Re: Mind's Eye Consciousness

Animals have a great abillity to escape.  I tend to keep Joey away from children as they do not have full control ofor know their muscle strenght.. joey's recommends keeping kids away ..she is cute and cuddlt at same time can be hurt very easily.. her bones though strong are not very big.


تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwterry@gmail.com>
To: minds-eye@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Consciousness

I see kids being very cruel to animals and themselves as well RP.   I agree on the demons and believe them real in some ways - clearly in effect.  And the insanity.

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 11:54:36 PM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

Mostly we don't even think of awareness , it is just taken for granted. Little children don't know the term but interact with others and know automatically what is conscious and what is not. They can easily break their toys but not their pups , they are ever so affectionate with the living and cruel with the inanimate. If we continue to think of ourselves as spirits the confusion will remain , we must think of ourselves as organisms and the First Cause as the Spirit. So we are all mortals and it is only the Spirit which is immortal , then and then only can we have a semblance of sanity. It does not take much to go beyond sanity , the breaking point is very near. In many instances I can be called insane when I talk of ridding ourselves of the demons and think about solutions as if the governments of the world even know that I exist.

On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 4:46 AM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:

With the atoms or whatever particles we admit to, it's not so much whether they have awareness but that what we are aware of is less than what is going on.  What then of human interactions!

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 10:38:03 PM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

I don't know , Allan , what is aware and what is not. I can know only that I am aware and for the rest I can infer that they are so. Maybe even atoms are aware.

On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 10:31 PM, <allanh1946@gmail.com> wrote:

Why does a state of awareness have to be restricted to organìc matter RP?

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <1234rp@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Consciousness

I don't understand all this talk of consciousness as if it were an entity , to me consciousness is simply a state i.e. awareness , and what is aware is the organism. It is like  a sweet which is pleasurable but is pleasure an entity , no it is not , it is simply a quality and the sweet is the entity. So the question is what is consciousness? It is a state of the organism like the dream-state , sleep-state and awake-state. And awareness is strongest in the awake-state of the organism and in the sleep-state awareness is very nominal. So what we are trying to define is a quality and not an entity , so how do you define a quality , can you define pain , pleasure , sweet , sour and such other abstract things , no you cannot!

So as definitions go we can only say that consciousness is a state of awareness of an organism and is an attribute which can be understood and not defined.

On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 11:18 AM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:

That's all true RP and part of what many of us are conscious of - though I think governments beyond thinking.  Whether we know what consciousness is or not, we often talk of needed change in it.  I'd go for creating something that removed us from grim material competition - but some have it we would lose all motivation in such a state.

We avoid the real morality, perhaps by talk of unattainable abstracts like a definition of consciousness.  Good start RP.  Maybe Allan will have something to say once he's finished chewing his rock?  I think we need to go deep green on materials and far more compassionate spiritually.  If this actually happened in our lifetimes we'd know consciousness can change.  Love is fine, but expecting it from horrible people is usually not a good strategy.

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 1:18:35 AM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

Neil , since we know that it is our biology which is acting out and that what we are doing it is the gogs which are working shouldn't we be more tolerant , think of ways and means to address questions of terror ,rage , etc. with a more humanitarian way than to meet violence with violence , shouldn't we meet hate with love and understanding knowing that our brethren know not what they are doing , shouldn't we be more compassionate , is retribution the only way , force the only answer , no Neil , our Governments must think of other options.

When our children do wrong we try to help them by counselling because we love them , couldn't we do the same with others knowing them to be our ignorant brethren , couldn't there be some way to make them realize that their philosophy is wrong , their attitude wrong , we must try and seek alternatives otherwise this monster of terror will never die but rise a hundred times with each drop of bloodshed.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 7:37 PM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:

It could even be RP that some disaster in, say, 50 years, which a little change now might help us avert, brings the end of humans.

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 12:57:09 PM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

What would be there if there were no laws of nature --mayhem everywhere , chaos , destruction , anarchy. What if all laws fail ,annihilation--and it might be that the universe will end that way.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 6:35 AM, RP Singh <1234rp@gmail.com> wrote:

Suppose there had been no consciousness and the entire world had been there but all unconscious , what would be the Truth? Just death , nothing else. Consciousness is what makes life , a proof that there is something which exists , Existence itself and not death. Look at the stars , the solar system , if it had self-direction where would we be? It all obeys laws and that is the reason for order in the universe and not chaos. What would humanity have been if we were not bound by our nature , no laws of biology , psychology , etc. , no predictability , no comfort that we would return to our homes at night ,no assurance that we would return home from work . Unpredictability is still there but it is minor , mostly there is satisfaction and assurance of well-being.

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Re: Mind's Eye Consciousness

I know Allan.  If something like avatar ideas come from entanglement and we could show how, less faith in what they have to say would be needed than in usual sales pitches claiming a direct line to god.  The topic of avatars has some parallel with memes and the competition of ideas through time.  Some of us are inclined to think those who speak with god are lying.  

Sue Linda seems to have some interesting contributions.  The possibility of having a more child-like consciousness should appeal to both of us now we have worked out the Earth is ruled by ants!

On Saturday, 31 January 2015 08:40:30 UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:

The Avatar in the Hindu sense is a person with a special connect to God. Pretty simple..  noy of the science or movie concept.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwterry@gmail.com>
To: minds-eye@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 12:04 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Consciousness

My physics is only layman stuff, though I feel some religious connections in it Allan.  Biology is currently into a framework of co-evolution that can sound like various 'battles in heaven' stories. a sort of arms' race.  I can say a lot of experiments that work and give us good explanations leave me with questions that might be put as 'where and how is consciousness outside me operating'.  'Spartacus' ants that rebel against the brood parasite by killing their young are dooming themselves, yet helping their own species.  We have some idea of the chemicals involved - yet what of the inter-connectedness of it all?

I generally don't like religion - but what bit of it would I mean, as the term is as subject to multiple meaning as consciousness?  Science may be some kind of avatar in Allan's sense.  We are about to allow so-called three-person babies in the UK.  The work concerns women who pass on lethal and disabling mitochondrial genes.  Let's say Jane has these and thus can't have healthy children.  Now she could have an egg fertilised by her partner and placed in a cell from a second woman without the mitochondrial problems.  The vast majority of any offspring would genetically come from the parents, with a little from the lovely donor and passed on to future generations.  I prefer the science avatar in such decision making.  Criticism from our two main churches is actually rather reasonable - is it safe, do we really know what we are doing - a long way from some of the vile anti-contraception and abortion stuff around that seeks to make feminism a kind of evil mediated against life.  But surely we don't want cranky men wearing skirts and swinging incense making these decisions?

RP is a bit of an avatar on peace, Gabby and Molly in different ways (at least to me).  Entanglement resolution might give us more idea on how ideas themselves come about, what the role of such sweeping stories as Jesus and the rest is.  Argument often seems to me to be rather like sitting down talking sweet things on peace with Genghis Khan on the other side of the river.  We have to make avatars work where they don't, perhaps by better holographic projection more aware of competing and cooperative forces.  Questions of our own role in creation are involved.  Thoughts seem to have no substance, yet arise in it.  In short, help me out someone!

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 6:48:06 PM UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:

Could quantum entanglement explain avatars like Jesus, Buddha and others?

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwterry@gmail.com>
To: minds-eye@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Consciousness

All sorts of quantum mysteries remain unsatisfactorily resolved, but maybe the rest would succumb if entanglement does. Entanglement occurs in systems with widely separated parts that share a common history; a measurement of one of the parts reveals what you will find out when you measure its distant relative. Entanglement is a fact of nature, well-established by experiment. It suggests that time and space do not constrain quantum phenomena the way they do ordinary human activity. Among the latest intriguing aspects of entanglement to be studied involves black holes. It seems that black holes can be entangled, which apparently is equivalent to their being connected by a wormhole. Related work suggests that space, time and gravity are all part of a vast quantum entanglement network. Since both the evolution of networks and quantum entanglement fit nicely into game theory, solving all sorts of mysteries might boil down to viewing the world from a game-theoretical perspective. But maybe that will still be too hard for human brains — it might take advanced artificial intelligence, which, in turn, might be created with the help of some version of quantum game theory.  

In M-theory we are the shadows on Plato's famous wall. The `room' is some larger, five-dimensional spacetime and our four-dimensional world is just the boundary of this larger space. If we try to move away from the wall, we are moving into an extra dimension of space - a fifth dimension. In fact, people have recently been trying to think of ways in which we might actually experimentally `probe' this fifth dimension.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1407.6552

Looking in perspective, the historical development of tensor network methods has followed different periods.  One could talk of an initial "statistical mechanics" era underpinned by results in exactly solvable models around the 60's and 70's. After that period we could say that a "DMRG era" started in the 90's with the explosion of White's DMRG for 1d systems and subsequent applications. Later on, around 2000's one could talk about the advent of a "quantum information era" with the many results on many-body entanglement and further TN developments.  As for today, one could perhaps talk about a new "quantum gravity era" of TNs that is just starting. In fact, it looks like important physical objects, such as curved space-times and quantum Hamiltonians, emerge naturally from entanglement in TN states via holography.

I don't know if anyone will have read this far.  Gabby's Theorem of logical dogs chasing their tails will appeal more to some.  Consciousness without such complex maths as tensors may be preventing us being conscious of the universe of shadows we actually walk in.  We may not recognise ourselves in this 'mirror' and be as self-aware as we think a dog is when it doesn't recognise itself in one.

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 10:40:27 AM UTC, archytas wrote:

Are you offering to be Director of Chris' experimental programme Allan?

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 9:05:07 AM UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:

Experimentation requires direction.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Jenkins <digitalprecipice@gmail.com>
To: Minds-Eye <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 7:13 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Consciousness

*laughing* I don't know about "expert" as much as "willing to experiment". 

On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 12:11 AM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:

So imagine us all as a jigsaw, each with a piece to contribute to the whole picture.  Mean not to share - though when you run games with undergrads, the sharing penny usually only drops after you tell them it was responsible for their failure in the exercise.  Smug solipsism rules.  Though what a jigsaw might do with a full picture sounds a bit limiting, jigsaws not having consciousness unless made from Allan's rock.

What, by the way, is the consciousness of a bunch of social spiders bringing down a bird for dinner?

Chemicals affect consciousness - Chris is the expert on human experimentation here - in animals this is affected by parasites and chemicals.  The rubber-masked aliens who rule this planet moved on from chemical control years ago and use the easier to deliver propaganda now.  This has side effects, which is why Allan is eating rock as he slides down the glacier

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 2:46:37 AM UTC, archytas wrote:

When things are all perspective one wonders why we talk at all.  Let the baby grip the burning coal - it's all perspective.  We have no right to do that educational stuff.  Nagel did the stuff on the rock in 1974, but chose to ask us to imagine what it was to be a bat.  I understand his class threw themselves out of the nearest window and to go to a cave party.  It was a fourth floor lecture and none survived, owing to a miscalculation on the speed of evolution in providing wings on the way down.  I survived owing to perspective.  Say bat to me and I think cricket.

What would consciousness be if each perspectivalist was aware they would be taken from the hive and shot unless they couldn't convince the others of their view?

On Thursday, 29 January 2015 15:07:03 UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:

lol  oh my gosh I in trouble..
Actually the roots of conciousness go way back RP ..  like most things it really is a matter of perspective.  My perspective of God as I understand him comes from my childhood and a series of psychotic episodes (none involving drugs) I chose to call spiritual experiences..
It is all a matter of perspective .. my personal understanding my perspective.

Consciousness has many levels most is best guess just what we precieve.. there are more questions than answers  maybe starting with just what is the consciousness of a rock..  take my Rock carried the weight a glacier as it dragged him down the mountain.. it shaped his character of strength as it wore him down to a mere 1.4 kgs  I can only imagine his mass when his journey began.
Just what is Rock's perspective on consciousness?

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <1234rp@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Consciousness

Allan , when you know so much about such things why don't you give a valid definition of the concept "Consciousness". And it was Chris who was calling it Mumbo Gumbo and not I. I think that I have given quite an honest definition of  such a subjective concept as definitions go. It is upto others to give a better meaning. If I have started the thread it doesn't mean that I alone have to satisfy the group.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 1:53 PM, <allanh1946@gmail.com> wrote:

There are many many levels consciousness.  As rock who knows all about the long hard grind after carrying the weight of a glacier on his back. Now he passes his time quietly on my workbench.
Unfortunately the dictionary is the common starting point. From where you have to begin building. Chris is right..  your definion is simply not thought out or developed. Mumbo Gumbo does not cut it in an honest discussion. 

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----

From: RP Singh <1234rp@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Consciousness

Allan , it is consciousness. What you are seeing the dictionary for is something completely different.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 1:15 PM, <allanh1946@gmail.com> wrote:

That is a very possible reality..  the problem is the evil genie making us think we have consciousness would mean the evil woild have to possess the attributes he is making is think we possess.
It us said more happened in the 1st second of creation than all the time has passed since.

Commonly in the belief system the overall consciousness is refered to as God (or some variation of the name). Due to free will given to all souls and beings the conciousness is ever expanding like the rest of the ùniverse demonstrates.. 

As for a common definition one needs to turn to a dictionary.
CONSCIENTIOUSNESS

noun (uncountable)
• The state or characteristic of being conscientious.

CONSCIENTIOUS

adjective
• Thorough, careful, or vigilant; implies a desire to do a task well.

 

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwterry@gmail.com>
To: minds-eye@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 5:58 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Consciousness

We may have no consciousness and an evil genie might be making us think we have.  I find inferred consciousness is easily removed by a heavy blow with a pick-axe handle.

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 3:10:05 AM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

Consciousness in others is inferred and not known or proved so it might be that even atoms of elements have consciousness. I cannot even prove that you have consciousness it is merely inferred that you have it.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 7:02 AM, Chris Jenkins <digitalprecipice@gmail.com> wrote:

Why do we have to be satisfied with your explanation when we haven't even determined what that means?

You began a thread called consciousness, and then won't even take the first steps to try to establish a common ground on the idea?

Let's start with the simple question: do you believe plants have consciousness?

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 8:18 PM, RP Singh <1234rp@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't think you will get an answer to this in the near future and maybe not in your lifetime , and so we have to be satisfied with my explanation -- it is an attribute of life , a real one , and not jumbled up.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 6:42 AM, Chris Jenkins <digitalprecipice@gmail.com> wrote:

Moogle-de-poogledy is an attribute of life and needs no further description.

Do you see why that's not an effective line of conversation?

What is conciousness? Do plants have it? Does it require sentience?

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 8:10 PM, RP Singh <1234rp@gmail.com> wrote:

Consciousness is an attribute of life and needs no further description. Without consciousness there would have been no life , and so it is life itself.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 6:37 AM, Chris Jenkins <digitalprecipice@gmail.com> wrote:

Just so we're all on the same page, can you go ahead and define exactly what a consciousness is?

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 8:05 PM, RP Singh <1234rp@gmail.com> wrote:

Suppose there had been no consciousness and the entire world had been there but all unconscious , what would be the Truth? Just death , nothing else. Consciousness is what makes life , a proof that there is something which exists , Existence itself and not death. Look at the stars , the solar system , if it had self-direction where would we be? It all obeys laws and that is the reason for order in the universe and not chaos. What would humanity have been if we were not bound by our nature , no laws of biology , psychology , etc. , no predictability , no comfort that we would return to our homes at night ,no assurance that we would return home from work . Unpredictability is still there but it is minor , mostly there is satisfaction and assurance of well-being.

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