accurate, except when it is not, and how that could make
any sense. Perhaps another medium is atemporal, but we are rooted here
and now. What part of us could possibly lie outside the massive barriers
of physics, I'm still looking for answers myself. What I see as plain
and common as gravity leads me right here feeling dumb as a box of rocks.
Purpose is a frightening notion.. I don't resent that some have found
answers so much as it seems people latch on answers for security, maybe
I'll demand my dog to tell me what 6*7 is tomorrow. ;-) Hope your
recovery is going well Allan, you are sounding better.
Yikes, belated welcome to the group Bill!
On 9/28/2012 10:27 PM, Allan H wrote:
> Why can not our or for that matter any other alien body else where be
> .nothing more than a vehicle for the soul?
> Allan
>
> On Sep 29, 2012 3:17 AM, "archytas" <nwterry@gmail.com
> <mailto:nwterry@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> It strikes me Bill that UFO stories and thinking about the future and
> better places (heaven etc) can be part of science. We have no answers
> to what we are doing here other than speculation. I tend to think the
> economic world is religiously organised as a control fraud - this
> aspect of religion bothers me a lot and the spiritual does not.
> Reporting in UFOs (and such matters as spontaneous human combustion)
> is so naff I can't get interested.
>
> We would generally wonder why we don't know human and cosmic purpose
> and consider this a disadvantage hard to imagine a benevolent creator
> giving us. The Spartans, at least in myth, sent their male kids out
> to cope in the wild. It would be good if mum and dad turned up in a
> space-ship with an explanation.
>
> On 28 Sep, 22:33, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com
> <mailto:nwte...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > We live on a hill between two rivers Allan. The town here
> floods, but
> > its such a dump now we don't go there. The weather in NW England is
> > pretty bad generally, but this has been a very bad summer as opposed
> > to standardly bad. I'm off to the dog track at Belle Vue on Saturday
> > night - just for a daft night out. I expect a few 'alien runners'
> > there!
> >
> > If there is intelligent life elsewhere I expect they won't be animal
> > like us. Evolution is red in tooth and claw in part, but also about
> > cooperation and Borg-like integration of species. Whilst I see mind
> > as a lot to do with brain processing, evidence mounts that this is
> > only part of the story - some ants that are enslaved now act in
> > rebellion against there masters with no 'hope' of improving their own
> > individual condition, presumably on behalf of the rest of their
> > species. I expect aliens to be able to be able to do the Borg thing
> > and make use of what is biologically and technically available to
> make
> > themselves and not be stuck with our lusts for reproduction. My
> guess
> > is such assimilation would not be to dominate or produce 'drones'.
> >
> > On he speed of light we know it depends on the medium it is
> travelling
> > in, slowing to about bicycle speed in a Bose-Einstein condensate,
> > almost stopping in such and emerging as a matter wave. If gravity
> > exists we don't know how fast it travels or how fast space expands.
> > The issue of quantum stuff like instantaneous knowing in wave
> equation
> > systems in which the bits 'know' each other remains.
> >
> > Other species are nw only with us in assimilation or history and our
> > fate may be little more. We are only special in made-up stories of
> > god, origin and heroes we know are trash. One of my questions about
> > robot heaven or advanced inter-galactic society is why anyone would
> > risk human beings spoiling it!
> >
> > On 28 Sep, 13:28, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com
> <mailto:rigs...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > What about the Elysian Fields for fallen heroes and the blessed-
> > > mentioned in the Odyssey and Aeneid? I worry about the
> non-heroes and
> > > esp. those who are massacred and dumped in a pit or potter's grave
> > > with no ceremony. But I do agree, we dabble in heaven and hell
> during
> > > our lifetimes. For instance, a bad marriage is compared to Hell-
> > > true! :-) A sensory delight of the flesh or palate is compared to
> > > Heaven. The afterlife was popular in early Christianity to give the
> > > poor hope but later you could buy your way into heaven with
> > > indulgences and the guilt remains, perhaps, with charities and
> > > volunteerism. I have a more practical view but let's face it-
> people
> > > want easy answers, easy fixes/exits.
> >
> > > On Sep 28, 12:17 am, William L Houts <luka...@gmail.com
> <mailto:luka...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > > > I wonder if humans do dream of uncorrupted worlds, in
> general. You'd
> > > > think that would be universal, and it does seem to be borne
> out by
> > > > Western mythologies, with some exceptions. For instance, the
> Greeks had
> > > > Olympus, but except for Heracles no one got to go there;
> everyone else
> > > > went to Hades, which was gloomy and boring if you were lucky
> enough to
> > > > land there in general population, and terrifying if the gods
> put you in
> > > > Tartarus. And the Romans didn't seem to place faith in any
> sort of
> > > > afterlife at all, which is one of the main reasons
> whyChristianity sold
> > > > like hotcakes. Eastern religions such as Buddhism had
> various hells and
> > > > heavens, but they were sort of besides the point: your karma
> is / was
> > > > supposed to boil down to nothing and liberate you from the
> Wheel of
> > > > Rebirth, which was supposed to put you in Nirvana, which was
> less a
> > > > Heaven than it was a Nowhere. And Taoism doesn't have much to
> say about
> > > > heavenly afterworlds; its whole point is to make this world
> more just
> > > > and balanced and leaves heavens to the individual to figure out.
> >
> > > > But as to your question of whether humans long for
> uncorrupted worlds, I
> > > > think that besides the Abrahamic religions noone takes them very
> > > > seriously. And I think they've got a point: I mean, if
> you're taking
> > > > your present existence at all seriously, then just what is an
> afterlife
> > > > supposed to be about? Are we supposed to be eating bonbons
> all day and
> > > > living in some version of American luxury? I'd like to
> believe in
> > > > Heaven --which for me looks like a kind of liberal college
> town, with
> > > > libraries and funky old cinema houses-- but all of that seems
> kind of
> > > > empty if there's no gravitas, no seriousness. Without
> death, without a
> > > > final marker which howls at us, Do what you must do NOW and
> die knowing
> > > > that you've used your life well--without that, I think heaven
> would
> > > > become kind of slouchy and boring, or worse. Unless, of
> course, what's
> > > > waiting for us on the other side is something superrational but
> > > > beautiful, like being absorbed into the godhead, if such
> there be.
> >
> > > > So in answer to your question, I think we do dream of
> uncorrupt worlds,
> > > > but if we examine them too closely, they tend to be bustable soap
> > > > bubbles. And maybe I lack imagination, but I wonder, how
> could it be any
> > > > other way? Frankly, I'd like to be told how. I sound
> sensible about all
> > > > of this if a little pessimistic, but in reality I'm a scared
> ex-Catholic
> > > > who is terrified of death and wants to solve the Big
> Question before
> > > > they're performing Last Rites on his sorry ass.
> >
> > > > --Bill
> >
> > > > On 9/27/2012 7:20 PM, rigsy03 wrote:
> >
> > > > > I wonder where you put the mythological and religious
> other-worldlies-
> > > > > from gods to guardian angels, etc.? Or the construct of Dante's
> > > > > "Divine Comedy", for instance. Do humans long for
> uncorrupted worlds?
> >
> > > > > On Sep 27, 6:23 pm, William L Houts <luka...@gmail.com
> <mailto:luka...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > > >> I'm with the pragmatists on the question of intelligent
> alien species.
> > > > >> Many scientists who speculate on this sort of thing
> --though there
> > > > >> really aren't that many of them-- say that such species
> wouldn't
> > > > >> resemble anything so comforting as a humanoid physiology,
> but I think
> > > > >> they're partly mistaken. Surely there would be surprises
> in the way
> > > > >> nature cooks up life on other planets with radically different
> > > > >> chemistries than our dear old Mama Earth. But I think
> there's reason to
> > > > >> suppose that many alien species would resemble us. After
> all, any
> > > > >> species we might imagine has to cope with gravity as it
> evolves. So
> > > > >> they're much more likely to evolve some form of locomotion
> which
> > > > >> involves two, four or six pedal extremities (as Fats
> Waller calls them)
> > > > >> rather than three or five: even-numbered legs are less
> wobbly and more
> > > > >> amenable to balanced movement which consumes fewer
> calories. . Also,
> > > > >> sense organs like eyes and ears are likely to be located
> in or close to
> > > > >> a head, as there is survival value in having sense organs
> located close
> > > > >> to a brain, or whatever such species might use for brains.
> Finally,
> > > > >> everyone in the cosmos requires energy to get going, so
> they're either
> > > > >> going to evolve photosynthesis and take their energy
> directly from their
> > > > >> sun or suns, or they're going to take their sunbeams
> indirectly by
> > > > >> consuming something lower in the food chain. I'm sure
> there are lots of
> > > > >> evolution pathways I'm leaving out, seeing as I'm a
> curious poet rather
> > > > >> than a serious scientist type of guy, but I think these
> notions are, as
> > > > >> Allan named other ideas of mine, sensible provisos.
> >
> > > > >> PS. I left out centipedes and millipedes with their
> scores of legs, but
> > > > >> I think y'all's get what I'm saying here.
> >
> > > > >> --Bill
> >
> > > > >> On 9/27/2012 3:57 PM, archytas wrote:
> >
> > > > >>> I haven't seen any UFOs and tend not to be much
> interested in people
> > > > >>> who claim to have - at least without Bill's sensible
> provisos. The
> > > > >>> speed of thought as a brain process is slower than
> light-speed - but
> > > > >>> then I'm basically a tropical fish realist. I'd have a
> bet that no
> > > > >>> one in this group would really have much of a definition
> of light-
> > > > >>> speed and the Ricel curvature tensor, Euler Langrangian
> and the rest
> > > > >>> of Einstein's field equations. I mean no offence and
> don't do much of
> > > > >>> this science myself.
> > > > >>> If you point out to a physicist that the people from the
> future who
> > > > >>> have invented the time machine are in extraordinarily
> short supply in
> > > > >>> our present he may come up with some mathematical guff on
> the shape of
> > > > >>> the universe that explains this or makes time travel only
> possible to
> > > > >>> the future. I have seen demons - plodding back to camp
> after a week's
> > > > >>> endurance exercise with no food for two days I was
> visually convinced
> > > > >>> the sentries were vampires but still asked them where the
> Naffi was.
> > > > >>> My guess is that we travel through space as primitive
> life-forms with
> > > > >>> evolution built-in and waiting to unfold. We may thus
> have come from
> > > > >>> a much more advanced civilisation than ours bound by the
> speed of
> > > > >>> light, capable of the biological engineering but not
> space-flight much
> > > > >>> more advanced than our own. Calculations give 28 years
> as the time to
> > > > >>> reach the edge of the known universe - but this is the
> time inside the
> > > > >>> ship accelerating to near light speed fairly slowly.
> Space is not
> > > > >>> friction free and it's doubtful we or our instruments
> could take the
> > > > >>> radiation of light-speed flight.
> > > > >>> I rather hope there are some nice, genuinely civilised
> aliens thinking
> > > > >>> of coming here. In my speculation, intelligent life
> tends to worry
> > > > >>> about food chains led by apes as these have been
> notoriously war-like.
> > > > >>> I'm into bees and ants rather than UFOs at the moment.
> Bees use
> > > > >>> 'pharma' to combat fungal infections. Ants take slaves -
> killing the
> > > > >>> adults of another species and
> >
> > ...
> >
> > read more »
>
> --
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
--
some of that in common. Sending complex biological organisms through
interstellar space doesn't sound efficient if there are any
alternatives. Going up the spectrum of biotech advancements at some
unknown point a species might be able to choose not just the
technological method but innovate the medium of transport itself.
Perhaps they would kindly drop me a mental note explaining why
determinism is accurate, except when it is not, and how that could make
any sense. Perhaps another medium is atemporal, but we are rooted here
and now. What part of us could possibly lie outside the massive barriers
of physics, I'm still looking for answers myself. What I see as plain
and common as gravity leads me right here feeling dumb as a box of rocks.
Purpose is a frightening notion.. I don't resent that some have found
answers so much as it seems people latch on answers for security, maybe
I'll demand my dog to tell me what 6*7 is tomorrow. ;-) Hope your
recovery is going well Allan, you are sounding better.
Yikes, belated welcome to the group Bill!
On 9/28/2012 10:27 PM, Allan H wrote:
> Why can not our or for that matter any other alien body else where be
> .nothing more than a vehicle for the soul?
> Allan
>
> On Sep 29, 2012 3:17 AM, "archytas" <nwterry@gmail.com
> <mailto:nwterry@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> It strikes me Bill that UFO stories and thinking about the future and
> better places (heaven etc) can be part of science. We have no answers
> to what we are doing here other than speculation. I tend to think the
> economic world is religiously organised as a control fraud - this
> aspect of religion bothers me a lot and the spiritual does not.
> Reporting in UFOs (and such matters as spontaneous human combustion)
> is so naff I can't get interested.
>
> We would generally wonder why we don't know human and cosmic purpose
> and consider this a disadvantage hard to imagine a benevolent creator
> giving us. The Spartans, at least in myth, sent their male kids out
> to cope in the wild. It would be good if mum and dad turned up in a
> space-ship with an explanation.
>
> On 28 Sep, 22:33, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com
> <mailto:nwte...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > We live on a hill between two rivers Allan. The town here
> floods, but
> > its such a dump now we don't go there. The weather in NW England is
> > pretty bad generally, but this has been a very bad summer as opposed
> > to standardly bad. I'm off to the dog track at Belle Vue on Saturday
> > night - just for a daft night out. I expect a few 'alien runners'
> > there!
> >
> > If there is intelligent life elsewhere I expect they won't be animal
> > like us. Evolution is red in tooth and claw in part, but also about
> > cooperation and Borg-like integration of species. Whilst I see mind
> > as a lot to do with brain processing, evidence mounts that this is
> > only part of the story - some ants that are enslaved now act in
> > rebellion against there masters with no 'hope' of improving their own
> > individual condition, presumably on behalf of the rest of their
> > species. I expect aliens to be able to be able to do the Borg thing
> > and make use of what is biologically and technically available to
> make
> > themselves and not be stuck with our lusts for reproduction. My
> guess
> > is such assimilation would not be to dominate or produce 'drones'.
> >
> > On he speed of light we know it depends on the medium it is
> travelling
> > in, slowing to about bicycle speed in a Bose-Einstein condensate,
> > almost stopping in such and emerging as a matter wave. If gravity
> > exists we don't know how fast it travels or how fast space expands.
> > The issue of quantum stuff like instantaneous knowing in wave
> equation
> > systems in which the bits 'know' each other remains.
> >
> > Other species are nw only with us in assimilation or history and our
> > fate may be little more. We are only special in made-up stories of
> > god, origin and heroes we know are trash. One of my questions about
> > robot heaven or advanced inter-galactic society is why anyone would
> > risk human beings spoiling it!
> >
> > On 28 Sep, 13:28, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com
> <mailto:rigs...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > What about the Elysian Fields for fallen heroes and the blessed-
> > > mentioned in the Odyssey and Aeneid? I worry about the
> non-heroes and
> > > esp. those who are massacred and dumped in a pit or potter's grave
> > > with no ceremony. But I do agree, we dabble in heaven and hell
> during
> > > our lifetimes. For instance, a bad marriage is compared to Hell-
> > > true! :-) A sensory delight of the flesh or palate is compared to
> > > Heaven. The afterlife was popular in early Christianity to give the
> > > poor hope but later you could buy your way into heaven with
> > > indulgences and the guilt remains, perhaps, with charities and
> > > volunteerism. I have a more practical view but let's face it-
> people
> > > want easy answers, easy fixes/exits.
> >
> > > On Sep 28, 12:17 am, William L Houts <luka...@gmail.com
> <mailto:luka...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > > > I wonder if humans do dream of uncorrupted worlds, in
> general. You'd
> > > > think that would be universal, and it does seem to be borne
> out by
> > > > Western mythologies, with some exceptions. For instance, the
> Greeks had
> > > > Olympus, but except for Heracles no one got to go there;
> everyone else
> > > > went to Hades, which was gloomy and boring if you were lucky
> enough to
> > > > land there in general population, and terrifying if the gods
> put you in
> > > > Tartarus. And the Romans didn't seem to place faith in any
> sort of
> > > > afterlife at all, which is one of the main reasons
> whyChristianity sold
> > > > like hotcakes. Eastern religions such as Buddhism had
> various hells and
> > > > heavens, but they were sort of besides the point: your karma
> is / was
> > > > supposed to boil down to nothing and liberate you from the
> Wheel of
> > > > Rebirth, which was supposed to put you in Nirvana, which was
> less a
> > > > Heaven than it was a Nowhere. And Taoism doesn't have much to
> say about
> > > > heavenly afterworlds; its whole point is to make this world
> more just
> > > > and balanced and leaves heavens to the individual to figure out.
> >
> > > > But as to your question of whether humans long for
> uncorrupted worlds, I
> > > > think that besides the Abrahamic religions noone takes them very
> > > > seriously. And I think they've got a point: I mean, if
> you're taking
> > > > your present existence at all seriously, then just what is an
> afterlife
> > > > supposed to be about? Are we supposed to be eating bonbons
> all day and
> > > > living in some version of American luxury? I'd like to
> believe in
> > > > Heaven --which for me looks like a kind of liberal college
> town, with
> > > > libraries and funky old cinema houses-- but all of that seems
> kind of
> > > > empty if there's no gravitas, no seriousness. Without
> death, without a
> > > > final marker which howls at us, Do what you must do NOW and
> die knowing
> > > > that you've used your life well--without that, I think heaven
> would
> > > > become kind of slouchy and boring, or worse. Unless, of
> course, what's
> > > > waiting for us on the other side is something superrational but
> > > > beautiful, like being absorbed into the godhead, if such
> there be.
> >
> > > > So in answer to your question, I think we do dream of
> uncorrupt worlds,
> > > > but if we examine them too closely, they tend to be bustable soap
> > > > bubbles. And maybe I lack imagination, but I wonder, how
> could it be any
> > > > other way? Frankly, I'd like to be told how. I sound
> sensible about all
> > > > of this if a little pessimistic, but in reality I'm a scared
> ex-Catholic
> > > > who is terrified of death and wants to solve the Big
> Question before
> > > > they're performing Last Rites on his sorry ass.
> >
> > > > --Bill
> >
> > > > On 9/27/2012 7:20 PM, rigsy03 wrote:
> >
> > > > > I wonder where you put the mythological and religious
> other-worldlies-
> > > > > from gods to guardian angels, etc.? Or the construct of Dante's
> > > > > "Divine Comedy", for instance. Do humans long for
> uncorrupted worlds?
> >
> > > > > On Sep 27, 6:23 pm, William L Houts <luka...@gmail.com
> <mailto:luka...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > > >> I'm with the pragmatists on the question of intelligent
> alien species.
> > > > >> Many scientists who speculate on this sort of thing
> --though there
> > > > >> really aren't that many of them-- say that such species
> wouldn't
> > > > >> resemble anything so comforting as a humanoid physiology,
> but I think
> > > > >> they're partly mistaken. Surely there would be surprises
> in the way
> > > > >> nature cooks up life on other planets with radically different
> > > > >> chemistries than our dear old Mama Earth. But I think
> there's reason to
> > > > >> suppose that many alien species would resemble us. After
> all, any
> > > > >> species we might imagine has to cope with gravity as it
> evolves. So
> > > > >> they're much more likely to evolve some form of locomotion
> which
> > > > >> involves two, four or six pedal extremities (as Fats
> Waller calls them)
> > > > >> rather than three or five: even-numbered legs are less
> wobbly and more
> > > > >> amenable to balanced movement which consumes fewer
> calories. . Also,
> > > > >> sense organs like eyes and ears are likely to be located
> in or close to
> > > > >> a head, as there is survival value in having sense organs
> located close
> > > > >> to a brain, or whatever such species might use for brains.
> Finally,
> > > > >> everyone in the cosmos requires energy to get going, so
> they're either
> > > > >> going to evolve photosynthesis and take their energy
> directly from their
> > > > >> sun or suns, or they're going to take their sunbeams
> indirectly by
> > > > >> consuming something lower in the food chain. I'm sure
> there are lots of
> > > > >> evolution pathways I'm leaving out, seeing as I'm a
> curious poet rather
> > > > >> than a serious scientist type of guy, but I think these
> notions are, as
> > > > >> Allan named other ideas of mine, sensible provisos.
> >
> > > > >> PS. I left out centipedes and millipedes with their
> scores of legs, but
> > > > >> I think y'all's get what I'm saying here.
> >
> > > > >> --Bill
> >
> > > > >> On 9/27/2012 3:57 PM, archytas wrote:
> >
> > > > >>> I haven't seen any UFOs and tend not to be much
> interested in people
> > > > >>> who claim to have - at least without Bill's sensible
> provisos. The
> > > > >>> speed of thought as a brain process is slower than
> light-speed - but
> > > > >>> then I'm basically a tropical fish realist. I'd have a
> bet that no
> > > > >>> one in this group would really have much of a definition
> of light-
> > > > >>> speed and the Ricel curvature tensor, Euler Langrangian
> and the rest
> > > > >>> of Einstein's field equations. I mean no offence and
> don't do much of
> > > > >>> this science myself.
> > > > >>> If you point out to a physicist that the people from the
> future who
> > > > >>> have invented the time machine are in extraordinarily
> short supply in
> > > > >>> our present he may come up with some mathematical guff on
> the shape of
> > > > >>> the universe that explains this or makes time travel only
> possible to
> > > > >>> the future. I have seen demons - plodding back to camp
> after a week's
> > > > >>> endurance exercise with no food for two days I was
> visually convinced
> > > > >>> the sentries were vampires but still asked them where the
> Naffi was.
> > > > >>> My guess is that we travel through space as primitive
> life-forms with
> > > > >>> evolution built-in and waiting to unfold. We may thus
> have come from
> > > > >>> a much more advanced civilisation than ours bound by the
> speed of
> > > > >>> light, capable of the biological engineering but not
> space-flight much
> > > > >>> more advanced than our own. Calculations give 28 years
> as the time to
> > > > >>> reach the edge of the known universe - but this is the
> time inside the
> > > > >>> ship accelerating to near light speed fairly slowly.
> Space is not
> > > > >>> friction free and it's doubtful we or our instruments
> could take the
> > > > >>> radiation of light-speed flight.
> > > > >>> I rather hope there are some nice, genuinely civilised
> aliens thinking
> > > > >>> of coming here. In my speculation, intelligent life
> tends to worry
> > > > >>> about food chains led by apes as these have been
> notoriously war-like.
> > > > >>> I'm into bees and ants rather than UFOs at the moment.
> Bees use
> > > > >>> 'pharma' to combat fungal infections. Ants take slaves -
> killing the
> > > > >>> adults of another species and
> >
> > ...
> >
> > read more »
>
> --
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
--
Re: Mind's Eye UFO's: Fact or Fantasy?
One of my interests is in animal and plant behaviour that has human
analogy. The most common life-style on earth is parasitism. There
are fungi that castrate the plants they live off, ants that take
slaves and so on. I tend to the view that science is an attempt to
relieve the human condition from control fraud - basically the
religions we suffer from - now mainly money. Ant slavemakers
basically steal the larvae of another brood to wet-nurse their own.
Their is rebellion in some slave species - they start killing the
slavers at the pupal stage. Various developments in an arms' war on
both sides are known. Slavemakers disguise their eggs and so on.
it's fairly easy to see that we humans may be held in slave-condition
and not know. Perhaps by aliens we are preparing the Earth for -
etc.
On 30 Sep, 13:56, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Living creatures can be quite cooperative- maybe moreso than humans-
> in fact, I'd say humans have been the most destructive creature on
> earth.
>
> As far as the human "lust for reproduction", it served a social
> purpose: slave labor, warriors, factory workers, settlements/towns,
> political and religious power, customers. Large families had an
> economic purpose in the past with a preference for males.
>
> On Sep 28, 4:33 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > We live on a hill between two rivers Allan. The town here floods, but
> > its such a dump now we don't go there. The weather in NW England is
> > pretty bad generally, but this has been a very bad summer as opposed
> > to standardly bad. I'm off to the dog track at Belle Vue on Saturday
> > night - just for a daft night out. I expect a few 'alien runners'
> > there!
>
> > If there is intelligent life elsewhere I expect they won't be animal
> > like us. Evolution is red in tooth and claw in part, but also about
> > cooperation and Borg-like integration of species. Whilst I see mind
> > as a lot to do with brain processing, evidence mounts that this is
> > only part of the story - some ants that are enslaved now act in
> > rebellion against there masters with no 'hope' of improving their own
> > individual condition, presumably on behalf of the rest of their
> > species. I expect aliens to be able to be able to do the Borg thing
> > and make use of what is biologically and technically available to make
> > themselves and not be stuck with our lusts for reproduction. My guess
> > is such assimilation would not be to dominate or produce 'drones'.
>
> > On he speed of light we know it depends on the medium it is travelling
> > in, slowing to about bicycle speed in a Bose-Einstein condensate,
> > almost stopping in such and emerging as a matter wave. If gravity
> > exists we don't know how fast it travels or how fast space expands.
> > The issue of quantum stuff like instantaneous knowing in wave equation
> > systems in which the bits 'know' each other remains.
>
> > Other species are nw only with us in assimilation or history and our
> > fate may be little more. We are only special in made-up stories of
> > god, origin and heroes we know are trash. One of my questions about
> > robot heaven or advanced inter-galactic society is why anyone would
> > risk human beings spoiling it!
>
> > On 28 Sep, 13:28, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > What about the Elysian Fields for fallen heroes and the blessed-
> > > mentioned in the Odyssey and Aeneid? I worry about the non-heroes and
> > > esp. those who are massacred and dumped in a pit or potter's grave
> > > with no ceremony. But I do agree, we dabble in heaven and hell during
> > > our lifetimes. For instance, a bad marriage is compared to Hell-
> > > true! :-) A sensory delight of the flesh or palate is compared to
> > > Heaven. The afterlife was popular in early Christianity to give the
> > > poor hope but later you could buy your way into heaven with
> > > indulgences and the guilt remains, perhaps, with charities and
> > > volunteerism. I have a more practical view but let's face it- people
> > > want easy answers, easy fixes/exits.
>
> > > On Sep 28, 12:17 am, William L Houts <luka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I wonder if humans do dream of uncorrupted worlds, in general. You'd
> > > > think that would be universal, and it does seem to be borne out by
> > > > Western mythologies, with some exceptions. For instance, the Greeks had
> > > > Olympus, but except for Heracles no one got to go there; everyone else
> > > > went to Hades, which was gloomy and boring if you were lucky enough to
> > > > land there in general population, and terrifying if the gods put you in
> > > > Tartarus. And the Romans didn't seem to place faith in any sort of
> > > > afterlife at all, which is one of the main reasons whyChristianity sold
> > > > like hotcakes. Eastern religions such as Buddhism had various hells and
> > > > heavens, but they were sort of besides the point: your karma is / was
> > > > supposed to boil down to nothing and liberate you from the Wheel of
> > > > Rebirth, which was supposed to put you in Nirvana, which was less a
> > > > Heaven than it was a Nowhere. And Taoism doesn't have much to say about
> > > > heavenly afterworlds; its whole point is to make this world more just
> > > > and balanced and leaves heavens to the individual to figure out.
>
> > > > But as to your question of whether humans long for uncorrupted worlds, I
> > > > think that besides the Abrahamic religions noone takes them very
> > > > seriously. And I think they've got a point: I mean, if you're taking
> > > > your present existence at all seriously, then just what is an afterlife
> > > > supposed to be about? Are we supposed to be eating bonbons all day and
> > > > living in some version of American luxury? I'd like to believe in
> > > > Heaven --which for me looks like a kind of liberal college town, with
> > > > libraries and funky old cinema houses-- but all of that seems kind of
> > > > empty if there's no gravitas, no seriousness. Without death, without a
> > > > final marker which howls at us, Do what you must do NOW and die knowing
> > > > that you've used your life well--without that, I think heaven would
> > > > become kind of slouchy and boring, or worse. Unless, of course, what's
> > > > waiting for us on the other side is something superrational but
> > > > beautiful, like being absorbed into the godhead, if such there be.
>
> > > > So in answer to your question, I think we do dream of uncorrupt worlds,
> > > > but if we examine them too closely, they tend to be bustable soap
> > > > bubbles. And maybe I lack imagination, but I wonder, how could it be any
> > > > other way? Frankly, I'd like to be told how. I sound sensible about all
> > > > of this if a little pessimistic, but in reality I'm a scared ex-Catholic
> > > > who is terrified of death and wants to solve the Big Question before
> > > > they're performing Last Rites on his sorry ass.
>
> > > > --Bill
>
> > > > On 9/27/2012 7:20 PM, rigsy03 wrote:
>
> > > > > I wonder where you put the mythological and religious other-worldlies-
> > > > > from gods to guardian angels, etc.? Or the construct of Dante's
> > > > > "Divine Comedy", for instance. Do humans long for uncorrupted worlds?
>
> > > > > On Sep 27, 6:23 pm, William L Houts <luka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> I'm with the pragmatists on the question of intelligent alien species.
> > > > >> Many scientists who speculate on this sort of thing --though there
> > > > >> really aren't that many of them-- say that such species wouldn't
> > > > >> resemble anything so comforting as a humanoid physiology, but I think
> > > > >> they're partly mistaken. Surely there would be surprises in the way
> > > > >> nature cooks up life on other planets with radically different
> > > > >> chemistries than our dear old Mama Earth. But I think there's reason to
> > > > >> suppose that many alien species would resemble us. After all, any
> > > > >> species we might imagine has to cope with gravity as it evolves. So
> > > > >> they're much more likely to evolve some form of locomotion which
> > > > >> involves two, four or six pedal extremities (as Fats Waller calls them)
> > > > >> rather than three or five: even-numbered legs are less wobbly and more
> > > > >> amenable to balanced movement which consumes fewer calories. . Also,
> > > > >> sense organs like eyes and ears are likely to be located in or close to
> > > > >> a head, as there is survival value in having sense organs located close
> > > > >> to a brain, or whatever such species might use for brains. Finally,
> > > > >> everyone in the cosmos requires energy to get going, so they're either
> > > > >> going to evolve photosynthesis and take their energy directly from their
> > > > >> sun or suns, or they're going to take their sunbeams indirectly by
> > > > >> consuming something lower in the food chain. I'm sure there are lots of
> > > > >> evolution pathways I'm leaving out, seeing as I'm a curious poet rather
> > > > >> than a serious scientist type of guy, but I think these notions are, as
> > > > >> Allan named other ideas of mine, sensible provisos.
>
> > > > >> PS. I left out centipedes and millipedes with their scores of legs, but
> > > > >> I think y'all's get what I'm saying here.
>
> > > > >> --Bill
>
> > > > >> On 9/27/2012 3:57 PM, archytas wrote:
>
> > > > >>> I haven't seen any UFOs and tend not to be much interested in people
> > > > >>> who claim to have - at least without Bill's sensible provisos. The
> > > > >>> speed of thought as a brain process is slower than light-speed - but
> > > > >>> then I'm basically a tropical fish realist. I'd have a bet that no
> > > > >>> one in this group would really have much of a definition of light-
> > > > >>> speed and the Ricel curvature tensor, Euler Langrangian and the rest
> > > > >>> of Einstein's field equations. I mean no offence and don't do much of
> > > > >>> this science myself.
> > > > >>> If you point out to a physicist that the people from the future who
> > > > >>> have invented the time machine are in extraordinarily short supply in
> > > > >>> our present he may come up with some mathematical guff on the shape of
> > > > >>> the universe that explains this or makes time travel only possible to
> > > > >>> the future. I have seen demons - plodding back to camp after a week's
> > > > >>> endurance exercise with no food for two days I was visually convinced
> > > > >>> the sentries were vampires but still asked them where the Naffi was.
> > > > >>> My guess is that we travel through space as primitive life-forms with
> > > > >>> evolution built-in and waiting to unfold. We may thus have come from
> > > > >>> a much more advanced civilisation than ours bound by the speed of
> > > > >>> light, capable of the biological engineering but not space-flight much
> > > > >>> more advanced than our own. Calculations give 28
>
> ...
>
> read more »
--
analogy. The most common life-style on earth is parasitism. There
are fungi that castrate the plants they live off, ants that take
slaves and so on. I tend to the view that science is an attempt to
relieve the human condition from control fraud - basically the
religions we suffer from - now mainly money. Ant slavemakers
basically steal the larvae of another brood to wet-nurse their own.
Their is rebellion in some slave species - they start killing the
slavers at the pupal stage. Various developments in an arms' war on
both sides are known. Slavemakers disguise their eggs and so on.
it's fairly easy to see that we humans may be held in slave-condition
and not know. Perhaps by aliens we are preparing the Earth for -
etc.
On 30 Sep, 13:56, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Living creatures can be quite cooperative- maybe moreso than humans-
> in fact, I'd say humans have been the most destructive creature on
> earth.
>
> As far as the human "lust for reproduction", it served a social
> purpose: slave labor, warriors, factory workers, settlements/towns,
> political and religious power, customers. Large families had an
> economic purpose in the past with a preference for males.
>
> On Sep 28, 4:33 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > We live on a hill between two rivers Allan. The town here floods, but
> > its such a dump now we don't go there. The weather in NW England is
> > pretty bad generally, but this has been a very bad summer as opposed
> > to standardly bad. I'm off to the dog track at Belle Vue on Saturday
> > night - just for a daft night out. I expect a few 'alien runners'
> > there!
>
> > If there is intelligent life elsewhere I expect they won't be animal
> > like us. Evolution is red in tooth and claw in part, but also about
> > cooperation and Borg-like integration of species. Whilst I see mind
> > as a lot to do with brain processing, evidence mounts that this is
> > only part of the story - some ants that are enslaved now act in
> > rebellion against there masters with no 'hope' of improving their own
> > individual condition, presumably on behalf of the rest of their
> > species. I expect aliens to be able to be able to do the Borg thing
> > and make use of what is biologically and technically available to make
> > themselves and not be stuck with our lusts for reproduction. My guess
> > is such assimilation would not be to dominate or produce 'drones'.
>
> > On he speed of light we know it depends on the medium it is travelling
> > in, slowing to about bicycle speed in a Bose-Einstein condensate,
> > almost stopping in such and emerging as a matter wave. If gravity
> > exists we don't know how fast it travels or how fast space expands.
> > The issue of quantum stuff like instantaneous knowing in wave equation
> > systems in which the bits 'know' each other remains.
>
> > Other species are nw only with us in assimilation or history and our
> > fate may be little more. We are only special in made-up stories of
> > god, origin and heroes we know are trash. One of my questions about
> > robot heaven or advanced inter-galactic society is why anyone would
> > risk human beings spoiling it!
>
> > On 28 Sep, 13:28, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > What about the Elysian Fields for fallen heroes and the blessed-
> > > mentioned in the Odyssey and Aeneid? I worry about the non-heroes and
> > > esp. those who are massacred and dumped in a pit or potter's grave
> > > with no ceremony. But I do agree, we dabble in heaven and hell during
> > > our lifetimes. For instance, a bad marriage is compared to Hell-
> > > true! :-) A sensory delight of the flesh or palate is compared to
> > > Heaven. The afterlife was popular in early Christianity to give the
> > > poor hope but later you could buy your way into heaven with
> > > indulgences and the guilt remains, perhaps, with charities and
> > > volunteerism. I have a more practical view but let's face it- people
> > > want easy answers, easy fixes/exits.
>
> > > On Sep 28, 12:17 am, William L Houts <luka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I wonder if humans do dream of uncorrupted worlds, in general. You'd
> > > > think that would be universal, and it does seem to be borne out by
> > > > Western mythologies, with some exceptions. For instance, the Greeks had
> > > > Olympus, but except for Heracles no one got to go there; everyone else
> > > > went to Hades, which was gloomy and boring if you were lucky enough to
> > > > land there in general population, and terrifying if the gods put you in
> > > > Tartarus. And the Romans didn't seem to place faith in any sort of
> > > > afterlife at all, which is one of the main reasons whyChristianity sold
> > > > like hotcakes. Eastern religions such as Buddhism had various hells and
> > > > heavens, but they were sort of besides the point: your karma is / was
> > > > supposed to boil down to nothing and liberate you from the Wheel of
> > > > Rebirth, which was supposed to put you in Nirvana, which was less a
> > > > Heaven than it was a Nowhere. And Taoism doesn't have much to say about
> > > > heavenly afterworlds; its whole point is to make this world more just
> > > > and balanced and leaves heavens to the individual to figure out.
>
> > > > But as to your question of whether humans long for uncorrupted worlds, I
> > > > think that besides the Abrahamic religions noone takes them very
> > > > seriously. And I think they've got a point: I mean, if you're taking
> > > > your present existence at all seriously, then just what is an afterlife
> > > > supposed to be about? Are we supposed to be eating bonbons all day and
> > > > living in some version of American luxury? I'd like to believe in
> > > > Heaven --which for me looks like a kind of liberal college town, with
> > > > libraries and funky old cinema houses-- but all of that seems kind of
> > > > empty if there's no gravitas, no seriousness. Without death, without a
> > > > final marker which howls at us, Do what you must do NOW and die knowing
> > > > that you've used your life well--without that, I think heaven would
> > > > become kind of slouchy and boring, or worse. Unless, of course, what's
> > > > waiting for us on the other side is something superrational but
> > > > beautiful, like being absorbed into the godhead, if such there be.
>
> > > > So in answer to your question, I think we do dream of uncorrupt worlds,
> > > > but if we examine them too closely, they tend to be bustable soap
> > > > bubbles. And maybe I lack imagination, but I wonder, how could it be any
> > > > other way? Frankly, I'd like to be told how. I sound sensible about all
> > > > of this if a little pessimistic, but in reality I'm a scared ex-Catholic
> > > > who is terrified of death and wants to solve the Big Question before
> > > > they're performing Last Rites on his sorry ass.
>
> > > > --Bill
>
> > > > On 9/27/2012 7:20 PM, rigsy03 wrote:
>
> > > > > I wonder where you put the mythological and religious other-worldlies-
> > > > > from gods to guardian angels, etc.? Or the construct of Dante's
> > > > > "Divine Comedy", for instance. Do humans long for uncorrupted worlds?
>
> > > > > On Sep 27, 6:23 pm, William L Houts <luka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> I'm with the pragmatists on the question of intelligent alien species.
> > > > >> Many scientists who speculate on this sort of thing --though there
> > > > >> really aren't that many of them-- say that such species wouldn't
> > > > >> resemble anything so comforting as a humanoid physiology, but I think
> > > > >> they're partly mistaken. Surely there would be surprises in the way
> > > > >> nature cooks up life on other planets with radically different
> > > > >> chemistries than our dear old Mama Earth. But I think there's reason to
> > > > >> suppose that many alien species would resemble us. After all, any
> > > > >> species we might imagine has to cope with gravity as it evolves. So
> > > > >> they're much more likely to evolve some form of locomotion which
> > > > >> involves two, four or six pedal extremities (as Fats Waller calls them)
> > > > >> rather than three or five: even-numbered legs are less wobbly and more
> > > > >> amenable to balanced movement which consumes fewer calories. . Also,
> > > > >> sense organs like eyes and ears are likely to be located in or close to
> > > > >> a head, as there is survival value in having sense organs located close
> > > > >> to a brain, or whatever such species might use for brains. Finally,
> > > > >> everyone in the cosmos requires energy to get going, so they're either
> > > > >> going to evolve photosynthesis and take their energy directly from their
> > > > >> sun or suns, or they're going to take their sunbeams indirectly by
> > > > >> consuming something lower in the food chain. I'm sure there are lots of
> > > > >> evolution pathways I'm leaving out, seeing as I'm a curious poet rather
> > > > >> than a serious scientist type of guy, but I think these notions are, as
> > > > >> Allan named other ideas of mine, sensible provisos.
>
> > > > >> PS. I left out centipedes and millipedes with their scores of legs, but
> > > > >> I think y'all's get what I'm saying here.
>
> > > > >> --Bill
>
> > > > >> On 9/27/2012 3:57 PM, archytas wrote:
>
> > > > >>> I haven't seen any UFOs and tend not to be much interested in people
> > > > >>> who claim to have - at least without Bill's sensible provisos. The
> > > > >>> speed of thought as a brain process is slower than light-speed - but
> > > > >>> then I'm basically a tropical fish realist. I'd have a bet that no
> > > > >>> one in this group would really have much of a definition of light-
> > > > >>> speed and the Ricel curvature tensor, Euler Langrangian and the rest
> > > > >>> of Einstein's field equations. I mean no offence and don't do much of
> > > > >>> this science myself.
> > > > >>> If you point out to a physicist that the people from the future who
> > > > >>> have invented the time machine are in extraordinarily short supply in
> > > > >>> our present he may come up with some mathematical guff on the shape of
> > > > >>> the universe that explains this or makes time travel only possible to
> > > > >>> the future. I have seen demons - plodding back to camp after a week's
> > > > >>> endurance exercise with no food for two days I was visually convinced
> > > > >>> the sentries were vampires but still asked them where the Naffi was.
> > > > >>> My guess is that we travel through space as primitive life-forms with
> > > > >>> evolution built-in and waiting to unfold. We may thus have come from
> > > > >>> a much more advanced civilisation than ours bound by the speed of
> > > > >>> light, capable of the biological engineering but not space-flight much
> > > > >>> more advanced than our own. Calculations give 28
>
> ...
>
> read more »
--
Re: Mind's Eye Re: Peer Networking
Some wealth is not evil, Allan. It depends on how it is acquired and
used. Like it or not, it is one of the markers of success.
On Sep 30, 7:58 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rigsy I really feel sorry for those people who are hide from their
> responsibilities especially for greed.. the soul in this human vehicle has
> to return to the mandala where their greed will be held in account.. if
> it is perfectly legal is a viable excuse well all I can say is good luck.
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 2:37 PM, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > But people can "hide" their wealth in the USA anyway via trusts,
> > certain investments, taking advantage of laws in other states for tax
> > purposes. These and other methods are perfectly legal.
>
> > On Sep 28, 9:02 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > that is a cool idea preventing people from hiding to avoid paying
> > taxes,,
>
> > > evil wicked laugh
> > > Allan
> > > On Sep 28, 2012 2:34 PM, "rigsy03" <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > P.S. Re: that video that showed over-testing- sometimes dangerous or
> > > > nonsense- but I don't remember if they mentioned that the medical
> > > > profession is terrified of malpractice suits.
>
> > > > Greece wants their super- rich who have moved to other nations to pay
> > > > taxes. Can they extradite them?
>
> > > > On Sep 27, 9:14 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > The basic motive is competition and profit so corners are cut or
> > > > > falsified sometimes. Also, it is a game to sharp traders. And I think
> > > > > it goes further back than the Middle Ages- how about ancient
> > > > > mythologies? The trickster deities were warnings- "buyer beware".
>
> > > > > Somewhat related; "Money & Medicine"
> > > >http://video.pbs.org/video/2280765671
>
> > > > > Had a back molar pulled yesterday. My neighbor took me over, waited
> > > > > and drove me home- he is a dear. Advice: if one MUST smoke, use a
> > > > > cigarette holder away from the socket; follow advice about cold packs
> > > > > and pain meds; keep foods interesting like polenta with butter and
> > > > > parmesan, carrot-ginger soup, scrambled eggs, etc., avoiding
> > > > > extraction site and keep to a sane diet till healing is complete.
>
> > > > > On Sep 27, 6:10 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > The 'official speak' of my postmodernism is 'Lakatosian paradigm in
> > > > > > decadence' - regulations are cheated. It's getting more difficult
> > to
> > > > > > cheat in sport these days because of drug-testing, referees and the
> > > > > > video replay. Just as his was happening in sport, 'someone'
> > decided
> > > > > > to let all the rules go to pot in finance. I had a very lovely
> > friend
> > > > > > who cheated at Monopoly - the cheating being part of the fun of the
> > > > > > game with no damage done. My feelings are much like rigsy's - I
> > just
> > > > > > think ethics require public scrutiny, ideology prevents this and we
> > > > > > could do the refereeing better. My guess is the problem is
> > essentially
> > > > > > economics and business practices that are medieval and trapped in
> > > > > > animal genetics. Simples!
>
> > > > > > On 26 Sep, 07:44, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Where do you feel Rigsy's stick of despair? She sounds very up to
> > > > date
> > > > > > > to my ears, criticizing our fast unculture (modern positive
> > keyword:
> > > > > > > sustainability).
>
> > > > > > > And Neil posted numbered to do lists in order save the world at
> > least
> > > > > > > twice, as far as I remember. You would have liked them if they
> > had
> > > > > > > sprung off your mind. ;)
>
> > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 2:21 AM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > Rigs, you seem to be beating here, there and everywhere with
> > your
> > > > stick of
> > > > > > > > despair ! Modernism has only changed the form of effects of our
> > > > failures.
> > > > > > > > Even Neil's post-modern theory of ethics seems needlessly
> > complex.
>
> > > > > > > > It's us. Period. Ethics requires people who are moral. Which,
> > in my
> > > > > > > > perspective, translates as men who are evolved ... spiritually
> > > > evolved ...
> > > > > > > > with whom, conscientiousness is supreme virtue.
>
> > > > > > > > Contemplation will take us back to that Truth, of which I
> > tried to
> > > > share not
> > > > > > > > so long ago.
>
> > > > > > > > Honesty is a corollary of truth. It's us. The society you are
> > > > beating is us.
> > > > > > > > Technology and wealth are neutral and inert. If inebriation
> > was in
> > > > alcohol,
> > > > > > > > the bottles should dance !
>
> > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 6:21:10 PM UTC+5:30, rigsy03
> > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > >> The ethics are already in place, Allan- they are just not
> > > > practised.
> > > > > > > >> You could include "greedy" imperialistic nations, berserk
> > > > cultures,
> > > > > > > >> grasping political parties. More's "Utopia" stressed humanism
> > > > which is
> > > > > > > >> under stress due to science and technology today- the new
> > darling.
>
> > > > > > > >> On Sep 24, 10:00 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >> > Ethics are going to be definitely reinvented getting greeedy
> > > > individuals
> > > > > > > >> > and corporations under control.
> > > > > > > >> > Allan
>
> > > > > > > >> > On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 2:59 PM, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >> > > A recent example: "Reinventing Ethics" by Howard Gardner
>
> > > >http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/23/reinventing-ethics/?s.
> > ..
>
> > > > > > > >> > > On Sep 24, 7:50 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >> > > > The government decides how to spend/mis-spend the taxes
> > and
> > > > fees
> > > > > > > >> > > > they
> > > > > > > >> > > > raise because we thought it wise at one time to give
> > them
> > > > that
> > > > > > > >> > > > power.
> > > > > > > >> > > > Banks have altered their function and don't forget
> > credit
> > > > cards as
> > > > > > > >> > > > unsecured loans. Somehow, my mind drifted to Plato's
> > > > "Republic"- but
> > > > > > > >> > > > there are many examples of attempts to organize society-
> > > > none of
> > > > > > > >> > > > which, imho, has done a very good job. There is an
> > > > impossible lack
> > > > > > > >> > > > of
> > > > > > > >> > > > control particularly since the advent of Liberalism.
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > On Sep 22, 6:29 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > > I think the germ of the idea is in this Don. All
> > money
> > > > > > > >> > > > > essentially
> > > > > > > >> > > > > comes from government - what we get from banks is
> > debt.
> > > > Street-up
> > > > > > > >> > > > > decision-making isn't all of it as rigsy points out.
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > > On 22 Sep, 12:26, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > You still have to deal with priorities on that list,
> > > > however.
> > > > > > > >> > > Stadiums
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > might trump infrastructure.
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > On Sep 22, 5:22 am, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > >http://professional.wsj.com/article/SB1000087239639044416580457800851.
> > ..
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > This is what I'm talking about! Decentralization
> > is
> > > > key. I
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > believe
> > > > > > > >> > > this is
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > your busy bees at work Neil.
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > "Peer networks don't have to involve digital
> > > > technology.
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Twenty
> > > > > > > >> > > years ago,
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > the Brazilian city of Porto Alegre pioneered a
> > > > radical new
> > > > > > > >> > > technique called
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > "participatory budgeting." Each year, the city's
> > 16
> > > > regions
> > > > > > > >> > > conduct general
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > assemblies in which neighbors debate priorities
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > budget:
> > > > > > > >> > > school
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > construction, sewer repair, bridge building. The
> > > > assemblies
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > create
> > > > > > > >> > > a ranked
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > list of projects, and the government disperses
> > funds
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > accordingly.
> > > > > > > >> > > The money
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > comes from the state, but the decision of what to
> > > > fund comes
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > >> > > the
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > street."
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > dj- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > >> > > --
>
> > > > > > > >> > --
> > > > > > > >> > (
> > > > > > > >> > )
> > > > > > > >> > |_D Allan
>
> > > > > > > >> > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> > > > > > > >> > I am a Natural Airgunner -
>
> > > > > > > >> > Full of Hot Air & Ready To Expel It Quickly.- Hide quoted
> > text
> > > > -
>
> > > > > > > >> > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > --- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > --- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > --
>
> --
> (
> )
> |_D Allan
>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> I am a Natural Airgunner -
>
> Full of Hot Air & Ready To Expel It Quickly.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
--
used. Like it or not, it is one of the markers of success.
On Sep 30, 7:58 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rigsy I really feel sorry for those people who are hide from their
> responsibilities especially for greed.. the soul in this human vehicle has
> to return to the mandala where their greed will be held in account.. if
> it is perfectly legal is a viable excuse well all I can say is good luck.
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 2:37 PM, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > But people can "hide" their wealth in the USA anyway via trusts,
> > certain investments, taking advantage of laws in other states for tax
> > purposes. These and other methods are perfectly legal.
>
> > On Sep 28, 9:02 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > that is a cool idea preventing people from hiding to avoid paying
> > taxes,,
>
> > > evil wicked laugh
> > > Allan
> > > On Sep 28, 2012 2:34 PM, "rigsy03" <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > P.S. Re: that video that showed over-testing- sometimes dangerous or
> > > > nonsense- but I don't remember if they mentioned that the medical
> > > > profession is terrified of malpractice suits.
>
> > > > Greece wants their super- rich who have moved to other nations to pay
> > > > taxes. Can they extradite them?
>
> > > > On Sep 27, 9:14 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > The basic motive is competition and profit so corners are cut or
> > > > > falsified sometimes. Also, it is a game to sharp traders. And I think
> > > > > it goes further back than the Middle Ages- how about ancient
> > > > > mythologies? The trickster deities were warnings- "buyer beware".
>
> > > > > Somewhat related; "Money & Medicine"
> > > >http://video.pbs.org/video/2280765671
>
> > > > > Had a back molar pulled yesterday. My neighbor took me over, waited
> > > > > and drove me home- he is a dear. Advice: if one MUST smoke, use a
> > > > > cigarette holder away from the socket; follow advice about cold packs
> > > > > and pain meds; keep foods interesting like polenta with butter and
> > > > > parmesan, carrot-ginger soup, scrambled eggs, etc., avoiding
> > > > > extraction site and keep to a sane diet till healing is complete.
>
> > > > > On Sep 27, 6:10 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > The 'official speak' of my postmodernism is 'Lakatosian paradigm in
> > > > > > decadence' - regulations are cheated. It's getting more difficult
> > to
> > > > > > cheat in sport these days because of drug-testing, referees and the
> > > > > > video replay. Just as his was happening in sport, 'someone'
> > decided
> > > > > > to let all the rules go to pot in finance. I had a very lovely
> > friend
> > > > > > who cheated at Monopoly - the cheating being part of the fun of the
> > > > > > game with no damage done. My feelings are much like rigsy's - I
> > just
> > > > > > think ethics require public scrutiny, ideology prevents this and we
> > > > > > could do the refereeing better. My guess is the problem is
> > essentially
> > > > > > economics and business practices that are medieval and trapped in
> > > > > > animal genetics. Simples!
>
> > > > > > On 26 Sep, 07:44, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Where do you feel Rigsy's stick of despair? She sounds very up to
> > > > date
> > > > > > > to my ears, criticizing our fast unculture (modern positive
> > keyword:
> > > > > > > sustainability).
>
> > > > > > > And Neil posted numbered to do lists in order save the world at
> > least
> > > > > > > twice, as far as I remember. You would have liked them if they
> > had
> > > > > > > sprung off your mind. ;)
>
> > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 2:21 AM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > Rigs, you seem to be beating here, there and everywhere with
> > your
> > > > stick of
> > > > > > > > despair ! Modernism has only changed the form of effects of our
> > > > failures.
> > > > > > > > Even Neil's post-modern theory of ethics seems needlessly
> > complex.
>
> > > > > > > > It's us. Period. Ethics requires people who are moral. Which,
> > in my
> > > > > > > > perspective, translates as men who are evolved ... spiritually
> > > > evolved ...
> > > > > > > > with whom, conscientiousness is supreme virtue.
>
> > > > > > > > Contemplation will take us back to that Truth, of which I
> > tried to
> > > > share not
> > > > > > > > so long ago.
>
> > > > > > > > Honesty is a corollary of truth. It's us. The society you are
> > > > beating is us.
> > > > > > > > Technology and wealth are neutral and inert. If inebriation
> > was in
> > > > alcohol,
> > > > > > > > the bottles should dance !
>
> > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 6:21:10 PM UTC+5:30, rigsy03
> > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > >> The ethics are already in place, Allan- they are just not
> > > > practised.
> > > > > > > >> You could include "greedy" imperialistic nations, berserk
> > > > cultures,
> > > > > > > >> grasping political parties. More's "Utopia" stressed humanism
> > > > which is
> > > > > > > >> under stress due to science and technology today- the new
> > darling.
>
> > > > > > > >> On Sep 24, 10:00 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >> > Ethics are going to be definitely reinvented getting greeedy
> > > > individuals
> > > > > > > >> > and corporations under control.
> > > > > > > >> > Allan
>
> > > > > > > >> > On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 2:59 PM, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >> > > A recent example: "Reinventing Ethics" by Howard Gardner
>
> > > >http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/23/reinventing-ethics/?s.
> > ..
>
> > > > > > > >> > > On Sep 24, 7:50 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >> > > > The government decides how to spend/mis-spend the taxes
> > and
> > > > fees
> > > > > > > >> > > > they
> > > > > > > >> > > > raise because we thought it wise at one time to give
> > them
> > > > that
> > > > > > > >> > > > power.
> > > > > > > >> > > > Banks have altered their function and don't forget
> > credit
> > > > cards as
> > > > > > > >> > > > unsecured loans. Somehow, my mind drifted to Plato's
> > > > "Republic"- but
> > > > > > > >> > > > there are many examples of attempts to organize society-
> > > > none of
> > > > > > > >> > > > which, imho, has done a very good job. There is an
> > > > impossible lack
> > > > > > > >> > > > of
> > > > > > > >> > > > control particularly since the advent of Liberalism.
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > On Sep 22, 6:29 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > > I think the germ of the idea is in this Don. All
> > money
> > > > > > > >> > > > > essentially
> > > > > > > >> > > > > comes from government - what we get from banks is
> > debt.
> > > > Street-up
> > > > > > > >> > > > > decision-making isn't all of it as rigsy points out.
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > > On 22 Sep, 12:26, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > You still have to deal with priorities on that list,
> > > > however.
> > > > > > > >> > > Stadiums
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > might trump infrastructure.
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > On Sep 22, 5:22 am, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > >http://professional.wsj.com/article/SB1000087239639044416580457800851.
> > ..
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > This is what I'm talking about! Decentralization
> > is
> > > > key. I
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > believe
> > > > > > > >> > > this is
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > your busy bees at work Neil.
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > "Peer networks don't have to involve digital
> > > > technology.
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Twenty
> > > > > > > >> > > years ago,
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > the Brazilian city of Porto Alegre pioneered a
> > > > radical new
> > > > > > > >> > > technique called
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > "participatory budgeting." Each year, the city's
> > 16
> > > > regions
> > > > > > > >> > > conduct general
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > assemblies in which neighbors debate priorities
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > budget:
> > > > > > > >> > > school
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > construction, sewer repair, bridge building. The
> > > > assemblies
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > create
> > > > > > > >> > > a ranked
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > list of projects, and the government disperses
> > funds
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > accordingly.
> > > > > > > >> > > The money
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > comes from the state, but the decision of what to
> > > > fund comes
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > >> > > the
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > street."
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > dj- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > >> > > --
>
> > > > > > > >> > --
> > > > > > > >> > (
> > > > > > > >> > )
> > > > > > > >> > |_D Allan
>
> > > > > > > >> > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> > > > > > > >> > I am a Natural Airgunner -
>
> > > > > > > >> > Full of Hot Air & Ready To Expel It Quickly.- Hide quoted
> > text
> > > > -
>
> > > > > > > >> > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > --- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > --- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > --
>
> --
> (
> )
> |_D Allan
>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> I am a Natural Airgunner -
>
> Full of Hot Air & Ready To Expel It Quickly.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
--
Re: Mind's Eye Re: Peer Networking
There are many home remedies that are tried and true except that who's
home these days?- and barbers (now doctors) stepped in to create a
profession. Perhaps this is another course we can squeeze into
education to combat the endless ads of the drug companies. I view
doctors/hospitals/drugs as a last resort.
On Sep 28, 9:31 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What medical advice, I thought we were talking about folk remedies or a
> poor mans medicine.
> Allan
> On Sep 29, 2012 3:04 AM, "James" <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Being a sucker for punishment when my wisdom tooth was ground and picked
> > out I smoked and drank a large fountain drink, it only took me a week of
> > dry socket to start thinking creatively. I used one of those little brown
> > bottle Liquid Skin over-the-counter treatments, it may have contained clove
> > oil (that is what I wanted at the time but would've settled for anything),
> > put a good gob on a q-tip and smear it in there. The alcohol gave instant
> > relief to the inflamed bone and a protective coat, the healing went fine
> > from there, not sure how it would do on cavities. This is NOT medical
> > advice, YMMV. ;-)
>
> > On 9/28/2012 10:05 AM, Allan H wrote:
>
> >> well when I could not afford a dentist in the states it keeped the pain
> >> at bay.
> >> Allan
>
> >> On Sep 28, 2012 2:37 PM, "rigsy03" <rigs...@yahoo.com
> >> <mailto:rigs...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
> >> Cloves might help with an ache but not with an extraction- it could
> >> cause infection. Best bet is a rinse of warm salt water to spur
> >> healing and keep food med. soft for a couple of weeks. Already moved
> >> up to ravioli! :-)
>
> >> On Sep 28, 4:20 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com
> >> <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >> > Cloves make a great against pain Rigsy. and as your years have
> >> taught you
> >> > .. this to will pass
> >> > Allan
>
> >> > On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 4:14 AM, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com
> >> <mailto:rigs...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
> >> > > The basic motive is competition and profit so corners are cut or
> >> > > falsified sometimes. Also, it is a game to sharp traders. And I
> >> think
> >> > > it goes further back than the Middle Ages- how about ancient
> >> > > mythologies? The trickster deities were warnings- "buyer beware".
>
> >> > > Somewhat related; "Money & Medicine"
> >> > >http://video.pbs.org/video/**2280765671<http://video.pbs.org/video/2280765671>
>
> >> > > Had a back molar pulled yesterday. My neighbor took me over,
> >> waited
> >> > > and drove me home- he is a dear. Advice: if one MUST smoke, use a
> >> > > cigarette holder away from the socket; follow advice about cold
> >> packs
> >> > > and pain meds; keep foods interesting like polenta with butter
> >> and
> >> > > parmesan, carrot-ginger soup, scrambled eggs, etc., avoiding
> >> > > extraction site and keep to a sane diet till healing is complete.
>
> >> > > On Sep 27, 6:10 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com
> >> <mailto:nwte...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >> > > > The 'official speak' of my postmodernism is 'Lakatosian
> >> paradigm in
> >> > > > decadence' - regulations are cheated. It's getting more
> >> difficult to
> >> > > > cheat in sport these days because of drug-testing, referees
> >> and the
> >> > > > video replay. Just as his was happening in sport, 'someone'
> >> decided
> >> > > > to let all the rules go to pot in finance. I had a very
> >> lovely friend
> >> > > > who cheated at Monopoly - the cheating being part of the fun
> >> of the
> >> > > > game with no damage done. My feelings are much like rigsy's
> >> - I just
> >> > > > think ethics require public scrutiny, ideology prevents this
> >> and we
> >> > > > could do the refereeing better. My guess is the problem is
> >> essentially
> >> > > > economics and business practices that are medieval and trapped
> >> in
> >> > > > animal genetics. Simples!
>
> >> > > > On 26 Sep, 07:44, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com
> >> <mailto:gabbyd...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >> > > > > Where do you feel Rigsy's stick of despair? She sounds very
> >> up to date
> >> > > > > to my ears, criticizing our fast unculture (modern positive
> >> keyword:
> >> > > > > sustainability).
>
> >> > > > > And Neil posted numbered to do lists in order save the
> >> world at least
> >> > > > > twice, as far as I remember. You would have liked them if
> >> they had
> >> > > > > sprung off your mind. ;)
>
> >> > > > > On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 2:21 AM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com
> >> <mailto:atewari2...@gmail.com>**> wrote:
> >> > > > > > Rigs, you seem to be beating here, there and everywhere
> >> with your
> >> > > stick of
> >> > > > > > despair ! Modernism has only changed the form of effects
> >> of our
> >> > > failures.
> >> > > > > > Even Neil's post-modern theory of ethics seems needlessly
> >> complex.
>
> >> > > > > > It's us. Period. Ethics requires people who are moral.
> >> Which, in my
> >> > > > > > perspective, translates as men who are evolved ...
> >> spiritually
> >> > > evolved ...
> >> > > > > > with whom, conscientiousness is supreme virtue.
>
> >> > > > > > Contemplation will take us back to that Truth, of which I
> >> tried to
> >> > > share not
> >> > > > > > so long ago.
>
> >> > > > > > Honesty is a corollary of truth. It's us. The society you
> >> are
> >> > > beating is us.
> >> > > > > > Technology and wealth are neutral and inert. If
> >> inebriation was in
> >> > > alcohol,
> >> > > > > > the bottles should dance !
>
> >> > > > > > On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 6:21:10 PM UTC+5:30,
> >> rigsy03 wrote:
>
> >> > > > > >> The ethics are already in place, Allan- they are just
> >> not practised.
> >> > > > > >> You could include "greedy" imperialistic nations,
> >> berserk cultures,
> >> > > > > >> grasping political parties. More's "Utopia" stressed
> >> humanism which
> >> > > is
> >> > > > > >> under stress due to science and technology today- the
> >> new darling.
>
> >> > > > > >> On Sep 24, 10:00 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com
> >> <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >> > > > > >> > Ethics are going to be definitely reinvented getting
> >> greeedy
> >> > > individuals
> >> > > > > >> > and corporations under control.
> >> > > > > >> > Allan
>
> >> > > > > >> > On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 2:59 PM, rigsy03
> >> <rigs...@yahoo.com <mailto:rigs...@yahoo.com>>
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > > > > >> > > A recent example: "Reinventing Ethics" by Howard
> >> Gardner
>
> >> >http://opinionator.blogs.**nytimes.com/2012/09/23/**
> >> reinventing-ethics/?s.<http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/23/reinventing-ethics/?s.>
> >> ..
>
> >> > > > > >> > > On Sep 24, 7:50 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com
> >> <mailto:rigs...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
> >> > > > > >> > > > The government decides how to spend/mis-spend the
> >> taxes and
> >> > > fees
> >> > > > > >> > > > they
> >> > > > > >> > > > raise because we thought it wise at one time to
> >> give them that
> >> > > > > >> > > > power.
> >> > > > > >> > > > Banks have altered their function and don't forget
> >> credit
> >> > > cards as
> >> > > > > >> > > > unsecured loans. Somehow, my mind drifted to Plato's
> >> > > "Republic"- but
> >> > > > > >> > > > there are many examples of attempts to organize
> >> society- none
> >> > > of
> >> > > > > >> > > > which, imho, has done a very good job. There is an
> >> impossible
> >> > > lack
> >> > > > > >> > > > of
> >> > > > > >> > > > control particularly since the advent of Liberalism.
>
> >> > > > > >> > > > On Sep 22, 6:29 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com
> >> <mailto:nwte...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >> > > > > >> > > > > I think the germ of the idea is in this Don.
> >> All money
> >> > > > > >> > > > > essentially
> >> > > > > >> > > > > comes from government - what we get from banks
> >> is debt.
> >> > > Street-up
> >> > > > > >> > > > > decision-making isn't all of it as rigsy points
> >> out.
>
> >> > > > > >> > > > > On 22 Sep, 12:26, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com
> >> <mailto:rigs...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > You still have to deal with priorities on that
> >> list,
> >> > > however.
> >> > > > > >> > > Stadiums
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > might trump infrastructure.
>
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > On Sep 22, 5:22 am, Don Johnson
> >> <daj...@gmail.com <mailto:daj...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >> >http://professional.wsj.com/**article/**
> >> SB1000087239639044416580457800**851.<http://professional.wsj.com/article/SB1000087239639044416580457800851.>
> >> ..
>
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > This is what I'm talking about!
> >> Decentralization is
> >> > > key. I
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > believe
> >> > > > > >> > > this is
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > your busy bees at work Neil.
>
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > "Peer networks don't have to involve digital
> >> technology.
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > Twenty
> >> > > > > >> > > years ago,
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > the Brazilian city of Porto Alegre pioneered
> >> a radical
> >> > > new
> >> > > > > >> > > technique called
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > "participatory budgeting." Each year, the
> >> city's 16
> >> > > regions
> >> > > > > >> > > conduct general
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > assemblies in which neighbors debate
> >> priorities for the
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > budget:
> >> > > > > >> > > school
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > construction, sewer repair, bridge building.
> >> The
> >> > > assemblies
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > create
>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
--
home these days?- and barbers (now doctors) stepped in to create a
profession. Perhaps this is another course we can squeeze into
education to combat the endless ads of the drug companies. I view
doctors/hospitals/drugs as a last resort.
On Sep 28, 9:31 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What medical advice, I thought we were talking about folk remedies or a
> poor mans medicine.
> Allan
> On Sep 29, 2012 3:04 AM, "James" <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Being a sucker for punishment when my wisdom tooth was ground and picked
> > out I smoked and drank a large fountain drink, it only took me a week of
> > dry socket to start thinking creatively. I used one of those little brown
> > bottle Liquid Skin over-the-counter treatments, it may have contained clove
> > oil (that is what I wanted at the time but would've settled for anything),
> > put a good gob on a q-tip and smear it in there. The alcohol gave instant
> > relief to the inflamed bone and a protective coat, the healing went fine
> > from there, not sure how it would do on cavities. This is NOT medical
> > advice, YMMV. ;-)
>
> > On 9/28/2012 10:05 AM, Allan H wrote:
>
> >> well when I could not afford a dentist in the states it keeped the pain
> >> at bay.
> >> Allan
>
> >> On Sep 28, 2012 2:37 PM, "rigsy03" <rigs...@yahoo.com
> >> <mailto:rigs...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
> >> Cloves might help with an ache but not with an extraction- it could
> >> cause infection. Best bet is a rinse of warm salt water to spur
> >> healing and keep food med. soft for a couple of weeks. Already moved
> >> up to ravioli! :-)
>
> >> On Sep 28, 4:20 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com
> >> <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >> > Cloves make a great against pain Rigsy. and as your years have
> >> taught you
> >> > .. this to will pass
> >> > Allan
>
> >> > On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 4:14 AM, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com
> >> <mailto:rigs...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
> >> > > The basic motive is competition and profit so corners are cut or
> >> > > falsified sometimes. Also, it is a game to sharp traders. And I
> >> think
> >> > > it goes further back than the Middle Ages- how about ancient
> >> > > mythologies? The trickster deities were warnings- "buyer beware".
>
> >> > > Somewhat related; "Money & Medicine"
> >> > >http://video.pbs.org/video/**2280765671<http://video.pbs.org/video/2280765671>
>
> >> > > Had a back molar pulled yesterday. My neighbor took me over,
> >> waited
> >> > > and drove me home- he is a dear. Advice: if one MUST smoke, use a
> >> > > cigarette holder away from the socket; follow advice about cold
> >> packs
> >> > > and pain meds; keep foods interesting like polenta with butter
> >> and
> >> > > parmesan, carrot-ginger soup, scrambled eggs, etc., avoiding
> >> > > extraction site and keep to a sane diet till healing is complete.
>
> >> > > On Sep 27, 6:10 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com
> >> <mailto:nwte...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >> > > > The 'official speak' of my postmodernism is 'Lakatosian
> >> paradigm in
> >> > > > decadence' - regulations are cheated. It's getting more
> >> difficult to
> >> > > > cheat in sport these days because of drug-testing, referees
> >> and the
> >> > > > video replay. Just as his was happening in sport, 'someone'
> >> decided
> >> > > > to let all the rules go to pot in finance. I had a very
> >> lovely friend
> >> > > > who cheated at Monopoly - the cheating being part of the fun
> >> of the
> >> > > > game with no damage done. My feelings are much like rigsy's
> >> - I just
> >> > > > think ethics require public scrutiny, ideology prevents this
> >> and we
> >> > > > could do the refereeing better. My guess is the problem is
> >> essentially
> >> > > > economics and business practices that are medieval and trapped
> >> in
> >> > > > animal genetics. Simples!
>
> >> > > > On 26 Sep, 07:44, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com
> >> <mailto:gabbyd...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >> > > > > Where do you feel Rigsy's stick of despair? She sounds very
> >> up to date
> >> > > > > to my ears, criticizing our fast unculture (modern positive
> >> keyword:
> >> > > > > sustainability).
>
> >> > > > > And Neil posted numbered to do lists in order save the
> >> world at least
> >> > > > > twice, as far as I remember. You would have liked them if
> >> they had
> >> > > > > sprung off your mind. ;)
>
> >> > > > > On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 2:21 AM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com
> >> <mailto:atewari2...@gmail.com>**> wrote:
> >> > > > > > Rigs, you seem to be beating here, there and everywhere
> >> with your
> >> > > stick of
> >> > > > > > despair ! Modernism has only changed the form of effects
> >> of our
> >> > > failures.
> >> > > > > > Even Neil's post-modern theory of ethics seems needlessly
> >> complex.
>
> >> > > > > > It's us. Period. Ethics requires people who are moral.
> >> Which, in my
> >> > > > > > perspective, translates as men who are evolved ...
> >> spiritually
> >> > > evolved ...
> >> > > > > > with whom, conscientiousness is supreme virtue.
>
> >> > > > > > Contemplation will take us back to that Truth, of which I
> >> tried to
> >> > > share not
> >> > > > > > so long ago.
>
> >> > > > > > Honesty is a corollary of truth. It's us. The society you
> >> are
> >> > > beating is us.
> >> > > > > > Technology and wealth are neutral and inert. If
> >> inebriation was in
> >> > > alcohol,
> >> > > > > > the bottles should dance !
>
> >> > > > > > On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 6:21:10 PM UTC+5:30,
> >> rigsy03 wrote:
>
> >> > > > > >> The ethics are already in place, Allan- they are just
> >> not practised.
> >> > > > > >> You could include "greedy" imperialistic nations,
> >> berserk cultures,
> >> > > > > >> grasping political parties. More's "Utopia" stressed
> >> humanism which
> >> > > is
> >> > > > > >> under stress due to science and technology today- the
> >> new darling.
>
> >> > > > > >> On Sep 24, 10:00 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com
> >> <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >> > > > > >> > Ethics are going to be definitely reinvented getting
> >> greeedy
> >> > > individuals
> >> > > > > >> > and corporations under control.
> >> > > > > >> > Allan
>
> >> > > > > >> > On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 2:59 PM, rigsy03
> >> <rigs...@yahoo.com <mailto:rigs...@yahoo.com>>
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > > > > >> > > A recent example: "Reinventing Ethics" by Howard
> >> Gardner
>
> >> >http://opinionator.blogs.**nytimes.com/2012/09/23/**
> >> reinventing-ethics/?s.<http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/23/reinventing-ethics/?s.>
> >> ..
>
> >> > > > > >> > > On Sep 24, 7:50 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com
> >> <mailto:rigs...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
> >> > > > > >> > > > The government decides how to spend/mis-spend the
> >> taxes and
> >> > > fees
> >> > > > > >> > > > they
> >> > > > > >> > > > raise because we thought it wise at one time to
> >> give them that
> >> > > > > >> > > > power.
> >> > > > > >> > > > Banks have altered their function and don't forget
> >> credit
> >> > > cards as
> >> > > > > >> > > > unsecured loans. Somehow, my mind drifted to Plato's
> >> > > "Republic"- but
> >> > > > > >> > > > there are many examples of attempts to organize
> >> society- none
> >> > > of
> >> > > > > >> > > > which, imho, has done a very good job. There is an
> >> impossible
> >> > > lack
> >> > > > > >> > > > of
> >> > > > > >> > > > control particularly since the advent of Liberalism.
>
> >> > > > > >> > > > On Sep 22, 6:29 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com
> >> <mailto:nwte...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >> > > > > >> > > > > I think the germ of the idea is in this Don.
> >> All money
> >> > > > > >> > > > > essentially
> >> > > > > >> > > > > comes from government - what we get from banks
> >> is debt.
> >> > > Street-up
> >> > > > > >> > > > > decision-making isn't all of it as rigsy points
> >> out.
>
> >> > > > > >> > > > > On 22 Sep, 12:26, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com
> >> <mailto:rigs...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > You still have to deal with priorities on that
> >> list,
> >> > > however.
> >> > > > > >> > > Stadiums
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > might trump infrastructure.
>
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > On Sep 22, 5:22 am, Don Johnson
> >> <daj...@gmail.com <mailto:daj...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >> >http://professional.wsj.com/**article/**
> >> SB1000087239639044416580457800**851.<http://professional.wsj.com/article/SB1000087239639044416580457800851.>
> >> ..
>
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > This is what I'm talking about!
> >> Decentralization is
> >> > > key. I
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > believe
> >> > > > > >> > > this is
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > your busy bees at work Neil.
>
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > "Peer networks don't have to involve digital
> >> technology.
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > Twenty
> >> > > > > >> > > years ago,
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > the Brazilian city of Porto Alegre pioneered
> >> a radical
> >> > > new
> >> > > > > >> > > technique called
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > "participatory budgeting." Each year, the
> >> city's 16
> >> > > regions
> >> > > > > >> > > conduct general
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > assemblies in which neighbors debate
> >> priorities for the
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > budget:
> >> > > > > >> > > school
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > construction, sewer repair, bridge building.
> >> The
> >> > > assemblies
> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > create
>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
--
Re: Mind's Eye Re: Peer Networking
Rigsy I really feel sorry for those people who are hide from their responsibilities especially for greed.. the soul in this human vehicle has to return to the mandala where their greed will be held in account.. if it is perfectly legal is a viable excuse well all I can say is good luck.
Allan
--
(
-- On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 2:37 PM, rigsy03 <rigsy03@yahoo.com> wrote:
But people can "hide" their wealth in the USA anyway via trusts,
certain investments, taking advantage of laws in other states for tax
purposes. These and other methods are perfectly legal.
On Sep 28, 9:02 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> that is a cool idea preventing people from hiding to avoid paying taxes,,
>
> evil wicked laugh
> Allan
--> On Sep 28, 2012 2:34 PM, "rigsy03" <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > P.S. Re: that video that showed over-testing- sometimes dangerous or
> > nonsense- but I don't remember if they mentioned that the medical
> > profession is terrified of malpractice suits.
>
> > Greece wants their super- rich who have moved to other nations to pay
> > taxes. Can they extradite them?
>
> > On Sep 27, 9:14 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > The basic motive is competition and profit so corners are cut or
> > > falsified sometimes. Also, it is a game to sharp traders. And I think
> > > it goes further back than the Middle Ages- how about ancient
> > > mythologies? The trickster deities were warnings- "buyer beware".
>
> > > Somewhat related; "Money & Medicine"
> >http://video.pbs.org/video/2280765671
>
> > > Had a back molar pulled yesterday. My neighbor took me over, waited
> > > and drove me home- he is a dear. Advice: if one MUST smoke, use a
> > > cigarette holder away from the socket; follow advice about cold packs
> > > and pain meds; keep foods interesting like polenta with butter and
> > > parmesan, carrot-ginger soup, scrambled eggs, etc., avoiding
> > > extraction site and keep to a sane diet till healing is complete.
>
> > > On Sep 27, 6:10 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > The 'official speak' of my postmodernism is 'Lakatosian paradigm in
> > > > decadence' - regulations are cheated. It's getting more difficult to
> > > > cheat in sport these days because of drug-testing, referees and the
> > > > video replay. Just as his was happening in sport, 'someone' decided
> > > > to let all the rules go to pot in finance. I had a very lovely friend
> > > > who cheated at Monopoly - the cheating being part of the fun of the
> > > > game with no damage done. My feelings are much like rigsy's - I just
> > > > think ethics require public scrutiny, ideology prevents this and we
> > > > could do the refereeing better. My guess is the problem is essentially
> > > > economics and business practices that are medieval and trapped in
> > > > animal genetics. Simples!
>
> > > > On 26 Sep, 07:44, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Where do you feel Rigsy's stick of despair? She sounds very up to
> > date
> > > > > to my ears, criticizing our fast unculture (modern positive keyword:
> > > > > sustainability).
>
> > > > > And Neil posted numbered to do lists in order save the world at least
> > > > > twice, as far as I remember. You would have liked them if they had
> > > > > sprung off your mind. ;)
>
> > > > > On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 2:21 AM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > Rigs, you seem to be beating here, there and everywhere with your
> > stick of
> > > > > > despair ! Modernism has only changed the form of effects of our
> > failures.
> > > > > > Even Neil's post-modern theory of ethics seems needlessly complex.
>
> > > > > > It's us. Period. Ethics requires people who are moral. Which, in my
> > > > > > perspective, translates as men who are evolved ... spiritually
> > evolved ...
> > > > > > with whom, conscientiousness is supreme virtue.
>
> > > > > > Contemplation will take us back to that Truth, of which I tried to
> > share not
> > > > > > so long ago.
>
> > > > > > Honesty is a corollary of truth. It's us. The society you are
> > beating is us.
> > > > > > Technology and wealth are neutral and inert. If inebriation was in
> > alcohol,
> > > > > > the bottles should dance !
>
> > > > > > On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 6:21:10 PM UTC+5:30, rigsy03 wrote:
>
> > > > > >> The ethics are already in place, Allan- they are just not
> > practised.
> > > > > >> You could include "greedy" imperialistic nations, berserk
> > cultures,
> > > > > >> grasping political parties. More's "Utopia" stressed humanism
> > which is
> > > > > >> under stress due to science and technology today- the new darling.
>
> > > > > >> On Sep 24, 10:00 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >> > Ethics are going to be definitely reinvented getting greeedy
> > individuals
> > > > > >> > and corporations under control.
> > > > > >> > Allan
>
> > > > > >> > On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 2:59 PM, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > >> > > A recent example: "Reinventing Ethics" by Howard Gardner
>
> >http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/23/reinventing-ethics/?s...
>
> > > > > >> > > On Sep 24, 7:50 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > The government decides how to spend/mis-spend the taxes and
> > fees
> > > > > >> > > > they
> > > > > >> > > > raise because we thought it wise at one time to give them
> > that
> > > > > >> > > > power.
> > > > > >> > > > Banks have altered their function and don't forget credit
> > cards as
> > > > > >> > > > unsecured loans. Somehow, my mind drifted to Plato's
> > "Republic"- but
> > > > > >> > > > there are many examples of attempts to organize society-
> > none of
> > > > > >> > > > which, imho, has done a very good job. There is an
> > impossible lack
> > > > > >> > > > of
> > > > > >> > > > control particularly since the advent of Liberalism.
>
> > > > > >> > > > On Sep 22, 6:29 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > >> > > > > I think the germ of the idea is in this Don. All money
> > > > > >> > > > > essentially
> > > > > >> > > > > comes from government - what we get from banks is debt.
> > Street-up
> > > > > >> > > > > decision-making isn't all of it as rigsy points out.
>
> > > > > >> > > > > On 22 Sep, 12:26, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > >> > > > > > You still have to deal with priorities on that list,
> > however.
> > > > > >> > > Stadiums
> > > > > >> > > > > > might trump infrastructure.
>
> > > > > >> > > > > > On Sep 22, 5:22 am, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >http://professional.wsj.com/article/SB1000087239639044416580457800851...
>
> > > > > >> > > > > > > This is what I'm talking about! Decentralization is
> > key. I
> > > > > >> > > > > > > believe
> > > > > >> > > this is
> > > > > >> > > > > > > your busy bees at work Neil.
>
> > > > > >> > > > > > > "Peer networks don't have to involve digital
> > technology.
> > > > > >> > > > > > > Twenty
> > > > > >> > > years ago,
> > > > > >> > > > > > > the Brazilian city of Porto Alegre pioneered a
> > radical new
> > > > > >> > > technique called
> > > > > >> > > > > > > "participatory budgeting." Each year, the city's 16
> > regions
> > > > > >> > > conduct general
> > > > > >> > > > > > > assemblies in which neighbors debate priorities for
> > the
> > > > > >> > > > > > > budget:
> > > > > >> > > school
> > > > > >> > > > > > > construction, sewer repair, bridge building. The
> > assemblies
> > > > > >> > > > > > > create
> > > > > >> > > a ranked
> > > > > >> > > > > > > list of projects, and the government disperses funds
> > > > > >> > > > > > > accordingly.
> > > > > >> > > The money
> > > > > >> > > > > > > comes from the state, but the decision of what to
> > fund comes
> > > > > >> > > > > > > from
> > > > > >> > > the
> > > > > >> > > > > > > street."
>
> > > > > >> > > > > > > dj- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > >> > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
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> > > > > >> > > > - Show quoted text -
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> > > > > >> > > --
>
> > > > > >> > --
> > > > > >> > (
> > > > > >> > )
> > > > > >> > |_D Allan
>
> > > > > >> > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> > > > > >> > I am a Natural Airgunner -
>
> > > > > >> > Full of Hot Air & Ready To Expel It Quickly.- Hide quoted text
> > -
>
> > > > > >> > - Show quoted text -
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> > > > > > --- Hide quoted text -
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> > > - Show quoted text -
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|_D Allan
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
I am a Natural Airgunner -
Full of Hot Air & Ready To Expel It Quickly.
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