Artists & Celebries & Entertainment

Re: Mind's Eye What really lies in simple moral positions?

2012-02-02T11:37:00.001-08:00

I just read Vam's comments are right on,, if I could have only one wish for mankind that would be it. "Freedom from corruption".. (sigh;; To dream the impossible dream...)

It could be easy, but what can I say,, that is not the idea or response of the top men or at least that what they appear to avoid at all costs.

Allan

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Vam <atewari2007@gmail.com> wrote:

Freedom from corruption is actually the easiest of things to achieve.
The top man needs to honest, fair, sincere, secure and sharing.

On Feb 2, 6:39 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Much to agree with on what we might call fudge and mudge. Things
> certainly seem to have become much worse as the business model and its
> people have moved in. What I want to know more about is what
> facilitates the corruption and, of course, what might bring it to an
> end. This should be a key issue in organisational design, but anti-
> corruption becomes a self-serving bureaucracy in-itself, often
> preventing the actual desired purpose.
>
> One of the naive issues ejucation is replete with is teaching the
> right way to do things without reference to what goes on in actual
> work situations and power-relations. Many of us respond with some
> distress to standard philosophical considerations where the argument
> made is only possible because of what is excluded. In business
> ejucation this is referred to as the learning transfer problem - these
> days no one dares to say the 'learning material' itself is a load of
> tosh (shades of the worst of religion). My mature students, always a
> source of inspiration, have often said they enjoy being able to debate
> critical concerns and that they hope I don't expect them to take this
> into the workplace where this would be an effective job-suicide note.
>
> Whistle-blowers are now being paid off through compromise agreements
> even in bodies responsible for supervising complaints and standards.
> "Harmony" is a hair spray rigsy! Not a bad metaphor for what gets
> sprayed over the problems. My feeling is the rotten orchard needs
> something stronger. The situation is 'Emperor's New Clothes', but I'm
> afraid the child's voice ending and everything fine after that can't
> work.
>
> I'm not concerned much on a personal basis, largely on what Molly
> says. I suspect the stuff of this corruption prevents almost all
> practical argument and is what science excludes from its
> considerations.
>
> On Feb 2, 12:32 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yes- it is about harmony- understanding it and finding it.
>
> > On Feb 2, 5:44 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I can see that my sense of morality has changed over the years along
> > > with my relationship to life. Yet at the core of it, is a sense of
> > > self respect that allowed me to walk away from a couple of decent
> > > incomes and destructive human relationships because of the culture of
> > > war they brought with them. Somehow, expressing truth in the moment
> > > was never enough, the war raged on. In retrospect, I can see that
> > > what I was walking to when walking away was far better, but at the
> > > time, the path was forming as my foot hit the exit doorway in the
> > > walking away. I've never been comfortable in that scenario, but I can
> > > now see it has payed off for me in the long run. It always starts
> > > with listening to my gut.
>
> > > An interesting time we live in, with our education, political and
> > > financial systems no longer serving us. With eyes blurred from Rome
> > > burning, it is hard to see what is coming for us. What I do know is
> > > we are a resilient lot, and something will. The education system does
> > > suck, my youngest is still in University and has always struggled with
> > > the system. He will get his BA in May with honors, something he never
> > > experienced in the younger grades. Somehow, he made it work out of a
> > > desire for a good life.
>
> > > Myself, I found a way to make it work while still doing my own thing
> > > in the University, but after being told by the English Dept to find a
> > > different course of study. I was lucky that there was a more creative
> > > "alternative" available or I would probably have quit. I did see
> > > (what seemed to me) the brightest teachers struggling with the
> > > bureaucracy of their profession. But it seems to me we all struggle
> > > with that, even my husband, the Chiropractor, who is in practice by
> > > himself. If we live in community, we adapt to the rules, regs, norms,
> > > laws, while expressing ourselves the best we can. Seems to me that
> > > finding a lasting harmony there is the real trick, no matter the
> > > details of it.
>
> > > On Feb 1, 3:54 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I had a sense of doing what seemed right as a cop Allan - even though
> > > > most situations were difficult to see a right side in. The academy
> > > > stinks as in the State of Denmark and I get to feel the only thing is
> > > > to retreat to the margins. My working guess is that it's
> > > > "meritocracy" that sucks.
>
> > > > On Feb 1, 8:30 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > not being obnoxious, The that comes to my mind is just what is your
> > > > > understanding of morality and how it is applied in ones life.
> > > > > Understanding morality on a personal level can be quite difficult,
> > > > > especially if you want it to make sense.
> > > > > Allan
>
> > > > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 7:39 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > I hope to spend the next 5 years "not teaching" - a difficult
> > > > > > financial decision as this is my 'ready-to-hand' income. Some years
> > > > > > back I tried to take and stick to a decision not to teach 'ideological
> > > > > > rot' - broadly the mainstream of business and economic subjects. This
> > > > > > might seem a fairly easy personal, moral decision; yet it isn't.
>
> > > > > > The interesting issues don't concern the easy morality of doing what's
> > > > > > right. One can find plenty of material, from Critical Theory through
> > > > > > to deconstructive approaches to behaviour and critical psychology -
> > > > > > and once, very critical management books like Peter Anthony's
> > > > > > 'Foundation of Management' and sort programmes out on the basis of
> > > > > > these. Thus one could teach material one might feel credible and
> > > > > > stretching, broadly aimed at students learning critical reasoning. I
> > > > > > do offer modules based around writers like David Graeber, Steve Keen
> > > > > > and modern blogs at the moment.
>
> > > > > > What muddies the waters is a combination of streamlining costs in HE
> > > > > > and more or less the extirpation of syllabus control by academics,
> > > > > > along with a massive dilution of student brain-power and the
> > > > > > connection of student success with the numbers we pass. This
> > > > > > situation makes moral judgement very difficult and academe has
> > > > > > collapsed altogether as a moral place.
>
> > > > > > Economics has long been taught as a science - an utter farce - and
> > > > > > management theories are only fit for ridicule (excellence, kwality and
> > > > > > anything with 'strategic' in it). The world works around power and
> > > > > > rhetoric, and this is the only real content of such "theories".
>
> > > > > > The madness that underlies all this is that we never address what the
> > > > > > real issues might be. Accumulated wealth is clearly a problem for
> > > > > > democracy as it inevitably means some will benefit by doing nothing
> > > > > > while others work and that the wealth will be used to influence
> > > > > > politics and the very ground of commercial competition. Yet with no
> > > > > > consideration of this we leap into "theorising" in a system that
> > > > > > applauds the creation of excess wealth in few hands as a 'good'.
>
> > > > > > One can try to teach what one believes is true and in simple morality
> > > > > > this is what one ought to do. The actual situation is much more
> > > > > > complex. The jobs available in teaching (apart from a few little
> > > > > > eddies I have occupied) are nearly all to do with teaching the rot,
> > > > > > because this is the cheapest way universities can devise. The moral
> > > > > > choice of not teaching rot changes to a choice not to teach (and get
> > > > > > paid) - partly because your own students will be examined on the rot
> > > > > > because you are teaching as part of a 'team' and all students are set
> > > > > > the same questions as part of standardisation. If you don't teach the
> > > > > > muck you put your students at a disadvantage.
>
> > > > > > I see no answers to the moral conundrum - other than just to walk
> > > > > > away, putting distance between oneself and the madness.
>
> > > > > --
> > > > > (
> > > > > )
> > > > > |_D Allan
>
> > > > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -

--
(

)

|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Re: Mind's Eye What really lies in simple moral positions?

2012-02-02T08:33:00.000-08:00

Freedom from corruption is actually the easiest of things to achieve.
The top man needs to honest, fair, sincere, secure and sharing.

On Feb 2, 6:39 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Much to agree with on what we might call fudge and mudge. Things
> certainly seem to have become much worse as the business model and its
> people have moved in. What I want to know more about is what
> facilitates the corruption and, of course, what might bring it to an
> end. This should be a key issue in organisational design, but anti-
> corruption becomes a self-serving bureaucracy in-itself, often
> preventing the actual desired purpose.
>
> One of the naive issues ejucation is replete with is teaching the
> right way to do things without reference to what goes on in actual
> work situations and power-relations. Many of us respond with some
> distress to standard philosophical considerations where the argument
> made is only possible because of what is excluded. In business
> ejucation this is referred to as the learning transfer problem - these
> days no one dares to say the 'learning material' itself is a load of
> tosh (shades of the worst of religion). My mature students, always a
> source of inspiration, have often said they enjoy being able to debate
> critical concerns and that they hope I don't expect them to take this
> into the workplace where this would be an effective job-suicide note.
>
> Whistle-blowers are now being paid off through compromise agreements
> even in bodies responsible for supervising complaints and standards.
> "Harmony" is a hair spray rigsy! Not a bad metaphor for what gets
> sprayed over the problems. My feeling is the rotten orchard needs
> something stronger. The situation is 'Emperor's New Clothes', but I'm
> afraid the child's voice ending and everything fine after that can't
> work.
>
> I'm not concerned much on a personal basis, largely on what Molly
> says. I suspect the stuff of this corruption prevents almost all
> practical argument and is what science excludes from its
> considerations.
>
> On Feb 2, 12:32 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yes- it is about harmony- understanding it and finding it.
>
> > On Feb 2, 5:44 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I can see that my sense of morality has changed over the years along
> > > with my relationship to life. Yet at the core of it, is a sense of
> > > self respect that allowed me to walk away from a couple of decent
> > > incomes and destructive human relationships because of the culture of
> > > war they brought with them. Somehow, expressing truth in the moment
> > > was never enough, the war raged on. In retrospect, I can see that
> > > what I was walking to when walking away was far better, but at the
> > > time, the path was forming as my foot hit the exit doorway in the
> > > walking away. I've never been comfortable in that scenario, but I can
> > > now see it has payed off for me in the long run. It always starts
> > > with listening to my gut.
>
> > > An interesting time we live in, with our education, political and
> > > financial systems no longer serving us. With eyes blurred from Rome
> > > burning, it is hard to see what is coming for us. What I do know is
> > > we are a resilient lot, and something will. The education system does
> > > suck, my youngest is still in University and has always struggled with
> > > the system. He will get his BA in May with honors, something he never
> > > experienced in the younger grades. Somehow, he made it work out of a
> > > desire for a good life.
>
> > > Myself, I found a way to make it work while still doing my own thing
> > > in the University, but after being told by the English Dept to find a
> > > different course of study. I was lucky that there was a more creative
> > > "alternative" available or I would probably have quit. I did see
> > > (what seemed to me) the brightest teachers struggling with the
> > > bureaucracy of their profession. But it seems to me we all struggle
> > > with that, even my husband, the Chiropractor, who is in practice by
> > > himself. If we live in community, we adapt to the rules, regs, norms,
> > > laws, while expressing ourselves the best we can. Seems to me that
> > > finding a lasting harmony there is the real trick, no matter the
> > > details of it.
>
> > > On Feb 1, 3:54 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I had a sense of doing what seemed right as a cop Allan - even though
> > > > most situations were difficult to see a right side in. The academy
> > > > stinks as in the State of Denmark and I get to feel the only thing is
> > > > to retreat to the margins. My working guess is that it's
> > > > "meritocracy" that sucks.
>
> > > > On Feb 1, 8:30 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > not being obnoxious, The that comes to my mind is just what is your
> > > > > understanding of morality and how it is applied in ones life.
> > > > > Understanding morality on a personal level can be quite difficult,
> > > > > especially if you want it to make sense.
> > > > > Allan
>
> > > > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 7:39 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > I hope to spend the next 5 years "not teaching" - a difficult
> > > > > > financial decision as this is my 'ready-to-hand' income. Some years
> > > > > > back I tried to take and stick to a decision not to teach 'ideological
> > > > > > rot' - broadly the mainstream of business and economic subjects. This
> > > > > > might seem a fairly easy personal, moral decision; yet it isn't.
>
> > > > > > The interesting issues don't concern the easy morality of doing what's
> > > > > > right. One can find plenty of material, from Critical Theory through
> > > > > > to deconstructive approaches to behaviour and critical psychology -
> > > > > > and once, very critical management books like Peter Anthony's
> > > > > > 'Foundation of Management' and sort programmes out on the basis of
> > > > > > these. Thus one could teach material one might feel credible and
> > > > > > stretching, broadly aimed at students learning critical reasoning. I
> > > > > > do offer modules based around writers like David Graeber, Steve Keen
> > > > > > and modern blogs at the moment.
>
> > > > > > What muddies the waters is a combination of streamlining costs in HE
> > > > > > and more or less the extirpation of syllabus control by academics,
> > > > > > along with a massive dilution of student brain-power and the
> > > > > > connection of student success with the numbers we pass. This
> > > > > > situation makes moral judgement very difficult and academe has
> > > > > > collapsed altogether as a moral place.
>
> > > > > > Economics has long been taught as a science - an utter farce - and
> > > > > > management theories are only fit for ridicule (excellence, kwality and
> > > > > > anything with 'strategic' in it). The world works around power and
> > > > > > rhetoric, and this is the only real content of such "theories".
>
> > > > > > The madness that underlies all this is that we never address what the
> > > > > > real issues might be. Accumulated wealth is clearly a problem for
> > > > > > democracy as it inevitably means some will benefit by doing nothing
> > > > > > while others work and that the wealth will be used to influence
> > > > > > politics and the very ground of commercial competition. Yet with no
> > > > > > consideration of this we leap into "theorising" in a system that
> > > > > > applauds the creation of excess wealth in few hands as a 'good'.
>
> > > > > > One can try to teach what one believes is true and in simple morality
> > > > > > this is what one ought to do. The actual situation is much more
> > > > > > complex. The jobs available in teaching (apart from a few little
> > > > > > eddies I have occupied) are nearly all to do with teaching the rot,
> > > > > > because this is the cheapest way universities can devise. The moral
> > > > > > choice of not teaching rot changes to a choice not to teach (and get
> > > > > > paid) - partly because your own students will be examined on the rot
> > > > > > because you are teaching as part of a 'team' and all students are set
> > > > > > the same questions as part of standardisation. If you don't teach the
> > > > > > muck you put your students at a disadvantage.
>
> > > > > > I see no answers to the moral conundrum - other than just to walk
> > > > > > away, putting distance between oneself and the madness.
>
> > > > > --
> > > > > (
> > > > > )
> > > > > |_D Allan
>
> > > > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -

Re: Mind's Eye Facebook IPO rip-off?

2012-02-02T07:39:00.000-08:00

Even in poverty their are hidden blessings.

At this point in time I am out of business ideas except maybe one but it is stupid and dumb at the same time, oddly though there is the possibility of working, but the marketing would have to be damn good.
Allan

On Feb 2, 2012 3:02 PM, "archytas" <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:

I am thinking about starting a small business (partly to employ
grandson) Allan. Even Amazon has made no real money and I can't see
FB doing anything after all the hype. The smart money is only
interested in the financing fees (7% of whatever raised) or in buying
before an initial spike and getting rid. What I want to see is the
technology in use to actually collapse what rigsy is rightly on about
in its current form. I'd like to see a more producer direct to
consumer society aimed at giving us all more leisure time and
servicing that leisure communally.

On Feb 2, 12:21 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> FB is a seedbed for advertisers/marketing- another way of tracking
> potential customers.//Well, I had to laugh about "free lance"- thanks!
>
> On Feb 1, 7:58 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > 'Free lance' once meant exactly that - a term from the 100 Years War
> > (which was mostly about British mercenaries screwing Europe). I have
> > a Facebook account but find the 'place' boring - I don't do that kind
> > of stuff for real and have no interest in the virtual form. Don't
> > quite see you on a charger spearing peasants rigs! I'm quite sure the
> > Internet generally is mostly a waste of space and has a potential we
> > are barely grasping at all. Facebook looks like leading 'dotcon 2'.
>
> > On Feb 1, 11:36 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Most women I know consider the founder creepy and haven't signed on-
> > > one, an artist, advised to get "out there" to boost sales and name
> > > recognition. Someone has been trying to get me on a business social
> > > group but I haven't taken it up since they decided I was a "free
> > > lance"- whatever that is!
>
> > > On Feb 1, 12:46 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > the only reason I use face book now is because my daughter is ther and it
> > > > is how I keep track of what is happening in her life..
> > > > I like the new EU laws that require these massive companies to turn over
> > > > all information they have on you on request.. and also have to delete all
> > > > information also on request.. will glad when they take effect..
> > > > The companies don't like the fines involved if they don't comply.
> > > > Allan
>
> > > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 12:50 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > The selling point of Facebook is supposedly the "lock-in" it has one
> > > > > you as a customer because your friends are there. I can't really be
> > > > > bothered with it because so many people I don't want to know are
> > > > > there! And all the spam and dire else that comes with the Internet.
> > > > > I do shop online, but that's largely because I don't like shops and
> > > > > shopping - plus some stuff is much cheaper than my 'local' chain-
> > > > > store.
>
> > > > > What I'd like to be able to do is buy in advance direct from
> > > > > manufacturers in an environment of peer review on quality and
> > > > > service. One can easily imagine a kind of auction service for such in
> > > > > which I put up what I want and manufacturers and service suppliers
> > > > > could bid to fulfill my needs and that of my agreed collective. I'd
> > > > > want fellow members to be able to control and advertising and for a
> > > > > collective representation if things go wrong.
>
> > > > > The technology to run Facebook is hardly a barrier to entry. My idea
> > > > > would be to undercut retailing through a new logistic model that would
> > > > > not involve the collective auction becoming a retailer or holding
> > > > > stock. One example is Green Metropolis which just takes a fee on
> > > > > books held by members and sold through its site.
>
> > > > > I think a lot of fingers will get burned over Facebook. I wonder if
> > > > > there is an alternative that would not be concerned with retailing and
> > > > > all its gimmicks? I've never responded to a Google ad so far and
> > > > > suspect there must be a better way to source essentials.
>
> > > > --
> > > > (
> > > > )
> > > > |_D Allan
>
> > > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -

Re: Mind's Eye Re: Truth & I

2012-02-02T06:07:00.001-08:00

You are right some of the students 'know' James - especially the
mature ones.

On Feb 2, 6:55 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> R U OK James?
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 2:07 AM, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Oops, wrong thread! Ringing head, dizziness, and nausea are starting
> > to bug me, distracting too. Enough already. Be well everyone. :)
>
> > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 7:04 PM, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > If you don't think your students pick up on a slight hesitation or
> > > unconscious facial signal that a theory is bunk I think you are
> > > selling yourself short Neil. We are in a rapidly changing world, but
> > > some things haven't, conscience for example, you have the haves and
> > > have-nots. I think there is compelling evidence that we could live
> > > more fulfilling lives in the service to mankind, but when faced with
> > > the decision to sink or float/soar many are doing what they think is
> > > necessary even if it is rotting at the core of civilisation. We will
> > > craft our beliefs of right and wrong to fit the world we know, mostly
> > > I think. Identity and seeing oneself in the mirror helps but requires
> > > more than a single image as we need comparisons, it would help to say
> > > hey something else would work and people are doing it. A new labor
> > > class perhaps, philosophically motivated?
>
> > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 6:40 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> I think we are always stuck in an irrational situation, generally the
> > >> makings of others. Science makes some kind of clearing for
> > >> rationality and inventiveness. Heidegger opined on clearings as being
> > >> amongst the real things of the world rather than facing them in
> > >> thought 'where the backs were missing, but that didn't help him see
> > >> the Nazis for what they were. One can probably "curl up" by taking
> > >> action - as a cop in a pub brawl or whatever our countries ask of us
> > >> as soldiers, our societies of mothers and so on. I've found myself
> > >> coping in action fully aware of its ludicrous nature and wondering if
> > >> there is any freedom from it other than that given by adrenaline and
> > >> the steel put in in training to do the noxious.
> > >> There's a strange rationale that we somehow have to do what's right in
> > >> what is already an irrational mess and act as though rational against
> > >> some bigger picture that we are the good guys - a view unseated
> > >> everywhere by realistic history. The question for me is whether we
> > >> can do much with our knowledge in a world in which few will give up on
> > >> the comfort of knowing very little.
>
> > >> On Feb 1, 11:50 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >>> Also- I think if we really knew the consequences of our acts and
> > >>> choices we might just curl up into a ball and do nothing. One friend
> > >>> and I chuckle that we're all pretty much on an assembly line...
>
> > >>> On Feb 1, 5:27 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > >>> > Just to clarify my thought- that luck and timing can be good, bad or
> > >>> > indifferent. Also rather than active thinking being a debate, it is
> > >>> > more like selection. Literature and social sciences deal with layered
> > >>> > communication- for instance, withholding facts, feelings or motives.
> > >>> > It is often called discretion. :-) How do you mean "identity"?
>
> > >>> > On Jan 31, 11:09 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >>> > > The 'making sense of things later' seems true even in the split
> > second
> > >>> > > in brain research. I regard all strategy as retrospectively
> > devised!
> > >>> > > There's a book just out by Hill and Myatt (economists) on just how
> > >>> > > facile economics teaching is in universities - but this contains
> > >>> > > nothing on how this has happened. Some of this seems to me
> > connected
> > >>> > > with a lack of movement beyond identity Molly.
>
> > >>> > > On Jan 31, 1:30 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >>> > > > Part of human nature is to identify with people, thoughts, ideas
> > >>> > > > around us. Being able to witness your identification, and moving
> > >>> > > > beyond it is the real treasure.
>
> > >>> > > > On Jan 29, 9:10 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >>> > > > > Molly your question has my mind running around its dust bins.
> > Most my
> > >>> > > > > thoughts are not original but more composites of other ideas.
> > They are like
> > >>> > > > > hand me downs,, like the 3D image comes from watching how
> > people search
> > >>> > > > > for treasure on sunken vessels, it is rags from a different
> > ?idea?.
>
> > >>> > > > > My world is a world of rags in the form of other ideas.
> > >>> > > > > Allan
> > >>> > > > > On Jan 29, 2012 8:21 PM, "Allan H" <allanh1...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > >>> > > > > > Yeah it is kind of like an old dog sappen on his favorite
> > bone.
>
> > >>> > > > > > it is trying to understand others, and what I have
> > experienced As I have
> > >>> > > > > > very few friends that like discussing God I talk to myself
> > a lot..which is
> > >>> > > > > > no problem as I am never really alone,.
> > >>> > > > > > Allan
>
> > >>> > > > > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > >>> > > > > >> Not at all irrelevant. did you have more thoughts about
> > this?
>
> > >>> > > > > >> On Jan 28, 10:19 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>> > > > > >> > Hi Mol&Rigs, listening to you two I've been asking myself
> > why none of
> > >>> > > > > >> > you mentions Jung and his description of the collective
> > unconscious. I
> > >>> > > > > >> > haven't read the Red Book yet, but maybe of of you has
> > and could tell
> > >>> > > > > >> > me why this is irrelevant to what you are discussing.
>
> > >>> > > > > >> > On Jan 27, 2:35 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >>> > > > > >> > > The paramount paradox.
>
> > >>> > > > > >> > > On Jan 27, 8:21 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > Yes- I've read a lot of Campbell and admire his
> > efforts. In fact, I
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > was going to put the Oriental Mythology of his Masks
> > of God series
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > aside to reread- Indian, Chinese and Japanese
> > chapters. I wish I
> > >>> > > > > >> could
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > keep certain studies on top of my thinking but maybe
> > I have read so
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > much there is a chute to forgetfulness or a pit of
> > scrambled
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > ideas! :-) Oh, dear!
>
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > However, back to your comment about looking
> > back/within. I consider
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > there is impossible split between the spiritual and
> > material and yet
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > that is our struggle to bridge- if possible.
>
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > On Jan 27, 6:32 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > Do myths disappear? Joseph Campbell mapped common
> > human myth
> > >>> > > > > >> around
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > the word and through time to discover a mechanism
> > something close
> > >>> > > > > >> to
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > common memory - the expression of the same
> > archetypes in real
> > >>> > > > > >> time,
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > isolated incidents around the globe and at the same
> > time. This
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > phenomena has occurred throughout human history.
> > This may tell us
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > that it is not the looking back that is important,
> > but as Vam
> > >>> > > > > >> says,
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > looking within.
>
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > On Jan 26, 5:54 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > What is original? I might argue that one is
> > simply explicating
> > >>> > > > > >> what
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > already exists.
>
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > Each generation assumes it has a distinct
> > character- or needs
> > >>> > > > > >> to prove
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > that it has.
>
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > Was thinking the reason myths disappear is
> > because they were
> > >>> > > > > >> oral and
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > native languages are usually suppressed by the
> > conquerors. One
> > >>> > > > > >> also
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > carries family myths- which interfere with deep
> > communication.
>
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > Yes- there are terrible inequities- all the more
> > scandalous
> > >>> > > > > >> because
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > there really is plenty to go around so the root
> > is greed and
> > >>> > > > > >> distain
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > for others. Governments only pretend to care for
> > all its
> > >>> > > > > >> citizens- it
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > picks and chooses.
>
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > We passed the Gilded Age- I would call this the
> > Tinsel Age.
>
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > On Jan 25, 9:45 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > I would say, Vam, that you often jump in the
> > water with an
> > >>> > > > > >> 'entourage'
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > of assumptive baggage. I probably dislike
> > citation more than
> > >>> > > > > >> you and
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > am not the first. Veblen would be a good start
> > (to use some
> > >>> > > > > >> rough
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > citation). These days, you can at least Google
> > the name.
> > >>> > > > > >> When I
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > started it meant a trip to the library. Anyone
> > who has the
> > >>> > > > > >> chance to
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > read a lot of what's available (this is still
> > remarkably few)
> > >>> > > > > >> should
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > discover most of what they thought their own
> > ideas have been
> > >>> > > > > >> done
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > before. The idea is no doubt to try to 'stand
> > on the
> > >>> > > > > >> shoulders of
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > giants' (itself a wisecrack by Newton on
> > Hooke's dwarfish
> > >>> > > > > >> stature).
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > The 'giants' always turn out flawed. Moses is
> > a war criminal
> > >>> > > > > >> in
> > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > Numbers 31, the Greeks, for all their argument,
> > never
>
> ...
>
> read more »

Re: Mind's Eye Facebook IPO rip-off?

2012-02-02T06:02:00.001-08:00

I am thinking about starting a small business (partly to employ
grandson) Allan. Even Amazon has made no real money and I can't see
FB doing anything after all the hype. The smart money is only
interested in the financing fees (7% of whatever raised) or in buying
before an initial spike and getting rid. What I want to see is the
technology in use to actually collapse what rigsy is rightly on about
in its current form. I'd like to see a more producer direct to
consumer society aimed at giving us all more leisure time and
servicing that leisure communally.

On Feb 2, 12:21 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> FB is a seedbed for advertisers/marketing- another way of tracking
> potential customers.//Well, I had to laugh about "free lance"- thanks!
>
> On Feb 1, 7:58 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > 'Free lance' once meant exactly that - a term from the 100 Years War
> > (which was mostly about British mercenaries screwing Europe). I have
> > a Facebook account but find the 'place' boring - I don't do that kind
> > of stuff for real and have no interest in the virtual form. Don't
> > quite see you on a charger spearing peasants rigs! I'm quite sure the
> > Internet generally is mostly a waste of space and has a potential we
> > are barely grasping at all. Facebook looks like leading 'dotcon 2'.
>
> > On Feb 1, 11:36 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Most women I know consider the founder creepy and haven't signed on-
> > > one, an artist, advised to get "out there" to boost sales and name
> > > recognition. Someone has been trying to get me on a business social
> > > group but I haven't taken it up since they decided I was a "free
> > > lance"- whatever that is!
>
> > > On Feb 1, 12:46 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > the only reason I use face book now is because my daughter is ther and it
> > > > is how I keep track of what is happening in her life..
> > > > I like the new EU laws that require these massive companies to turn over
> > > > all information they have on you on request.. and also have to delete all
> > > > information also on request.. will glad when they take effect..
> > > > The companies don't like the fines involved if they don't comply.
> > > > Allan
>
> > > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 12:50 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > The selling point of Facebook is supposedly the "lock-in" it has one
> > > > > you as a customer because your friends are there. I can't really be
> > > > > bothered with it because so many people I don't want to know are
> > > > > there! And all the spam and dire else that comes with the Internet.
> > > > > I do shop online, but that's largely because I don't like shops and
> > > > > shopping - plus some stuff is much cheaper than my 'local' chain-
> > > > > store.
>
> > > > > What I'd like to be able to do is buy in advance direct from
> > > > > manufacturers in an environment of peer review on quality and
> > > > > service. One can easily imagine a kind of auction service for such in
> > > > > which I put up what I want and manufacturers and service suppliers
> > > > > could bid to fulfill my needs and that of my agreed collective. I'd
> > > > > want fellow members to be able to control and advertising and for a
> > > > > collective representation if things go wrong.
>
> > > > > The technology to run Facebook is hardly a barrier to entry. My idea
> > > > > would be to undercut retailing through a new logistic model that would
> > > > > not involve the collective auction becoming a retailer or holding
> > > > > stock. One example is Green Metropolis which just takes a fee on
> > > > > books held by members and sold through its site.
>
> > > > > I think a lot of fingers will get burned over Facebook. I wonder if
> > > > > there is an alternative that would not be concerned with retailing and
> > > > > all its gimmicks? I've never responded to a Google ad so far and
> > > > > suspect there must be a better way to source essentials.
>
> > > > --
> > > > (
> > > > )
> > > > |_D Allan
>
> > > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -

Mind's Eye Re: Having a larf? Is humour cruel?

2012-02-02T05:49:00.001-08:00

"Four Lions" is a brilliant piece mocking Islamic terrorism from all
sides. I rather like teasing humour and farce. I might almost be
your mocking friend - I'm insecure enough at times! Umbero Eco (Name
of the Rose) had the very existence of an Aristotle text on humour as
a threat to the Church. Our current religion is in need to mockery.
A system that encourages a vastly wealthy class hardly sounds like a
starting point for reasonable equality of opportunity! Etc.

On Feb 2, 12:11 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Satire is meant to bite- so it's not truly comedy, i.e. scorn versus
> merriement. Yes- I heard ethnic, racial, sexist jokes growing up but
> they were not mean-spirited then political correctness pounced though
> now the style in political and social humor is mockery>distain/
> contempt. I do like slapstick- another great was Sid Ceasar- also Mel
> Brooks maybe Jewish humor derives from their tragic history, in part.
> As for Kierkegaard, I might have smiled if I could wade through his
> style- maybe I was not fair with K. One friend still reminds me of
> doing the right thing and is grateful that when a mutual "friend"
> thought the behavior of the "ex" in a messy divorce was hysterically
> funny I said this is her life and it is not funny at all- there is a
> lot of cruelty found in the "nicest" places sometimes. Another ex-
> friend is a great mocker- takes on accents and puts on a little show
> to illustrate her superiority over others and I don't doubt I am
> another on her list. But these type are just cruel and insecure.
>
> On Feb 1, 8:42 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > My child hood was littered with jokes. How do you keep an Irishman
> > busy all day - put him in a barrel and tell him to micturate in the
> > corner. The Germans bombed our chip shop and had no sense of humour.
> > In France, the Belgians are the butt or "Irish" jokes; elsewhere the
> > Poles. Jokes often rely on 'taking the Micky' - ridiculing someone
> > else. In Englishmen, Scotsmen and Irishmen jokes it was common for
> > the English and Scots to be the suckers to a sharp and cunning
> > Irishman. Even the holocaust has been subject to joking - often by
> > the victims.
>
> > I have taught Kierkegaard as an example of dark, lengthy Danish humour
> > (and can point to books on same). There is an affinity in his work
> > with the Monty Python poverty joke in which each in turn recalls a
> > childhoods in greater poverty than the last. Eventually, just as one
> > thinks the guy claiming to have lived in a shoebox on the central
> > reservation of the M6 has 'won' the game another bloke says,
> > "Shoebox? You had a shoebox. Luxury!" Kierkegaard does this with
> > Christianity.
>
> > My own humour is dark, but it's rare I mean anyone harm. I used to
> > think that satire offered some hope of change, but in recent years
> > have come to see it as merely part of the problems we have. It is of
> > the Establishment and feigns resistance.
>
> > I think humour might be part of a way out of chronic illusion; but it
> > is often merely cruel and parochial.

Re: Mind's Eye What really lies in simple moral positions?

2012-02-02T05:39:00.001-08:00

Much to agree with on what we might call fudge and mudge. Things
certainly seem to have become much worse as the business model and its
people have moved in. What I want to know more about is what
facilitates the corruption and, of course, what might bring it to an
end. This should be a key issue in organisational design, but anti-
corruption becomes a self-serving bureaucracy in-itself, often
preventing the actual desired purpose.

One of the naive issues ejucation is replete with is teaching the
right way to do things without reference to what goes on in actual
work situations and power-relations. Many of us respond with some
distress to standard philosophical considerations where the argument
made is only possible because of what is excluded. In business
ejucation this is referred to as the learning transfer problem - these
days no one dares to say the 'learning material' itself is a load of
tosh (shades of the worst of religion). My mature students, always a
source of inspiration, have often said they enjoy being able to debate
critical concerns and that they hope I don't expect them to take this
into the workplace where this would be an effective job-suicide note.

Whistle-blowers are now being paid off through compromise agreements
even in bodies responsible for supervising complaints and standards.
"Harmony" is a hair spray rigsy! Not a bad metaphor for what gets
sprayed over the problems. My feeling is the rotten orchard needs
something stronger. The situation is 'Emperor's New Clothes', but I'm
afraid the child's voice ending and everything fine after that can't
work.

I'm not concerned much on a personal basis, largely on what Molly
says. I suspect the stuff of this corruption prevents almost all
practical argument and is what science excludes from its
considerations.

On Feb 2, 12:32 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Yes- it is about harmony- understanding it and finding it.
>
> On Feb 2, 5:44 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I can see that my sense of morality has changed over the years along
> > with my relationship to life. Yet at the core of it, is a sense of
> > self respect that allowed me to walk away from a couple of decent
> > incomes and destructive human relationships because of the culture of
> > war they brought with them. Somehow, expressing truth in the moment
> > was never enough, the war raged on. In retrospect, I can see that
> > what I was walking to when walking away was far better, but at the
> > time, the path was forming as my foot hit the exit doorway in the
> > walking away. I've never been comfortable in that scenario, but I can
> > now see it has payed off for me in the long run. It always starts
> > with listening to my gut.
>
> > An interesting time we live in, with our education, political and
> > financial systems no longer serving us. With eyes blurred from Rome
> > burning, it is hard to see what is coming for us. What I do know is
> > we are a resilient lot, and something will. The education system does
> > suck, my youngest is still in University and has always struggled with
> > the system. He will get his BA in May with honors, something he never
> > experienced in the younger grades. Somehow, he made it work out of a
> > desire for a good life.
>
> > Myself, I found a way to make it work while still doing my own thing
> > in the University, but after being told by the English Dept to find a
> > different course of study. I was lucky that there was a more creative
> > "alternative" available or I would probably have quit. I did see
> > (what seemed to me) the brightest teachers struggling with the
> > bureaucracy of their profession. But it seems to me we all struggle
> > with that, even my husband, the Chiropractor, who is in practice by
> > himself. If we live in community, we adapt to the rules, regs, norms,
> > laws, while expressing ourselves the best we can. Seems to me that
> > finding a lasting harmony there is the real trick, no matter the
> > details of it.
>
> > On Feb 1, 3:54 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I had a sense of doing what seemed right as a cop Allan - even though
> > > most situations were difficult to see a right side in. The academy
> > > stinks as in the State of Denmark and I get to feel the only thing is
> > > to retreat to the margins. My working guess is that it's
> > > "meritocracy" that sucks.
>
> > > On Feb 1, 8:30 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > not being obnoxious, The that comes to my mind is just what is your
> > > > understanding of morality and how it is applied in ones life.
> > > > Understanding morality on a personal level can be quite difficult,
> > > > especially if you want it to make sense.
> > > > Allan
>
> > > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 7:39 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > I hope to spend the next 5 years "not teaching" - a difficult
> > > > > financial decision as this is my 'ready-to-hand' income. Some years
> > > > > back I tried to take and stick to a decision not to teach 'ideological
> > > > > rot' - broadly the mainstream of business and economic subjects. This
> > > > > might seem a fairly easy personal, moral decision; yet it isn't.
>
> > > > > The interesting issues don't concern the easy morality of doing what's
> > > > > right. One can find plenty of material, from Critical Theory through
> > > > > to deconstructive approaches to behaviour and critical psychology -
> > > > > and once, very critical management books like Peter Anthony's
> > > > > 'Foundation of Management' and sort programmes out on the basis of
> > > > > these. Thus one could teach material one might feel credible and
> > > > > stretching, broadly aimed at students learning critical reasoning. I
> > > > > do offer modules based around writers like David Graeber, Steve Keen
> > > > > and modern blogs at the moment.
>
> > > > > What muddies the waters is a combination of streamlining costs in HE
> > > > > and more or less the extirpation of syllabus control by academics,
> > > > > along with a massive dilution of student brain-power and the
> > > > > connection of student success with the numbers we pass. This
> > > > > situation makes moral judgement very difficult and academe has
> > > > > collapsed altogether as a moral place.
>
> > > > > Economics has long been taught as a science - an utter farce - and
> > > > > management theories are only fit for ridicule (excellence, kwality and
> > > > > anything with 'strategic' in it). The world works around power and
> > > > > rhetoric, and this is the only real content of such "theories".
>
> > > > > The madness that underlies all this is that we never address what the
> > > > > real issues might be. Accumulated wealth is clearly a problem for
> > > > > democracy as it inevitably means some will benefit by doing nothing
> > > > > while others work and that the wealth will be used to influence
> > > > > politics and the very ground of commercial competition. Yet with no
> > > > > consideration of this we leap into "theorising" in a system that
> > > > > applauds the creation of excess wealth in few hands as a 'good'.
>
> > > > > One can try to teach what one believes is true and in simple morality
> > > > > this is what one ought to do. The actual situation is much more
> > > > > complex. The jobs available in teaching (apart from a few little
> > > > > eddies I have occupied) are nearly all to do with teaching the rot,
> > > > > because this is the cheapest way universities can devise. The moral
> > > > > choice of not teaching rot changes to a choice not to teach (and get
> > > > > paid) - partly because your own students will be examined on the rot
> > > > > because you are teaching as part of a 'team' and all students are set
> > > > > the same questions as part of standardisation. If you don't teach the
> > > > > muck you put your students at a disadvantage.
>
> > > > > I see no answers to the moral conundrum - other than just to walk
> > > > > away, putting distance between oneself and the madness.
>
> > > > --
> > > > (
> > > > )
> > > > |_D Allan
>
> > > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -

Re: Mind's Eye What really lies in simple moral positions?

2012-02-02T04:32:00.001-08:00

Yes- it is about harmony- understanding it and finding it.

On Feb 2, 5:44 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I can see that my sense of morality has changed over the years along
> with my relationship to life. Yet at the core of it, is a sense of
> self respect that allowed me to walk away from a couple of decent
> incomes and destructive human relationships because of the culture of
> war they brought with them. Somehow, expressing truth in the moment
> was never enough, the war raged on. In retrospect, I can see that
> what I was walking to when walking away was far better, but at the
> time, the path was forming as my foot hit the exit doorway in the
> walking away. I've never been comfortable in that scenario, but I can
> now see it has payed off for me in the long run. It always starts
> with listening to my gut.
>
> An interesting time we live in, with our education, political and
> financial systems no longer serving us. With eyes blurred from Rome
> burning, it is hard to see what is coming for us. What I do know is
> we are a resilient lot, and something will. The education system does
> suck, my youngest is still in University and has always struggled with
> the system. He will get his BA in May with honors, something he never
> experienced in the younger grades. Somehow, he made it work out of a
> desire for a good life.
>
> Myself, I found a way to make it work while still doing my own thing
> in the University, but after being told by the English Dept to find a
> different course of study. I was lucky that there was a more creative
> "alternative" available or I would probably have quit. I did see
> (what seemed to me) the brightest teachers struggling with the
> bureaucracy of their profession. But it seems to me we all struggle
> with that, even my husband, the Chiropractor, who is in practice by
> himself. If we live in community, we adapt to the rules, regs, norms,
> laws, while expressing ourselves the best we can. Seems to me that
> finding a lasting harmony there is the real trick, no matter the
> details of it.
>
> On Feb 1, 3:54 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I had a sense of doing what seemed right as a cop Allan - even though
> > most situations were difficult to see a right side in. The academy
> > stinks as in the State of Denmark and I get to feel the only thing is
> > to retreat to the margins. My working guess is that it's
> > "meritocracy" that sucks.
>
> > On Feb 1, 8:30 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > not being obnoxious, The that comes to my mind is just what is your
> > > understanding of morality and how it is applied in ones life.
> > > Understanding morality on a personal level can be quite difficult,
> > > especially if you want it to make sense.
> > > Allan
>
> > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 7:39 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I hope to spend the next 5 years "not teaching" - a difficult
> > > > financial decision as this is my 'ready-to-hand' income. Some years
> > > > back I tried to take and stick to a decision not to teach 'ideological
> > > > rot' - broadly the mainstream of business and economic subjects. This
> > > > might seem a fairly easy personal, moral decision; yet it isn't.
>
> > > > The interesting issues don't concern the easy morality of doing what's
> > > > right. One can find plenty of material, from Critical Theory through
> > > > to deconstructive approaches to behaviour and critical psychology -
> > > > and once, very critical management books like Peter Anthony's
> > > > 'Foundation of Management' and sort programmes out on the basis of
> > > > these. Thus one could teach material one might feel credible and
> > > > stretching, broadly aimed at students learning critical reasoning. I
> > > > do offer modules based around writers like David Graeber, Steve Keen
> > > > and modern blogs at the moment.
>
> > > > What muddies the waters is a combination of streamlining costs in HE
> > > > and more or less the extirpation of syllabus control by academics,
> > > > along with a massive dilution of student brain-power and the
> > > > connection of student success with the numbers we pass. This
> > > > situation makes moral judgement very difficult and academe has
> > > > collapsed altogether as a moral place.
>
> > > > Economics has long been taught as a science - an utter farce - and
> > > > management theories are only fit for ridicule (excellence, kwality and
> > > > anything with 'strategic' in it). The world works around power and
> > > > rhetoric, and this is the only real content of such "theories".
>
> > > > The madness that underlies all this is that we never address what the
> > > > real issues might be. Accumulated wealth is clearly a problem for
> > > > democracy as it inevitably means some will benefit by doing nothing
> > > > while others work and that the wealth will be used to influence
> > > > politics and the very ground of commercial competition. Yet with no
> > > > consideration of this we leap into "theorising" in a system that
> > > > applauds the creation of excess wealth in few hands as a 'good'.
>
> > > > One can try to teach what one believes is true and in simple morality
> > > > this is what one ought to do. The actual situation is much more
> > > > complex. The jobs available in teaching (apart from a few little
> > > > eddies I have occupied) are nearly all to do with teaching the rot,
> > > > because this is the cheapest way universities can devise. The moral
> > > > choice of not teaching rot changes to a choice not to teach (and get
> > > > paid) - partly because your own students will be examined on the rot
> > > > because you are teaching as part of a 'team' and all students are set
> > > > the same questions as part of standardisation. If you don't teach the
> > > > muck you put your students at a disadvantage.
>
> > > > I see no answers to the moral conundrum - other than just to walk
> > > > away, putting distance between oneself and the madness.
>
> > > --
> > > (
> > > )
> > > |_D Allan
>
> > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Re: Mind's Eye Facebook IPO rip-off?

2012-02-02T04:21:00.001-08:00

FB is a seedbed for advertisers/marketing- another way of tracking
potential customers.//Well, I had to laugh about "free lance"- thanks!

On Feb 1, 7:58 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 'Free lance' once meant exactly that - a term from the 100 Years War
> (which was mostly about British mercenaries screwing Europe). I have
> a Facebook account but find the 'place' boring - I don't do that kind
> of stuff for real and have no interest in the virtual form. Don't
> quite see you on a charger spearing peasants rigs! I'm quite sure the
> Internet generally is mostly a waste of space and has a potential we
> are barely grasping at all. Facebook looks like leading 'dotcon 2'.
>
> On Feb 1, 11:36 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Most women I know consider the founder creepy and haven't signed on-
> > one, an artist, advised to get "out there" to boost sales and name
> > recognition. Someone has been trying to get me on a business social
> > group but I haven't taken it up since they decided I was a "free
> > lance"- whatever that is!
>
> > On Feb 1, 12:46 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > the only reason I use face book now is because my daughter is ther and it
> > > is how I keep track of what is happening in her life..
> > > I like the new EU laws that require these massive companies to turn over
> > > all information they have on you on request.. and also have to delete all
> > > information also on request.. will glad when they take effect..
> > > The companies don't like the fines involved if they don't comply.
> > > Allan
>
> > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 12:50 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > The selling point of Facebook is supposedly the "lock-in" it has one
> > > > you as a customer because your friends are there. I can't really be
> > > > bothered with it because so many people I don't want to know are
> > > > there! And all the spam and dire else that comes with the Internet.
> > > > I do shop online, but that's largely because I don't like shops and
> > > > shopping - plus some stuff is much cheaper than my 'local' chain-
> > > > store.
>
> > > > What I'd like to be able to do is buy in advance direct from
> > > > manufacturers in an environment of peer review on quality and
> > > > service. One can easily imagine a kind of auction service for such in
> > > > which I put up what I want and manufacturers and service suppliers
> > > > could bid to fulfill my needs and that of my agreed collective. I'd
> > > > want fellow members to be able to control and advertising and for a
> > > > collective representation if things go wrong.
>
> > > > The technology to run Facebook is hardly a barrier to entry. My idea
> > > > would be to undercut retailing through a new logistic model that would
> > > > not involve the collective auction becoming a retailer or holding
> > > > stock. One example is Green Metropolis which just takes a fee on
> > > > books held by members and sold through its site.
>
> > > > I think a lot of fingers will get burned over Facebook. I wonder if
> > > > there is an alternative that would not be concerned with retailing and
> > > > all its gimmicks? I've never responded to a Google ad so far and
> > > > suspect there must be a better way to source essentials.
>
> > > --
> > > (
> > > )
> > > |_D Allan
>
> > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Mind's Eye Re: Having a larf? Is humour cruel?

2012-02-02T04:11:00.001-08:00

Satire is meant to bite- so it's not truly comedy, i.e. scorn versus
merriement. Yes- I heard ethnic, racial, sexist jokes growing up but
they were not mean-spirited then political correctness pounced though
now the style in political and social humor is mockery>distain/
contempt. I do like slapstick- another great was Sid Ceasar- also Mel
Brooks maybe Jewish humor derives from their tragic history, in part.
As for Kierkegaard, I might have smiled if I could wade through his
style- maybe I was not fair with K. One friend still reminds me of
doing the right thing and is grateful that when a mutual "friend"
thought the behavior of the "ex" in a messy divorce was hysterically
funny I said this is her life and it is not funny at all- there is a
lot of cruelty found in the "nicest" places sometimes. Another ex-
friend is a great mocker- takes on accents and puts on a little show
to illustrate her superiority over others and I don't doubt I am
another on her list. But these type are just cruel and insecure.

On Feb 1, 8:42 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My child hood was littered with jokes. How do you keep an Irishman
> busy all day - put him in a barrel and tell him to micturate in the
> corner. The Germans bombed our chip shop and had no sense of humour.
> In France, the Belgians are the butt or "Irish" jokes; elsewhere the
> Poles. Jokes often rely on 'taking the Micky' - ridiculing someone
> else. In Englishmen, Scotsmen and Irishmen jokes it was common for
> the English and Scots to be the suckers to a sharp and cunning
> Irishman. Even the holocaust has been subject to joking - often by
> the victims.
>
> I have taught Kierkegaard as an example of dark, lengthy Danish humour
> (and can point to books on same). There is an affinity in his work
> with the Monty Python poverty joke in which each in turn recalls a
> childhoods in greater poverty than the last. Eventually, just as one
> thinks the guy claiming to have lived in a shoebox on the central
> reservation of the M6 has 'won' the game another bloke says,
> "Shoebox? You had a shoebox. Luxury!" Kierkegaard does this with
> Christianity.
>
> My own humour is dark, but it's rare I mean anyone harm. I used to
> think that satire offered some hope of change, but in recent years
> have come to see it as merely part of the problems we have. It is of
> the Establishment and feigns resistance.
>
> I think humour might be part of a way out of chronic illusion; but it
> is often merely cruel and parochial.

Re: Mind's Eye What really lies in simple moral positions?

2012-02-02T03:44:00.001-08:00

I can see that my sense of morality has changed over the years along
with my relationship to life. Yet at the core of it, is a sense of
self respect that allowed me to walk away from a couple of decent
incomes and destructive human relationships because of the culture of
war they brought with them. Somehow, expressing truth in the moment
was never enough, the war raged on. In retrospect, I can see that
what I was walking to when walking away was far better, but at the
time, the path was forming as my foot hit the exit doorway in the
walking away. I've never been comfortable in that scenario, but I can
now see it has payed off for me in the long run. It always starts
with listening to my gut.

An interesting time we live in, with our education, political and
financial systems no longer serving us. With eyes blurred from Rome
burning, it is hard to see what is coming for us. What I do know is
we are a resilient lot, and something will. The education system does
suck, my youngest is still in University and has always struggled with
the system. He will get his BA in May with honors, something he never
experienced in the younger grades. Somehow, he made it work out of a
desire for a good life.

Myself, I found a way to make it work while still doing my own thing
in the University, but after being told by the English Dept to find a
different course of study. I was lucky that there was a more creative
"alternative" available or I would probably have quit. I did see
(what seemed to me) the brightest teachers struggling with the
bureaucracy of their profession. But it seems to me we all struggle
with that, even my husband, the Chiropractor, who is in practice by
himself. If we live in community, we adapt to the rules, regs, norms,
laws, while expressing ourselves the best we can. Seems to me that
finding a lasting harmony there is the real trick, no matter the
details of it.

On Feb 1, 3:54 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I had a sense of doing what seemed right as a cop Allan - even though
> most situations were difficult to see a right side in. The academy
> stinks as in the State of Denmark and I get to feel the only thing is
> to retreat to the margins. My working guess is that it's
> "meritocracy" that sucks.
>
> On Feb 1, 8:30 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > not being obnoxious, The that comes to my mind is just what is your
> > understanding of morality and how it is applied in ones life.
> > Understanding morality on a personal level can be quite difficult,
> > especially if you want it to make sense.
> > Allan
>
> > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 7:39 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I hope to spend the next 5 years "not teaching" - a difficult
> > > financial decision as this is my 'ready-to-hand' income. Some years
> > > back I tried to take and stick to a decision not to teach 'ideological
> > > rot' - broadly the mainstream of business and economic subjects. This
> > > might seem a fairly easy personal, moral decision; yet it isn't.
>
> > > The interesting issues don't concern the easy morality of doing what's
> > > right. One can find plenty of material, from Critical Theory through
> > > to deconstructive approaches to behaviour and critical psychology -
> > > and once, very critical management books like Peter Anthony's
> > > 'Foundation of Management' and sort programmes out on the basis of
> > > these. Thus one could teach material one might feel credible and
> > > stretching, broadly aimed at students learning critical reasoning. I
> > > do offer modules based around writers like David Graeber, Steve Keen
> > > and modern blogs at the moment.
>
> > > What muddies the waters is a combination of streamlining costs in HE
> > > and more or less the extirpation of syllabus control by academics,
> > > along with a massive dilution of student brain-power and the
> > > connection of student success with the numbers we pass. This
> > > situation makes moral judgement very difficult and academe has
> > > collapsed altogether as a moral place.
>
> > > Economics has long been taught as a science - an utter farce - and
> > > management theories are only fit for ridicule (excellence, kwality and
> > > anything with 'strategic' in it). The world works around power and
> > > rhetoric, and this is the only real content of such "theories".
>
> > > The madness that underlies all this is that we never address what the
> > > real issues might be. Accumulated wealth is clearly a problem for
> > > democracy as it inevitably means some will benefit by doing nothing
> > > while others work and that the wealth will be used to influence
> > > politics and the very ground of commercial competition. Yet with no
> > > consideration of this we leap into "theorising" in a system that
> > > applauds the creation of excess wealth in few hands as a 'good'.
>
> > > One can try to teach what one believes is true and in simple morality
> > > this is what one ought to do. The actual situation is much more
> > > complex. The jobs available in teaching (apart from a few little
> > > eddies I have occupied) are nearly all to do with teaching the rot,
> > > because this is the cheapest way universities can devise. The moral
> > > choice of not teaching rot changes to a choice not to teach (and get
> > > paid) - partly because your own students will be examined on the rot
> > > because you are teaching as part of a 'team' and all students are set
> > > the same questions as part of standardisation. If you don't teach the
> > > muck you put your students at a disadvantage.
>
> > > I see no answers to the moral conundrum - other than just to walk
> > > away, putting distance between oneself and the madness.
>
> > --
> > (
> > )
> > |_D Allan
>
> > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

[MSUAtheists]:752 Re: Reason Rally Updates [ Bus Available, now to confirm the reservation. ]

2012-02-02T00:06:00.001-08:00

Actually, no need for places to stay! I'll explain at the meeting!
Hurray!

Tomorrow I'll give a small tutorial on how to get your 50% off in case
it confuses you.

Don't pay more than $55.

On Feb 1, 9:57 pm, "Chris D." <anauthenticathe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've contacted a bus service, if we can get 40ish people to sign up,
> then we will have transportation to and from the event. The cost for
> the bus on a round trip per person is $55 after you use the coupon.
>
> If you're on facebook, visit this link. (Like the Sauce page while
> you're at it)
>
> It's a screenshot that I took right before I reserved my spot. It
> shows that the price is $55, departure times and other information.
>
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=209746675788592&set=a.2097466...
>
> If for some reason we can't get 40 people, the shuttles will be merged
> or they will give you a full refund.
>
> Now to start scavenging for places to stay...
>
> If you know of someone in the D.C. area, go ahead and start making
> calls to see if you can stay there and if they would consider allowing
> a few more people to stay as well.
>
> If you have any other questions ask!

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Re: Mind's Eye What really lies in simple moral positions?

2012-02-01T23:28:00.001-08:00

pocket change is important and Vam is right.

Allan

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 8:24 AM, Allan H <allanh1946@gmail.com> wrote:

I had a lot of problems with morality (fine details) when I was a cop.. My Boss set me down and said "Allan, it is this way 'We's da good guys, da's da bad guys. sie" Even today it put morality in its proper place.

If you understand your own morality it seems you can separate that from the world you you working,, it will also allows you to know where the line is.. and that can be taught as part of the course..
Allan

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 6:14 AM, Vam <atewari2007@gmail.com> wrote:

I do not think refusing a means to livelihood is any solution to the
moral conundrum, if one is not able to afford the decision nor have an
alternate opportunity in line with one's moral preference.

Delivering the rot with one's own insight is not impossible. For
instance, the reviled "strategic" makes sense when it stands for a
change or intervention that improves the whole [ organisation,
process, service, product, reach, cost...] And, Koetler is not rot...
as a reference for concepts, activities, processes.

What is rotten is the immoral practice, use and effect. There was this
MD of a contracting organisation who was siphoning off steel and
cement procured at project sites, even while he had commissioned my
services to implement Project Mgt & Control System in his orgn. It
stank ! That was untenable.

On Feb 2, 1:54 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I had a sense of doing what seemed right as a cop Allan - even though
> most situations were difficult to see a right side in. The academy
> stinks as in the State of Denmark and I get to feel the only thing is
> to retreat to the margins. My working guess is that it's
> "meritocracy" that sucks.
>
> On Feb 1, 8:30 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > not being obnoxious, The that comes to my mind is just what is your
> > understanding of morality and how it is applied in ones life.
> > Understanding morality on a personal level can be quite difficult,
> > especially if you want it to make sense.
> > Allan
>
> > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 7:39 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I hope to spend the next 5 years "not teaching" - a difficult
> > > financial decision as this is my 'ready-to-hand' income. Some years
> > > back I tried to take and stick to a decision not to teach 'ideological
> > > rot' - broadly the mainstream of business and economic subjects. This
> > > might seem a fairly easy personal, moral decision; yet it isn't.
>
> > > The interesting issues don't concern the easy morality of doing what's
> > > right. One can find plenty of material, from Critical Theory through
> > > to deconstructive approaches to behaviour and critical psychology -
> > > and once, very critical management books like Peter Anthony's
> > > 'Foundation of Management' and sort programmes out on the basis of
> > > these. Thus one could teach material one might feel credible and
> > > stretching, broadly aimed at students learning critical reasoning. I
> > > do offer modules based around writers like David Graeber, Steve Keen
> > > and modern blogs at the moment.
>
> > > What muddies the waters is a combination of streamlining costs in HE
> > > and more or less the extirpation of syllabus control by academics,
> > > along with a massive dilution of student brain-power and the
> > > connection of student success with the numbers we pass. This
> > > situation makes moral judgement very difficult and academe has
> > > collapsed altogether as a moral place.
>
> > > Economics has long been taught as a science - an utter farce - and
> > > management theories are only fit for ridicule (excellence, kwality and
> > > anything with 'strategic' in it). The world works around power and
> > > rhetoric, and this is the only real content of such "theories".
>
> > > The madness that underlies all this is that we never address what the
> > > real issues might be. Accumulated wealth is clearly a problem for
> > > democracy as it inevitably means some will benefit by doing nothing
> > > while others work and that the wealth will be used to influence
> > > politics and the very ground of commercial competition. Yet with no
> > > consideration of this we leap into "theorising" in a system that
> > > applauds the creation of excess wealth in few hands as a 'good'.
>
> > > One can try to teach what one believes is true and in simple morality
> > > this is what one ought to do. The actual situation is much more
> > > complex. The jobs available in teaching (apart from a few little
> > > eddies I have occupied) are nearly all to do with teaching the rot,
> > > because this is the cheapest way universities can devise. The moral
> > > choice of not teaching rot changes to a choice not to teach (and get
> > > paid) - partly because your own students will be examined on the rot
> > > because you are teaching as part of a 'team' and all students are set
> > > the same questions as part of standardisation. If you don't teach the
> > > muck you put your students at a disadvantage.
>
> > > I see no answers to the moral conundrum - other than just to walk
> > > away, putting distance between oneself and the madness.
>
> > --
> > (
> > )
> > |_D Allan
>
> > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

--
(
)
|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

--
(

)

|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Re: Mind's Eye What really lies in simple moral positions?

2012-02-01T23:24:00.000-08:00

I had a lot of problems with morality (fine details) when I was a cop.. My Boss set me down and said "Allan, it is this way 'We's da good guys, da's da bad guys. sie" Even today it put morality in its proper place.

If you understand your own morality it seems you can separate that from the world you you working,, it will also allows you to know where the line is.. and that can be taught as part of the course..

Allan

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 6:14 AM, Vam <atewari2007@gmail.com> wrote:

I do not think refusing a means to livelihood is any solution to the
moral conundrum, if one is not able to afford the decision nor have an
alternate opportunity in line with one's moral preference.

Delivering the rot with one's own insight is not impossible. For
instance, the reviled "strategic" makes sense when it stands for a
change or intervention that improves the whole [ organisation,
process, service, product, reach, cost...] And, Koetler is not rot...
as a reference for concepts, activities, processes.

What is rotten is the immoral practice, use and effect. There was this
MD of a contracting organisation who was siphoning off steel and
cement procured at project sites, even while he had commissioned my
services to implement Project Mgt & Control System in his orgn. It
stank ! That was untenable.

On Feb 2, 1:54 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I had a sense of doing what seemed right as a cop Allan - even though
> most situations were difficult to see a right side in. The academy
> stinks as in the State of Denmark and I get to feel the only thing is
> to retreat to the margins. My working guess is that it's
> "meritocracy" that sucks.
>
> On Feb 1, 8:30 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > not being obnoxious, The that comes to my mind is just what is your
> > understanding of morality and how it is applied in ones life.
> > Understanding morality on a personal level can be quite difficult,
> > especially if you want it to make sense.
> > Allan
>
> > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 7:39 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I hope to spend the next 5 years "not teaching" - a difficult
> > > financial decision as this is my 'ready-to-hand' income. Some years
> > > back I tried to take and stick to a decision not to teach 'ideological
> > > rot' - broadly the mainstream of business and economic subjects. This
> > > might seem a fairly easy personal, moral decision; yet it isn't.
>
> > > The interesting issues don't concern the easy morality of doing what's
> > > right. One can find plenty of material, from Critical Theory through
> > > to deconstructive approaches to behaviour and critical psychology -
> > > and once, very critical management books like Peter Anthony's
> > > 'Foundation of Management' and sort programmes out on the basis of
> > > these. Thus one could teach material one might feel credible and
> > > stretching, broadly aimed at students learning critical reasoning. I
> > > do offer modules based around writers like David Graeber, Steve Keen
> > > and modern blogs at the moment.
>
> > > What muddies the waters is a combination of streamlining costs in HE
> > > and more or less the extirpation of syllabus control by academics,
> > > along with a massive dilution of student brain-power and the
> > > connection of student success with the numbers we pass. This
> > > situation makes moral judgement very difficult and academe has
> > > collapsed altogether as a moral place.
>
> > > Economics has long been taught as a science - an utter farce - and
> > > management theories are only fit for ridicule (excellence, kwality and
> > > anything with 'strategic' in it). The world works around power and
> > > rhetoric, and this is the only real content of such "theories".
>
> > > The madness that underlies all this is that we never address what the
> > > real issues might be. Accumulated wealth is clearly a problem for
> > > democracy as it inevitably means some will benefit by doing nothing
> > > while others work and that the wealth will be used to influence
> > > politics and the very ground of commercial competition. Yet with no
> > > consideration of this we leap into "theorising" in a system that
> > > applauds the creation of excess wealth in few hands as a 'good'.
>
> > > One can try to teach what one believes is true and in simple morality
> > > this is what one ought to do. The actual situation is much more
> > > complex. The jobs available in teaching (apart from a few little
> > > eddies I have occupied) are nearly all to do with teaching the rot,
> > > because this is the cheapest way universities can devise. The moral
> > > choice of not teaching rot changes to a choice not to teach (and get
> > > paid) - partly because your own students will be examined on the rot
> > > because you are teaching as part of a 'team' and all students are set
> > > the same questions as part of standardisation. If you don't teach the
> > > muck you put your students at a disadvantage.
>
> > > I see no answers to the moral conundrum - other than just to walk
> > > away, putting distance between oneself and the madness.
>
> > --
> > (
> > )
> > |_D Allan
>
> > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

--
(

)

|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Re: Mind's Eye Facebook IPO rip-off?

2012-02-01T23:00:00.000-08:00

I am not putting my money it are you?

Allan

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 2:15 AM, James Lynch <ashkashal@gmail.com> wrote:

This reminds me of the whole Second Life flurry, I recall hearing of
companies spending millions to purchase virtual real-estate. For some
reason it made me think of land rights and block busting, government
and corporate interests. It'e not what you know but who, the guy who
came up with that billion dollar idea for check digitizing. Guess how
much he got, if he were a major corporation that could lobby congress
I'm sure justice would weigh the same, right? Still wondering how the
hell first to file will help the USPTO, but that's not the point is
it. :|

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 4:31 PM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
> There is, of course, no sensible reason to invest in FB or any of
> dotcon 2 - http://www.zerohedge.com/news/facebook-ipo-because-time-its-different
>
>
> On Feb 1, 1:58 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 'Free lance' once meant exactly that - a term from the 100 Years War
>> (which was mostly about British mercenaries screwing Europe). I have
>> a Facebook account but find the 'place' boring - I don't do that kind
>> of stuff for real and have no interest in the virtual form. Don't
>> quite see you on a charger spearing peasants rigs! I'm quite sure the
>> Internet generally is mostly a waste of space and has a potential we
>> are barely grasping at all. Facebook looks like leading 'dotcon 2'.
>>
>> On Feb 1, 11:36 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Most women I know consider the founder creepy and haven't signed on-
>> > one, an artist, advised to get "out there" to boost sales and name
>> > recognition. Someone has been trying to get me on a business social
>> > group but I haven't taken it up since they decided I was a "free
>> > lance"- whatever that is!
>>
>> > On Feb 1, 12:46 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > the only reason I use face book now is because my daughter is ther and it
>> > > is how I keep track of what is happening in her life..
>> > > I like the new EU laws that require these massive companies to turn over
>> > > all information they have on you on request.. and also have to delete all
>> > > information also on request.. will glad when they take effect..
>> > > The companies don't like the fines involved if they don't comply.
>> > > Allan
>>
>> > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 12:50 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > The selling point of Facebook is supposedly the "lock-in" it has one
>> > > > you as a customer because your friends are there. I can't really be
>> > > > bothered with it because so many people I don't want to know are
>> > > > there! And all the spam and dire else that comes with the Internet.
>> > > > I do shop online, but that's largely because I don't like shops and
>> > > > shopping - plus some stuff is much cheaper than my 'local' chain-
>> > > > store.
>>
>> > > > What I'd like to be able to do is buy in advance direct from
>> > > > manufacturers in an environment of peer review on quality and
>> > > > service. One can easily imagine a kind of auction service for such in
>> > > > which I put up what I want and manufacturers and service suppliers
>> > > > could bid to fulfill my needs and that of my agreed collective. I'd
>> > > > want fellow members to be able to control and advertising and for a
>> > > > collective representation if things go wrong.
>>
>> > > > The technology to run Facebook is hardly a barrier to entry. My idea
>> > > > would be to undercut retailing through a new logistic model that would
>> > > > not involve the collective auction becoming a retailer or holding
>> > > > stock. One example is Green Metropolis which just takes a fee on
>> > > > books held by members and sold through its site.
>>
>> > > > I think a lot of fingers will get burned over Facebook. I wonder if
>> > > > there is an alternative that would not be concerned with retailing and
>> > > > all its gimmicks? I've never responded to a Google ad so far and
>> > > > suspect there must be a better way to source essentials.
>>
>> > > --
>> > > (
>> > > )
>> > > |_D Allan
>>
>> > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > > - Show quoted text -

--
(

)

|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Re: Mind's Eye Re: Truth & I

2012-02-01T22:55:00.001-08:00

R U OK James?

Allan

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 2:07 AM, James Lynch <ashkashal@gmail.com> wrote:

Oops, wrong thread! Ringing head, dizziness, and nausea are starting
to bug me, distracting too. Enough already. Be well everyone. :)

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 7:04 PM, James Lynch <ashkashal@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you don't think your students pick up on a slight hesitation or
> unconscious facial signal that a theory is bunk I think you are
> selling yourself short Neil. We are in a rapidly changing world, but
> some things haven't, conscience for example, you have the haves and
> have-nots. I think there is compelling evidence that we could live
> more fulfilling lives in the service to mankind, but when faced with
> the decision to sink or float/soar many are doing what they think is
> necessary even if it is rotting at the core of civilisation. We will
> craft our beliefs of right and wrong to fit the world we know, mostly
> I think. Identity and seeing oneself in the mirror helps but requires
> more than a single image as we need comparisons, it would help to say
> hey something else would work and people are doing it. A new labor
> class perhaps, philosophically motivated?
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 6:40 PM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I think we are always stuck in an irrational situation, generally the
>> makings of others. Science makes some kind of clearing for
>> rationality and inventiveness. Heidegger opined on clearings as being
>> amongst the real things of the world rather than facing them in
>> thought 'where the backs were missing, but that didn't help him see
>> the Nazis for what they were. One can probably "curl up" by taking
>> action - as a cop in a pub brawl or whatever our countries ask of us
>> as soldiers, our societies of mothers and so on. I've found myself
>> coping in action fully aware of its ludicrous nature and wondering if
>> there is any freedom from it other than that given by adrenaline and
>> the steel put in in training to do the noxious.
>> There's a strange rationale that we somehow have to do what's right in
>> what is already an irrational mess and act as though rational against
>> some bigger picture that we are the good guys - a view unseated
>> everywhere by realistic history. The question for me is whether we
>> can do much with our knowledge in a world in which few will give up on
>> the comfort of knowing very little.
>>
>> On Feb 1, 11:50 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Also- I think if we really knew the consequences of our acts and
>>> choices we might just curl up into a ball and do nothing. One friend
>>> and I chuckle that we're all pretty much on an assembly line...
>>>
>>> On Feb 1, 5:27 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Just to clarify my thought- that luck and timing can be good, bad or
>>> > indifferent. Also rather than active thinking being a debate, it is
>>> > more like selection. Literature and social sciences deal with layered
>>> > communication- for instance, withholding facts, feelings or motives.
>>> > It is often called discretion. :-) How do you mean "identity"?
>>>
>>> > On Jan 31, 11:09 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > The 'making sense of things later' seems true even in the split second
>>> > > in brain research. I regard all strategy as retrospectively devised!
>>> > > There's a book just out by Hill and Myatt (economists) on just how
>>> > > facile economics teaching is in universities - but this contains
>>> > > nothing on how this has happened. Some of this seems to me connected
>>> > > with a lack of movement beyond identity Molly.
>>>
>>> > > On Jan 31, 1:30 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > Part of human nature is to identify with people, thoughts, ideas
>>> > > > around us. Being able to witness your identification, and moving
>>> > > > beyond it is the real treasure.
>>>
>>> > > > On Jan 29, 9:10 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > Molly your question has my mind running around its dust bins. Most my
>>> > > > > thoughts are not original but more composites of other ideas. They are like
>>> > > > > hand me downs,, like the 3D image comes from watching how people search
>>> > > > > for treasure on sunken vessels, it is rags from a different ?idea?.
>>>
>>> > > > > My world is a world of rags in the form of other ideas.
>>> > > > > Allan
>>> > > > > On Jan 29, 2012 8:21 PM, "Allan H" <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > > Yeah it is kind of like an old dog sappen on his favorite bone.
>>>
>>> > > > > > it is trying to understand others, and what I have experienced As I have
>>> > > > > > very few friends that like discussing God I talk to myself a lot..which is
>>> > > > > > no problem as I am never really alone,.
>>> > > > > > Allan
>>>
>>> > > > > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > >> Not at all irrelevant. did you have more thoughts about this?
>>>
>>> > > > > >> On Jan 28, 10:19 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > > > > >> > Hi Mol&Rigs, listening to you two I've been asking myself why none of
>>> > > > > >> > you mentions Jung and his description of the collective unconscious. I
>>> > > > > >> > haven't read the Red Book yet, but maybe of of you has and could tell
>>> > > > > >> > me why this is irrelevant to what you are discussing.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > On Jan 27, 2:35 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > The paramount paradox.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > On Jan 27, 8:21 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > Yes- I've read a lot of Campbell and admire his efforts. In fact, I
>>> > > > > >> > > > was going to put the Oriental Mythology of his Masks of God series
>>> > > > > >> > > > aside to reread- Indian, Chinese and Japanese chapters. I wish I
>>> > > > > >> could
>>> > > > > >> > > > keep certain studies on top of my thinking but maybe I have read so
>>> > > > > >> > > > much there is a chute to forgetfulness or a pit of scrambled
>>> > > > > >> > > > ideas! :-) Oh, dear!
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > However, back to your comment about looking back/within. I consider
>>> > > > > >> > > > there is impossible split between the spiritual and material and yet
>>> > > > > >> > > > that is our struggle to bridge- if possible.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > On Jan 27, 6:32 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > Do myths disappear? Joseph Campbell mapped common human myth
>>> > > > > >> around
>>> > > > > >> > > > > the word and through time to discover a mechanism something close
>>> > > > > >> to
>>> > > > > >> > > > > common memory - the expression of the same archetypes in real
>>> > > > > >> time,
>>> > > > > >> > > > > isolated incidents around the globe and at the same time. This
>>> > > > > >> > > > > phenomena has occurred throughout human history. This may tell us
>>> > > > > >> > > > > that it is not the looking back that is important, but as Vam
>>> > > > > >> says,
>>> > > > > >> > > > > looking within.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > On Jan 26, 5:54 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > What is original? I might argue that one is simply explicating
>>> > > > > >> what
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > already exists.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > Each generation assumes it has a distinct character- or needs
>>> > > > > >> to prove
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > that it has.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > Was thinking the reason myths disappear is because they were
>>> > > > > >> oral and
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > native languages are usually suppressed by the conquerors. One
>>> > > > > >> also
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > carries family myths- which interfere with deep communication.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > Yes- there are terrible inequities- all the more scandalous
>>> > > > > >> because
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > there really is plenty to go around so the root is greed and
>>> > > > > >> distain
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > for others. Governments only pretend to care for all its
>>> > > > > >> citizens- it
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > picks and chooses.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > We passed the Gilded Age- I would call this the Tinsel Age.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > On Jan 25, 9:45 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > I would say, Vam, that you often jump in the water with an
>>> > > > > >> 'entourage'
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > of assumptive baggage. I probably dislike citation more than
>>> > > > > >> you and
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > am not the first. Veblen would be a good start (to use some
>>> > > > > >> rough
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > citation). These days, you can at least Google the name.
>>> > > > > >> When I
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > started it meant a trip to the library. Anyone who has the
>>> > > > > >> chance to
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > read a lot of what's available (this is still remarkably few)
>>> > > > > >> should
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > discover most of what they thought their own ideas have been
>>> > > > > >> done
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > before. The idea is no doubt to try to 'stand on the
>>> > > > > >> shoulders of
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > giants' (itself a wisecrack by Newton on Hooke's dwarfish
>>> > > > > >> stature).
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > The 'giants' always turn out flawed. Moses is a war criminal
>>> > > > > >> in
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > Numbers 31, the Greeks, for all their argument, never
>>> > > > > >> produced a
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > decent one against slavery (the lunatic-religious John Brown
>>> > > > > >> being
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > better). Many, because they don't read enough, attribute
>>> > > > > >> 'relativity'
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > to Einstein, but it has a longer and wider history. The
>>> > > > > >> chattering
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > class reinvents the square wheel all over the place.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > What if the best of our system is fascist and we have grown
>>> > > > > >> in such
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > culture, or a caste system? By what processes do we get an
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > understanding for change from such? Western propaganda would
>>> > > > > >> have us
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > believe pouring resources into the gullets of the rich is
>>> > > > > >> sensible.
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > We all live in the gutter. Only some of us lift our eyes to
>>> > > > > >> the
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > stars. If only I was smart enough to have been first to
>>> > > > > >> that! (Oscar
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > Wilde) A common jibe by academics is that common sense is
>>> > > > > >> that which
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > allows us to believe the world is flat - yet flat-earth was an
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > academic construction - one can actually see the curvature of
>>> > > > > >> the
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > Earth.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > What we need is reliable collective memory. Given our
>>> > > > > >> capacity to
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > pervert, citation is usually used in a highly selective
>>> > > > > >> manner,
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > usually along with a core academic (religious etc.) narrative
>>> > > > > >> of
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > exclusion of competing argument. Control of what is reliable
>>> > > > > >> memory
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > is, of course, just what those in power want to maintain -
>>> > > > > >> perhaps
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > through principles of Home and Vanity. I will always prefer
>>> > > > > >> the
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > margins to this, remembering that to oppose tyranny can
>>> > > > > >> pervert into
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > its support.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > Deconstruction is only a beginning. I believe its spirit
>>> > > > > >> concerns a
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > defeat of madness that includes rationalist fantasy and animal
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > consensus (which I sense as grasping, selfish individualism
>>> > > > > >> easy to
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > rule).
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > On Jan 25, 3:26 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > "Is this not an important part of the dynamic
>>> > > > > >> multidimensional mind
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > Vam, can you find nothing of value with meeting this view
>>> > > > > >> at least as
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > a challenge?"
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > James, starting with God is a bad idea. Perhaps, ending up
>>> > > > > >> at it is
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > what needs to happen. Dawkins was in Jaipur here and I
>>> > > > > >> found his view
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > a lot more balanced, less bigoted and militant.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > And Neil is right : it must deal with morality. Where his
>>> > > > > >> discourse
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > runs dry is when he is quoting other people ! That is also
>>> > > > > >> my
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> read more »

--
(

)

|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Washington's enemy is not "terrorism" but the principle of free speech and voices of conscience

2012-02-01T21:53:00.001-08:00

In The Assange Case We Are All Suspects Now

Washington's enemy is not "terrorism" but the principle of free speech and voices of conscience within its militarist state.

By John Pilger

February 01, 2012 "Information Clearing House" --- This month's Supreme Court hearing in the Julian Assange case has profound meaning for the preservation of basic freedoms in western democracies.

This is Assange's final appeal against his extradition to Sweden to face allegations of sexual misconduct that were originally dismissed by the chief prosecutor in Stockholm and constitute no crime in Britain.

The consequences, if he loses, lie not in Sweden but in the shadows cast by America's descent into totalitarianism. In Sweden, he is at risk of being "temporarily surrendered" to the US, where his life has been threatened and he is accused of "aiding the enemy" with Bradley Manning, the young soldier accused of leaking evidence of US war crimes to WikiLeaks.

The connections between Manning and Assange have been concocted by a secret grand jury in Virginia that allowed no defence counsel or witnesses, and by a system of plea-bargaining that ensures a 90 per cent conviction rate. It is reminiscent of a Soviet show trial.

Moral choice

The Obama administration's determination to crush Assange is revealed in secret Australian government documents, released under Freedom of Information, which describe Washington's pursuit of WikiLeaks as "unprecedented". It is unprecedented because it subverts the First Amendment of the US constitution, which protects truth-tellers such as WikiLeaks.

In 2008 Barack Obama said, "Government whistleblowers are part of a healthy democracy and must be protected from reprisal." Obama has since prosecuted twice as many whistleblowers as all previous US presidents.

With US courts demanding to see the worldwide accounts of Twitter, Google and Yahoo, the threat to Assange, an Australian, extends to any internet user anywhere. Washington's enemy is not "terrorism" but the principle of free speech and voices of conscience within its militarist state and those journalists brave enough to tell their stories.

"How do you prosecute Julian Assange and not the New York Times?" a former administration official told Reuters.

The threat is well understood by the New York Times, which in 2010 published a selection of the WikiLeaks cables. The editor at the time, Bill Keller, boasted that he had sent the cables to the state department for vetting. His obeisance extended to his denial that WikiLeaks was a "partner" - which it was - and to personal attacks on Assange.

The message to all journalists was clear: do your job as it should be done and you are traitors; do your job as we say you should and you are journalists.

Much of the media's depiction of Bradley Manning illuminates this. The world's pre-eminent prisoner of conscience, Manning remained true to the Nuremberg principle that every soldier has the right to a "moral choice".

But according to the New York Times, he is weird or mad, a "geek". In an "exclusive investigation", the Guardian reported him as an "unstable" gay man who got "out of control" and who "wet himself" when he was "picked on".

Such psycho-hearsay serves to suppress the truth of the outrage Manning felt at the wanton killing in Iraq, his moral heroism and the criminal complicity of his military superiors. "I prefer a painful truth over any blissful fantasy," he reportedly said.

The treatment handed out to Assange is well documented, though not the duplicitous and cowardly behaviour of his own government. Australia remains a colony in all but name. Australian intelligence agencies are branches of the main office in Washington. The Australian military has played a regular role as US mercenary.

When Prime Minister Gough Whitlam tried to change this in 1975 and secure Australia's partial independence, he was dismissed by a governor general using archaic "reserve powers" who was revealed to have intelligence connections.

Don't explain

WikiLeaks has given Australians a rare glimpse of how their country is run. In 2010, leaked US cables disclosed that top government figures in the Labor Party coup that brought Julia Gillard to power were "protected" sources of the US embassy: what the CIA calls "assets". Kevin Rudd, the prime minister Gillard ousted, apparently had displeased Washington by being disobedient, even suggesting that Australian troops withdraw from Afghanistan.

In the wake of her portentous rise to power, Gillard attacked WikiLeaks's actions as "illegal" and her attorney general threatened to withdraw Assange's passport. Yet the Australian Federal Police reported that Assange and WikiLeaks had broken no law.

Freedom of Information files have since shown that Australian diplomats have colluded with the US in its pursuit of Assange. This is not unusual. The government of John Howard ignored the rule of law and conspired with the US to keep David Hicks, an Australian citizen, in Guantanamo Bay, where he was tortured.

Australia's principal intelligence organisation, Asio, is allowed to imprison refugees indefinitely without explanation, prosecution or appeal.

Every Australian citizen in grave difficulty overseas is said to have the right to diplomatic support. The denial of this to Assange, bar the perfunctory, is an unreported scandal.

Last September his London lawyer, Gareth Peirce, wrote to the Australian government warning that Assange's "personal safety and security has become at risk in circumstances that have become highly politically charged". Only when the Melbourne Age reported that she had received no response did a dissembling official letter turn up.

In November, Peirce and I briefed the Australian consul general in London, Ken Pascoe. One of Britain's most experienced human rights lawyers, Peirce told him she feared a unique miscarriage of justice if Assange was extradited and his government remained silent. The silence remains

John Pilger, renowned investigative journalist and documentary film-maker, is one of only two to have twice won British journalism's top award; his documentaries have won academy awards in both the UK and the US. In a New Statesman survey of the 50 heroes of our time, Pilger came fourth behind Aung San Suu Kyi and Nelson Mandela. "John Pilger," wrote Harold Pinter, "unearths, with steely attention facts, the filthy truth. I salute him."

This article was forst posted at www.newstatesman.com

Ashraf M. Abbasi, PhD.
Ambassador at Large P Think before you print! Save energy and paper.

President: 2003-2005 Chairman-Presidents Council: 2005-2007 Chairman Advisory Council: 2007-2009

The Pakistan American Congress (Washington, DC.) is an umbrella entity of Pakistani-Americans & Pakistani organizations in America since 1990. It is incorporated as a non-profit, non-religious, and non- partisan premier community organization. It serves as a catalyst of social, educational, and political activities which promotes the interests and protects the civil rights & liberties of the Pakistani-Americans in the U.S. It is also vigorously involved in promoting good will, understanding, and friendship between the two countries & two people.

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Re: Mind's Eye What really lies in simple moral positions?

2012-02-01T21:14:00.001-08:00

I do not think refusing a means to livelihood is any solution to the
moral conundrum, if one is not able to afford the decision nor have an
alternate opportunity in line with one's moral preference.

Delivering the rot with one's own insight is not impossible. For
instance, the reviled "strategic" makes sense when it stands for a
change or intervention that improves the whole [ organisation,
process, service, product, reach, cost...] And, Koetler is not rot...
as a reference for concepts, activities, processes.

What is rotten is the immoral practice, use and effect. There was this
MD of a contracting organisation who was siphoning off steel and
cement procured at project sites, even while he had commissioned my
services to implement Project Mgt & Control System in his orgn. It
stank ! That was untenable.

On Feb 2, 1:54 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I had a sense of doing what seemed right as a cop Allan - even though
> most situations were difficult to see a right side in. The academy
> stinks as in the State of Denmark and I get to feel the only thing is
> to retreat to the margins. My working guess is that it's
> "meritocracy" that sucks.
>
> On Feb 1, 8:30 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > not being obnoxious, The that comes to my mind is just what is your
> > understanding of morality and how it is applied in ones life.
> > Understanding morality on a personal level can be quite difficult,
> > especially if you want it to make sense.
> > Allan
>
> > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 7:39 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I hope to spend the next 5 years "not teaching" - a difficult
> > > financial decision as this is my 'ready-to-hand' income. Some years
> > > back I tried to take and stick to a decision not to teach 'ideological
> > > rot' - broadly the mainstream of business and economic subjects. This
> > > might seem a fairly easy personal, moral decision; yet it isn't.
>
> > > The interesting issues don't concern the easy morality of doing what's
> > > right. One can find plenty of material, from Critical Theory through
> > > to deconstructive approaches to behaviour and critical psychology -
> > > and once, very critical management books like Peter Anthony's
> > > 'Foundation of Management' and sort programmes out on the basis of
> > > these. Thus one could teach material one might feel credible and
> > > stretching, broadly aimed at students learning critical reasoning. I
> > > do offer modules based around writers like David Graeber, Steve Keen
> > > and modern blogs at the moment.
>
> > > What muddies the waters is a combination of streamlining costs in HE
> > > and more or less the extirpation of syllabus control by academics,
> > > along with a massive dilution of student brain-power and the
> > > connection of student success with the numbers we pass. This
> > > situation makes moral judgement very difficult and academe has
> > > collapsed altogether as a moral place.
>
> > > Economics has long been taught as a science - an utter farce - and
> > > management theories are only fit for ridicule (excellence, kwality and
> > > anything with 'strategic' in it). The world works around power and
> > > rhetoric, and this is the only real content of such "theories".
>
> > > The madness that underlies all this is that we never address what the
> > > real issues might be. Accumulated wealth is clearly a problem for
> > > democracy as it inevitably means some will benefit by doing nothing
> > > while others work and that the wealth will be used to influence
> > > politics and the very ground of commercial competition. Yet with no
> > > consideration of this we leap into "theorising" in a system that
> > > applauds the creation of excess wealth in few hands as a 'good'.
>
> > > One can try to teach what one believes is true and in simple morality
> > > this is what one ought to do. The actual situation is much more
> > > complex. The jobs available in teaching (apart from a few little
> > > eddies I have occupied) are nearly all to do with teaching the rot,
> > > because this is the cheapest way universities can devise. The moral
> > > choice of not teaching rot changes to a choice not to teach (and get
> > > paid) - partly because your own students will be examined on the rot
> > > because you are teaching as part of a 'team' and all students are set
> > > the same questions as part of standardisation. If you don't teach the
> > > muck you put your students at a disadvantage.
>
> > > I see no answers to the moral conundrum - other than just to walk
> > > away, putting distance between oneself and the madness.
>
> > --
> > (
> > )
> > |_D Allan
>
> > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

[MSUAtheists]:751 Reason Rally Updates [ Bus Available, now to confirm the reservation. ]

2012-02-01T19:57:00.001-08:00

I've contacted a bus service, if we can get 40ish people to sign up,
then we will have transportation to and from the event. The cost for
the bus on a round trip per person is $55 after you use the coupon.

If you're on facebook, visit this link. (Like the Sauce page while
you're at it)

It's a screenshot that I took right before I reserved my spot. It
shows that the price is $55, departure times and other information.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=209746675788592&set=a.209746672455259.46955.144343718995555&type=1&theater

If for some reason we can't get 40 people, the shuttles will be merged
or they will give you a full refund.

Now to start scavenging for places to stay...

If you know of someone in the D.C. area, go ahead and start making
calls to see if you can stay there and if they would consider allowing
a few more people to stay as well.

If you have any other questions ask!

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Re: Mind's Eye Facebook IPO rip-off?

2012-02-01T17:15:00.001-08:00

This reminds me of the whole Second Life flurry, I recall hearing of
companies spending millions to purchase virtual real-estate. For some
reason it made me think of land rights and block busting, government
and corporate interests. It'e not what you know but who, the guy who
came up with that billion dollar idea for check digitizing. Guess how
much he got, if he were a major corporation that could lobby congress
I'm sure justice would weigh the same, right? Still wondering how the
hell first to file will help the USPTO, but that's not the point is
it. :|

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 4:31 PM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
> There is, of course, no sensible reason to invest in FB or any of
> dotcon 2 - http://www.zerohedge.com/news/facebook-ipo-because-time-its-different
>
>
> On Feb 1, 1:58 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 'Free lance' once meant exactly that - a term from the 100 Years War
>> (which was mostly about British mercenaries screwing Europe). I have
>> a Facebook account but find the 'place' boring - I don't do that kind
>> of stuff for real and have no interest in the virtual form. Don't
>> quite see you on a charger spearing peasants rigs! I'm quite sure the
>> Internet generally is mostly a waste of space and has a potential we
>> are barely grasping at all. Facebook looks like leading 'dotcon 2'.
>>
>> On Feb 1, 11:36 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Most women I know consider the founder creepy and haven't signed on-
>> > one, an artist, advised to get "out there" to boost sales and name
>> > recognition. Someone has been trying to get me on a business social
>> > group but I haven't taken it up since they decided I was a "free
>> > lance"- whatever that is!
>>
>> > On Feb 1, 12:46 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > the only reason I use face book now is because my daughter is ther and it
>> > > is how I keep track of what is happening in her life..
>> > > I like the new EU laws that require these massive companies to turn over
>> > > all information they have on you on request.. and also have to delete all
>> > > information also on request.. will glad when they take effect..
>> > > The companies don't like the fines involved if they don't comply.
>> > > Allan
>>
>> > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 12:50 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > The selling point of Facebook is supposedly the "lock-in" it has one
>> > > > you as a customer because your friends are there. I can't really be
>> > > > bothered with it because so many people I don't want to know are
>> > > > there! And all the spam and dire else that comes with the Internet.
>> > > > I do shop online, but that's largely because I don't like shops and
>> > > > shopping - plus some stuff is much cheaper than my 'local' chain-
>> > > > store.
>>
>> > > > What I'd like to be able to do is buy in advance direct from
>> > > > manufacturers in an environment of peer review on quality and
>> > > > service. One can easily imagine a kind of auction service for such in
>> > > > which I put up what I want and manufacturers and service suppliers
>> > > > could bid to fulfill my needs and that of my agreed collective. I'd
>> > > > want fellow members to be able to control and advertising and for a
>> > > > collective representation if things go wrong.
>>
>> > > > The technology to run Facebook is hardly a barrier to entry. My idea
>> > > > would be to undercut retailing through a new logistic model that would
>> > > > not involve the collective auction becoming a retailer or holding
>> > > > stock. One example is Green Metropolis which just takes a fee on
>> > > > books held by members and sold through its site.
>>
>> > > > I think a lot of fingers will get burned over Facebook. I wonder if
>> > > > there is an alternative that would not be concerned with retailing and
>> > > > all its gimmicks? I've never responded to a Google ad so far and
>> > > > suspect there must be a better way to source essentials.
>>
>> > > --
>> > > (
>> > > )
>> > > |_D Allan
>>
>> > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > > - Show quoted text -

Re: Mind's Eye Re: Truth & I

2012-02-01T17:07:00.001-08:00

Oops, wrong thread! Ringing head, dizziness, and nausea are starting
to bug me, distracting too. Enough already. Be well everyone. :)

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 7:04 PM, James Lynch <ashkashal@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you don't think your students pick up on a slight hesitation or
> unconscious facial signal that a theory is bunk I think you are
> selling yourself short Neil. We are in a rapidly changing world, but
> some things haven't, conscience for example, you have the haves and
> have-nots. I think there is compelling evidence that we could live
> more fulfilling lives in the service to mankind, but when faced with
> the decision to sink or float/soar many are doing what they think is
> necessary even if it is rotting at the core of civilisation. We will
> craft our beliefs of right and wrong to fit the world we know, mostly
> I think. Identity and seeing oneself in the mirror helps but requires
> more than a single image as we need comparisons, it would help to say
> hey something else would work and people are doing it. A new labor
> class perhaps, philosophically motivated?
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 6:40 PM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I think we are always stuck in an irrational situation, generally the
>> makings of others. Science makes some kind of clearing for
>> rationality and inventiveness. Heidegger opined on clearings as being
>> amongst the real things of the world rather than facing them in
>> thought 'where the backs were missing, but that didn't help him see
>> the Nazis for what they were. One can probably "curl up" by taking
>> action - as a cop in a pub brawl or whatever our countries ask of us
>> as soldiers, our societies of mothers and so on. I've found myself
>> coping in action fully aware of its ludicrous nature and wondering if
>> there is any freedom from it other than that given by adrenaline and
>> the steel put in in training to do the noxious.
>> There's a strange rationale that we somehow have to do what's right in
>> what is already an irrational mess and act as though rational against
>> some bigger picture that we are the good guys - a view unseated
>> everywhere by realistic history. The question for me is whether we
>> can do much with our knowledge in a world in which few will give up on
>> the comfort of knowing very little.
>>
>> On Feb 1, 11:50 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Also- I think if we really knew the consequences of our acts and
>>> choices we might just curl up into a ball and do nothing. One friend
>>> and I chuckle that we're all pretty much on an assembly line...
>>>
>>> On Feb 1, 5:27 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Just to clarify my thought- that luck and timing can be good, bad or
>>> > indifferent. Also rather than active thinking being a debate, it is
>>> > more like selection. Literature and social sciences deal with layered
>>> > communication- for instance, withholding facts, feelings or motives.
>>> > It is often called discretion. :-) How do you mean "identity"?
>>>
>>> > On Jan 31, 11:09 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > The 'making sense of things later' seems true even in the split second
>>> > > in brain research. I regard all strategy as retrospectively devised!
>>> > > There's a book just out by Hill and Myatt (economists) on just how
>>> > > facile economics teaching is in universities - but this contains
>>> > > nothing on how this has happened. Some of this seems to me connected
>>> > > with a lack of movement beyond identity Molly.
>>>
>>> > > On Jan 31, 1:30 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > Part of human nature is to identify with people, thoughts, ideas
>>> > > > around us. Being able to witness your identification, and moving
>>> > > > beyond it is the real treasure.
>>>
>>> > > > On Jan 29, 9:10 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > Molly your question has my mind running around its dust bins. Most my
>>> > > > > thoughts are not original but more composites of other ideas. They are like
>>> > > > > hand me downs,, like the 3D image comes from watching how people search
>>> > > > > for treasure on sunken vessels, it is rags from a different ?idea?.
>>>
>>> > > > > My world is a world of rags in the form of other ideas.
>>> > > > > Allan
>>> > > > > On Jan 29, 2012 8:21 PM, "Allan H" <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > > Yeah it is kind of like an old dog sappen on his favorite bone.
>>>
>>> > > > > > it is trying to understand others, and what I have experienced As I have
>>> > > > > > very few friends that like discussing God I talk to myself a lot..which is
>>> > > > > > no problem as I am never really alone,.
>>> > > > > > Allan
>>>
>>> > > > > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > >> Not at all irrelevant. did you have more thoughts about this?
>>>
>>> > > > > >> On Jan 28, 10:19 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > > > > >> > Hi Mol&Rigs, listening to you two I've been asking myself why none of
>>> > > > > >> > you mentions Jung and his description of the collective unconscious. I
>>> > > > > >> > haven't read the Red Book yet, but maybe of of you has and could tell
>>> > > > > >> > me why this is irrelevant to what you are discussing.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > On Jan 27, 2:35 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > The paramount paradox.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > On Jan 27, 8:21 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > Yes- I've read a lot of Campbell and admire his efforts. In fact, I
>>> > > > > >> > > > was going to put the Oriental Mythology of his Masks of God series
>>> > > > > >> > > > aside to reread- Indian, Chinese and Japanese chapters. I wish I
>>> > > > > >> could
>>> > > > > >> > > > keep certain studies on top of my thinking but maybe I have read so
>>> > > > > >> > > > much there is a chute to forgetfulness or a pit of scrambled
>>> > > > > >> > > > ideas! :-) Oh, dear!
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > However, back to your comment about looking back/within. I consider
>>> > > > > >> > > > there is impossible split between the spiritual and material and yet
>>> > > > > >> > > > that is our struggle to bridge- if possible.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > On Jan 27, 6:32 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > Do myths disappear? Joseph Campbell mapped common human myth
>>> > > > > >> around
>>> > > > > >> > > > > the word and through time to discover a mechanism something close
>>> > > > > >> to
>>> > > > > >> > > > > common memory - the expression of the same archetypes in real
>>> > > > > >> time,
>>> > > > > >> > > > > isolated incidents around the globe and at the same time. This
>>> > > > > >> > > > > phenomena has occurred throughout human history. This may tell us
>>> > > > > >> > > > > that it is not the looking back that is important, but as Vam
>>> > > > > >> says,
>>> > > > > >> > > > > looking within.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > On Jan 26, 5:54 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > What is original? I might argue that one is simply explicating
>>> > > > > >> what
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > already exists.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > Each generation assumes it has a distinct character- or needs
>>> > > > > >> to prove
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > that it has.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > Was thinking the reason myths disappear is because they were
>>> > > > > >> oral and
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > native languages are usually suppressed by the conquerors. One
>>> > > > > >> also
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > carries family myths- which interfere with deep communication.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > Yes- there are terrible inequities- all the more scandalous
>>> > > > > >> because
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > there really is plenty to go around so the root is greed and
>>> > > > > >> distain
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > for others. Governments only pretend to care for all its
>>> > > > > >> citizens- it
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > picks and chooses.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > We passed the Gilded Age- I would call this the Tinsel Age.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > On Jan 25, 9:45 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > I would say, Vam, that you often jump in the water with an
>>> > > > > >> 'entourage'
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > of assumptive baggage. I probably dislike citation more than
>>> > > > > >> you and
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > am not the first. Veblen would be a good start (to use some
>>> > > > > >> rough
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > citation). These days, you can at least Google the name.
>>> > > > > >> When I
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > started it meant a trip to the library. Anyone who has the
>>> > > > > >> chance to
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > read a lot of what's available (this is still remarkably few)
>>> > > > > >> should
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > discover most of what they thought their own ideas have been
>>> > > > > >> done
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > before. The idea is no doubt to try to 'stand on the
>>> > > > > >> shoulders of
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > giants' (itself a wisecrack by Newton on Hooke's dwarfish
>>> > > > > >> stature).
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > The 'giants' always turn out flawed. Moses is a war criminal
>>> > > > > >> in
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > Numbers 31, the Greeks, for all their argument, never
>>> > > > > >> produced a
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > decent one against slavery (the lunatic-religious John Brown
>>> > > > > >> being
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > better). Many, because they don't read enough, attribute
>>> > > > > >> 'relativity'
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > to Einstein, but it has a longer and wider history. The
>>> > > > > >> chattering
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > class reinvents the square wheel all over the place.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > What if the best of our system is fascist and we have grown
>>> > > > > >> in such
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > culture, or a caste system? By what processes do we get an
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > understanding for change from such? Western propaganda would
>>> > > > > >> have us
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > believe pouring resources into the gullets of the rich is
>>> > > > > >> sensible.
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > We all live in the gutter. Only some of us lift our eyes to
>>> > > > > >> the
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > stars. If only I was smart enough to have been first to
>>> > > > > >> that! (Oscar
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > Wilde) A common jibe by academics is that common sense is
>>> > > > > >> that which
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > allows us to believe the world is flat - yet flat-earth was an
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > academic construction - one can actually see the curvature of
>>> > > > > >> the
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > Earth.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > What we need is reliable collective memory. Given our
>>> > > > > >> capacity to
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > pervert, citation is usually used in a highly selective
>>> > > > > >> manner,
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > usually along with a core academic (religious etc.) narrative
>>> > > > > >> of
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > exclusion of competing argument. Control of what is reliable
>>> > > > > >> memory
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > is, of course, just what those in power want to maintain -
>>> > > > > >> perhaps
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > through principles of Home and Vanity. I will always prefer
>>> > > > > >> the
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > margins to this, remembering that to oppose tyranny can
>>> > > > > >> pervert into
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > its support.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > Deconstruction is only a beginning. I believe its spirit
>>> > > > > >> concerns a
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > defeat of madness that includes rationalist fantasy and animal
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > consensus (which I sense as grasping, selfish individualism
>>> > > > > >> easy to
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > rule).
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > On Jan 25, 3:26 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > "Is this not an important part of the dynamic
>>> > > > > >> multidimensional mind
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > Vam, can you find nothing of value with meeting this view
>>> > > > > >> at least as
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > a challenge?"
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > James, starting with God is a bad idea. Perhaps, ending up
>>> > > > > >> at it is
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > what needs to happen. Dawkins was in Jaipur here and I
>>> > > > > >> found his view
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > a lot more balanced, less bigoted and militant.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > And Neil is right : it must deal with morality. Where his
>>> > > > > >> discourse
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > runs dry is when he is quoting other people ! That is also
>>> > > > > >> my
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> read more »

Re: Mind's Eye Re: Truth & I

2012-02-01T16:04:00.000-08:00

If you don't think your students pick up on a slight hesitation or
unconscious facial signal that a theory is bunk I think you are
selling yourself short Neil. We are in a rapidly changing world, but
some things haven't, conscience for example, you have the haves and
have-nots. I think there is compelling evidence that we could live
more fulfilling lives in the service to mankind, but when faced with
the decision to sink or float/soar many are doing what they think is
necessary even if it is rotting at the core of civilisation. We will
craft our beliefs of right and wrong to fit the world we know, mostly
I think. Identity and seeing oneself in the mirror helps but requires
more than a single image as we need comparisons, it would help to say
hey something else would work and people are doing it. A new labor
class perhaps, philosophically motivated?

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 6:40 PM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think we are always stuck in an irrational situation, generally the
> makings of others. Science makes some kind of clearing for
> rationality and inventiveness. Heidegger opined on clearings as being
> amongst the real things of the world rather than facing them in
> thought 'where the backs were missing, but that didn't help him see
> the Nazis for what they were. One can probably "curl up" by taking
> action - as a cop in a pub brawl or whatever our countries ask of us
> as soldiers, our societies of mothers and so on. I've found myself
> coping in action fully aware of its ludicrous nature and wondering if
> there is any freedom from it other than that given by adrenaline and
> the steel put in in training to do the noxious.
> There's a strange rationale that we somehow have to do what's right in
> what is already an irrational mess and act as though rational against
> some bigger picture that we are the good guys - a view unseated
> everywhere by realistic history. The question for me is whether we
> can do much with our knowledge in a world in which few will give up on
> the comfort of knowing very little.
>
> On Feb 1, 11:50 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Also- I think if we really knew the consequences of our acts and
>> choices we might just curl up into a ball and do nothing. One friend
>> and I chuckle that we're all pretty much on an assembly line...
>>
>> On Feb 1, 5:27 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Just to clarify my thought- that luck and timing can be good, bad or
>> > indifferent. Also rather than active thinking being a debate, it is
>> > more like selection. Literature and social sciences deal with layered
>> > communication- for instance, withholding facts, feelings or motives.
>> > It is often called discretion. :-) How do you mean "identity"?
>>
>> > On Jan 31, 11:09 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > The 'making sense of things later' seems true even in the split second
>> > > in brain research. I regard all strategy as retrospectively devised!
>> > > There's a book just out by Hill and Myatt (economists) on just how
>> > > facile economics teaching is in universities - but this contains
>> > > nothing on how this has happened. Some of this seems to me connected
>> > > with a lack of movement beyond identity Molly.
>>
>> > > On Jan 31, 1:30 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > > Part of human nature is to identify with people, thoughts, ideas
>> > > > around us. Being able to witness your identification, and moving
>> > > > beyond it is the real treasure.
>>
>> > > > On Jan 29, 9:10 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > > > Molly your question has my mind running around its dust bins. Most my
>> > > > > thoughts are not original but more composites of other ideas. They are like
>> > > > > hand me downs,, like the 3D image comes from watching how people search
>> > > > > for treasure on sunken vessels, it is rags from a different ?idea?.
>>
>> > > > > My world is a world of rags in the form of other ideas.
>> > > > > Allan
>> > > > > On Jan 29, 2012 8:21 PM, "Allan H" <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > > > > Yeah it is kind of like an old dog sappen on his favorite bone.
>>
>> > > > > > it is trying to understand others, and what I have experienced As I have
>> > > > > > very few friends that like discussing God I talk to myself a lot..which is
>> > > > > > no problem as I am never really alone,.
>> > > > > > Allan
>>
>> > > > > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > > > >> Not at all irrelevant. did you have more thoughts about this?
>>
>> > > > > >> On Jan 28, 10:19 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > > >> > Hi Mol&Rigs, listening to you two I've been asking myself why none of
>> > > > > >> > you mentions Jung and his description of the collective unconscious. I
>> > > > > >> > haven't read the Red Book yet, but maybe of of you has and could tell
>> > > > > >> > me why this is irrelevant to what you are discussing.
>>
>> > > > > >> > On Jan 27, 2:35 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > > > >> > > The paramount paradox.
>>
>> > > > > >> > > On Jan 27, 8:21 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > > > >> > > > Yes- I've read a lot of Campbell and admire his efforts. In fact, I
>> > > > > >> > > > was going to put the Oriental Mythology of his Masks of God series
>> > > > > >> > > > aside to reread- Indian, Chinese and Japanese chapters. I wish I
>> > > > > >> could
>> > > > > >> > > > keep certain studies on top of my thinking but maybe I have read so
>> > > > > >> > > > much there is a chute to forgetfulness or a pit of scrambled
>> > > > > >> > > > ideas! :-) Oh, dear!
>>
>> > > > > >> > > > However, back to your comment about looking back/within. I consider
>> > > > > >> > > > there is impossible split between the spiritual and material and yet
>> > > > > >> > > > that is our struggle to bridge- if possible.
>>
>> > > > > >> > > > On Jan 27, 6:32 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > > > >> > > > > Do myths disappear? Joseph Campbell mapped common human myth
>> > > > > >> around
>> > > > > >> > > > > the word and through time to discover a mechanism something close
>> > > > > >> to
>> > > > > >> > > > > common memory - the expression of the same archetypes in real
>> > > > > >> time,
>> > > > > >> > > > > isolated incidents around the globe and at the same time. This
>> > > > > >> > > > > phenomena has occurred throughout human history. This may tell us
>> > > > > >> > > > > that it is not the looking back that is important, but as Vam
>> > > > > >> says,
>> > > > > >> > > > > looking within.
>>
>> > > > > >> > > > > On Jan 26, 5:54 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > > > >> > > > > > What is original? I might argue that one is simply explicating
>> > > > > >> what
>> > > > > >> > > > > > already exists.
>>
>> > > > > >> > > > > > Each generation assumes it has a distinct character- or needs
>> > > > > >> to prove
>> > > > > >> > > > > > that it has.
>>
>> > > > > >> > > > > > Was thinking the reason myths disappear is because they were
>> > > > > >> oral and
>> > > > > >> > > > > > native languages are usually suppressed by the conquerors. One
>> > > > > >> also
>> > > > > >> > > > > > carries family myths- which interfere with deep communication.
>>
>> > > > > >> > > > > > Yes- there are terrible inequities- all the more scandalous
>> > > > > >> because
>> > > > > >> > > > > > there really is plenty to go around so the root is greed and
>> > > > > >> distain
>> > > > > >> > > > > > for others. Governments only pretend to care for all its
>> > > > > >> citizens- it
>> > > > > >> > > > > > picks and chooses.
>>
>> > > > > >> > > > > > We passed the Gilded Age- I would call this the Tinsel Age.
>>
>> > > > > >> > > > > > On Jan 25, 9:45 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > I would say, Vam, that you often jump in the water with an
>> > > > > >> 'entourage'
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > of assumptive baggage. I probably dislike citation more than
>> > > > > >> you and
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > am not the first. Veblen would be a good start (to use some
>> > > > > >> rough
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > citation). These days, you can at least Google the name.
>> > > > > >> When I
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > started it meant a trip to the library. Anyone who has the
>> > > > > >> chance to
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > read a lot of what's available (this is still remarkably few)
>> > > > > >> should
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > discover most of what they thought their own ideas have been
>> > > > > >> done
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > before. The idea is no doubt to try to 'stand on the
>> > > > > >> shoulders of
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > giants' (itself a wisecrack by Newton on Hooke's dwarfish
>> > > > > >> stature).
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > The 'giants' always turn out flawed. Moses is a war criminal
>> > > > > >> in
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > Numbers 31, the Greeks, for all their argument, never
>> > > > > >> produced a
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > decent one against slavery (the lunatic-religious John Brown
>> > > > > >> being
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > better). Many, because they don't read enough, attribute
>> > > > > >> 'relativity'
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > to Einstein, but it has a longer and wider history. The
>> > > > > >> chattering
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > class reinvents the square wheel all over the place.
>>
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > What if the best of our system is fascist and we have grown
>> > > > > >> in such
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > culture, or a caste system? By what processes do we get an
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > understanding for change from such? Western propaganda would
>> > > > > >> have us
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > believe pouring resources into the gullets of the rich is
>> > > > > >> sensible.
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > We all live in the gutter. Only some of us lift our eyes to
>> > > > > >> the
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > stars. If only I was smart enough to have been first to
>> > > > > >> that! (Oscar
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > Wilde) A common jibe by academics is that common sense is
>> > > > > >> that which
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > allows us to believe the world is flat - yet flat-earth was an
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > academic construction - one can actually see the curvature of
>> > > > > >> the
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > Earth.
>>
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > What we need is reliable collective memory. Given our
>> > > > > >> capacity to
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > pervert, citation is usually used in a highly selective
>> > > > > >> manner,
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > usually along with a core academic (religious etc.) narrative
>> > > > > >> of
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > exclusion of competing argument. Control of what is reliable
>> > > > > >> memory
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > is, of course, just what those in power want to maintain -
>> > > > > >> perhaps
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > through principles of Home and Vanity. I will always prefer
>> > > > > >> the
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > margins to this, remembering that to oppose tyranny can
>> > > > > >> pervert into
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > its support.
>>
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > Deconstruction is only a beginning. I believe its spirit
>> > > > > >> concerns a
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > defeat of madness that includes rationalist fantasy and animal
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > consensus (which I sense as grasping, selfish individualism
>> > > > > >> easy to
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > rule).
>>
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > On Jan 25, 3:26 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > "Is this not an important part of the dynamic
>> > > > > >> multidimensional mind
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > Vam, can you find nothing of value with meeting this view
>> > > > > >> at least as
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > a challenge?"
>>
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > James, starting with God is a bad idea. Perhaps, ending up
>> > > > > >> at it is
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > what needs to happen. Dawkins was in Jaipur here and I
>> > > > > >> found his view
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > a lot more balanced, less bigoted and militant.
>>
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > And Neil is right : it must deal with morality. Where his
>> > > > > >> discourse
>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > runs dry is when he is quoting other people ! That is also
>> > > > > >> my
>>
>> ...
>>
>> read more »

Re: Mind's Eye Re: Truth & I

2012-02-01T15:40:00.000-08:00

I think we are always stuck in an irrational situation, generally the
makings of others. Science makes some kind of clearing for
rationality and inventiveness. Heidegger opined on clearings as being
amongst the real things of the world rather than facing them in
thought 'where the backs were missing, but that didn't help him see
the Nazis for what they were. One can probably "curl up" by taking
action - as a cop in a pub brawl or whatever our countries ask of us
as soldiers, our societies of mothers and so on. I've found myself
coping in action fully aware of its ludicrous nature and wondering if
there is any freedom from it other than that given by adrenaline and
the steel put in in training to do the noxious.
There's a strange rationale that we somehow have to do what's right in
what is already an irrational mess and act as though rational against
some bigger picture that we are the good guys - a view unseated
everywhere by realistic history. The question for me is whether we
can do much with our knowledge in a world in which few will give up on
the comfort of knowing very little.

On Feb 1, 11:50 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Also- I think if we really knew the consequences of our acts and
> choices we might just curl up into a ball and do nothing. One friend
> and I chuckle that we're all pretty much on an assembly line...
>
> On Feb 1, 5:27 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Just to clarify my thought- that luck and timing can be good, bad or
> > indifferent. Also rather than active thinking being a debate, it is
> > more like selection. Literature and social sciences deal with layered
> > communication- for instance, withholding facts, feelings or motives.
> > It is often called discretion. :-) How do you mean "identity"?
>
> > On Jan 31, 11:09 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > The 'making sense of things later' seems true even in the split second
> > > in brain research. I regard all strategy as retrospectively devised!
> > > There's a book just out by Hill and Myatt (economists) on just how
> > > facile economics teaching is in universities - but this contains
> > > nothing on how this has happened. Some of this seems to me connected
> > > with a lack of movement beyond identity Molly.
>
> > > On Jan 31, 1:30 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Part of human nature is to identify with people, thoughts, ideas
> > > > around us. Being able to witness your identification, and moving
> > > > beyond it is the real treasure.
>
> > > > On Jan 29, 9:10 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Molly your question has my mind running around its dust bins. Most my
> > > > > thoughts are not original but more composites of other ideas. They are like
> > > > > hand me downs,, like the 3D image comes from watching how people search
> > > > > for treasure on sunken vessels, it is rags from a different ?idea?.
>
> > > > > My world is a world of rags in the form of other ideas.
> > > > > Allan
> > > > > On Jan 29, 2012 8:21 PM, "Allan H" <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Yeah it is kind of like an old dog sappen on his favorite bone.
>
> > > > > > it is trying to understand others, and what I have experienced As I have
> > > > > > very few friends that like discussing God I talk to myself a lot..which is
> > > > > > no problem as I am never really alone,.
> > > > > > Allan
>
> > > > > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > >> Not at all irrelevant. did you have more thoughts about this?
>
> > > > > >> On Jan 28, 10:19 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >> > Hi Mol&Rigs, listening to you two I've been asking myself why none of
> > > > > >> > you mentions Jung and his description of the collective unconscious. I
> > > > > >> > haven't read the Red Book yet, but maybe of of you has and could tell
> > > > > >> > me why this is irrelevant to what you are discussing.
>
> > > > > >> > On Jan 27, 2:35 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > >> > > The paramount paradox.
>
> > > > > >> > > On Jan 27, 8:21 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > >> > > > Yes- I've read a lot of Campbell and admire his efforts. In fact, I
> > > > > >> > > > was going to put the Oriental Mythology of his Masks of God series
> > > > > >> > > > aside to reread- Indian, Chinese and Japanese chapters. I wish I
> > > > > >> could
> > > > > >> > > > keep certain studies on top of my thinking but maybe I have read so
> > > > > >> > > > much there is a chute to forgetfulness or a pit of scrambled
> > > > > >> > > > ideas! :-) Oh, dear!
>
> > > > > >> > > > However, back to your comment about looking back/within. I consider
> > > > > >> > > > there is impossible split between the spiritual and material and yet
> > > > > >> > > > that is our struggle to bridge- if possible.
>
> > > > > >> > > > On Jan 27, 6:32 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > >> > > > > Do myths disappear? Joseph Campbell mapped common human myth
> > > > > >> around
> > > > > >> > > > > the word and through time to discover a mechanism something close
> > > > > >> to
> > > > > >> > > > > common memory - the expression of the same archetypes in real
> > > > > >> time,
> > > > > >> > > > > isolated incidents around the globe and at the same time. This
> > > > > >> > > > > phenomena has occurred throughout human history. This may tell us
> > > > > >> > > > > that it is not the looking back that is important, but as Vam
> > > > > >> says,
> > > > > >> > > > > looking within.
>
> > > > > >> > > > > On Jan 26, 5:54 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > >> > > > > > What is original? I might argue that one is simply explicating
> > > > > >> what
> > > > > >> > > > > > already exists.
>
> > > > > >> > > > > > Each generation assumes it has a distinct character- or needs
> > > > > >> to prove
> > > > > >> > > > > > that it has.
>
> > > > > >> > > > > > Was thinking the reason myths disappear is because they were
> > > > > >> oral and
> > > > > >> > > > > > native languages are usually suppressed by the conquerors. One
> > > > > >> also
> > > > > >> > > > > > carries family myths- which interfere with deep communication.
>
> > > > > >> > > > > > Yes- there are terrible inequities- all the more scandalous
> > > > > >> because
> > > > > >> > > > > > there really is plenty to go around so the root is greed and
> > > > > >> distain
> > > > > >> > > > > > for others. Governments only pretend to care for all its
> > > > > >> citizens- it
> > > > > >> > > > > > picks and chooses.
>
> > > > > >> > > > > > We passed the Gilded Age- I would call this the Tinsel Age.
>
> > > > > >> > > > > > On Jan 25, 9:45 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > >> > > > > > > I would say, Vam, that you often jump in the water with an
> > > > > >> 'entourage'
> > > > > >> > > > > > > of assumptive baggage. I probably dislike citation more than
> > > > > >> you and
> > > > > >> > > > > > > am not the first. Veblen would be a good start (to use some
> > > > > >> rough
> > > > > >> > > > > > > citation). These days, you can at least Google the name.
> > > > > >> When I
> > > > > >> > > > > > > started it meant a trip to the library. Anyone who has the
> > > > > >> chance to
> > > > > >> > > > > > > read a lot of what's available (this is still remarkably few)
> > > > > >> should
> > > > > >> > > > > > > discover most of what they thought their own ideas have been
> > > > > >> done
> > > > > >> > > > > > > before. The idea is no doubt to try to 'stand on the
> > > > > >> shoulders of
> > > > > >> > > > > > > giants' (itself a wisecrack by Newton on Hooke's dwarfish
> > > > > >> stature).
> > > > > >> > > > > > > The 'giants' always turn out flawed. Moses is a war criminal
> > > > > >> in
> > > > > >> > > > > > > Numbers 31, the Greeks, for all their argument, never
> > > > > >> produced a
> > > > > >> > > > > > > decent one against slavery (the lunatic-religious John Brown
> > > > > >> being
> > > > > >> > > > > > > better). Many, because they don't read enough, attribute
> > > > > >> 'relativity'
> > > > > >> > > > > > > to Einstein, but it has a longer and wider history. The
> > > > > >> chattering
> > > > > >> > > > > > > class reinvents the square wheel all over the place.
>
> > > > > >> > > > > > > What if the best of our system is fascist and we have grown
> > > > > >> in such
> > > > > >> > > > > > > culture, or a caste system? By what processes do we get an
> > > > > >> > > > > > > understanding for change from such? Western propaganda would
> > > > > >> have us
> > > > > >> > > > > > > believe pouring resources into the gullets of the rich is
> > > > > >> sensible.
> > > > > >> > > > > > > We all live in the gutter. Only some of us lift our eyes to
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > > > > > stars. If only I was smart enough to have been first to
> > > > > >> that! (Oscar
> > > > > >> > > > > > > Wilde) A common jibe by academics is that common sense is
> > > > > >> that which
> > > > > >> > > > > > > allows us to believe the world is flat - yet flat-earth was an
> > > > > >> > > > > > > academic construction - one can actually see the curvature of
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > > > > > Earth.
>
> > > > > >> > > > > > > What we need is reliable collective memory. Given our
> > > > > >> capacity to
> > > > > >> > > > > > > pervert, citation is usually used in a highly selective
> > > > > >> manner,
> > > > > >> > > > > > > usually along with a core academic (religious etc.) narrative
> > > > > >> of
> > > > > >> > > > > > > exclusion of competing argument. Control of what is reliable
> > > > > >> memory
> > > > > >> > > > > > > is, of course, just what those in power want to maintain -
> > > > > >> perhaps
> > > > > >> > > > > > > through principles of Home and Vanity. I will always prefer
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > > > > > margins to this, remembering that to oppose tyranny can
> > > > > >> pervert into
> > > > > >> > > > > > > its support.
>
> > > > > >> > > > > > > Deconstruction is only a beginning. I believe its spirit
> > > > > >> concerns a
> > > > > >> > > > > > > defeat of madness that includes rationalist fantasy and animal
> > > > > >> > > > > > > consensus (which I sense as grasping, selfish individualism
> > > > > >> easy to
> > > > > >> > > > > > > rule).
>
> > > > > >> > > > > > > On Jan 25, 3:26 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > >> > > > > > > > "Is this not an important part of the dynamic
> > > > > >> multidimensional mind
> > > > > >> > > > > > > > Vam, can you find nothing of value with meeting this view
> > > > > >> at least as
> > > > > >> > > > > > > > a challenge?"
>
> > > > > >> > > > > > > > James, starting with God is a bad idea. Perhaps, ending up
> > > > > >> at it is
> > > > > >> > > > > > > > what needs to happen. Dawkins was in Jaipur here and I
> > > > > >> found his view
> > > > > >> > > > > > > > a lot more balanced, less bigoted and militant.
>
> > > > > >> > > > > > > > And Neil is right : it must deal with morality. Where his
> > > > > >> discourse
> > > > > >> > > > > > > > runs dry is when he is quoting other people ! That is also
> > > > > >> my
>
> ...
>
> read more »

Re: Mind's Eye Facebook IPO rip-off?

2012-02-01T13:31:00.001-08:00

There is, of course, no sensible reason to invest in FB or any of
dotcon 2 - http://www.zerohedge.com/news/facebook-ipo-because-time-its-different

On Feb 1, 1:58 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 'Free lance' once meant exactly that - a term from the 100 Years War
> (which was mostly about British mercenaries screwing Europe). I have
> a Facebook account but find the 'place' boring - I don't do that kind
> of stuff for real and have no interest in the virtual form. Don't
> quite see you on a charger spearing peasants rigs! I'm quite sure the
> Internet generally is mostly a waste of space and has a potential we
> are barely grasping at all. Facebook looks like leading 'dotcon 2'.
>
> On Feb 1, 11:36 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Most women I know consider the founder creepy and haven't signed on-
> > one, an artist, advised to get "out there" to boost sales and name
> > recognition. Someone has been trying to get me on a business social
> > group but I haven't taken it up since they decided I was a "free
> > lance"- whatever that is!
>
> > On Feb 1, 12:46 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > the only reason I use face book now is because my daughter is ther and it
> > > is how I keep track of what is happening in her life..
> > > I like the new EU laws that require these massive companies to turn over
> > > all information they have on you on request.. and also have to delete all
> > > information also on request.. will glad when they take effect..
> > > The companies don't like the fines involved if they don't comply.
> > > Allan
>
> > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 12:50 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > The selling point of Facebook is supposedly the "lock-in" it has one
> > > > you as a customer because your friends are there. I can't really be
> > > > bothered with it because so many people I don't want to know are
> > > > there! And all the spam and dire else that comes with the Internet.
> > > > I do shop online, but that's largely because I don't like shops and
> > > > shopping - plus some stuff is much cheaper than my 'local' chain-
> > > > store.
>
> > > > What I'd like to be able to do is buy in advance direct from
> > > > manufacturers in an environment of peer review on quality and
> > > > service. One can easily imagine a kind of auction service for such in
> > > > which I put up what I want and manufacturers and service suppliers
> > > > could bid to fulfill my needs and that of my agreed collective. I'd
> > > > want fellow members to be able to control and advertising and for a
> > > > collective representation if things go wrong.
>
> > > > The technology to run Facebook is hardly a barrier to entry. My idea
> > > > would be to undercut retailing through a new logistic model that would
> > > > not involve the collective auction becoming a retailer or holding
> > > > stock. One example is Green Metropolis which just takes a fee on
> > > > books held by members and sold through its site.
>
> > > > I think a lot of fingers will get burned over Facebook. I wonder if
> > > > there is an alternative that would not be concerned with retailing and
> > > > all its gimmicks? I've never responded to a Google ad so far and
> > > > suspect there must be a better way to source essentials.
>
> > > --
> > > (
> > > )
> > > |_D Allan
>
> > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -

Re: Mind's Eye What really lies in simple moral positions?

2012-02-01T12:54:00.001-08:00

I had a sense of doing what seemed right as a cop Allan - even though
most situations were difficult to see a right side in. The academy
stinks as in the State of Denmark and I get to feel the only thing is
to retreat to the margins. My working guess is that it's
"meritocracy" that sucks.

On Feb 1, 8:30 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> not being obnoxious, The that comes to my mind is just what is your
> understanding of morality and how it is applied in ones life.
> Understanding morality on a personal level can be quite difficult,
> especially if you want it to make sense.
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 7:39 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I hope to spend the next 5 years "not teaching" - a difficult
> > financial decision as this is my 'ready-to-hand' income. Some years
> > back I tried to take and stick to a decision not to teach 'ideological
> > rot' - broadly the mainstream of business and economic subjects. This
> > might seem a fairly easy personal, moral decision; yet it isn't.
>
> > The interesting issues don't concern the easy morality of doing what's
> > right. One can find plenty of material, from Critical Theory through
> > to deconstructive approaches to behaviour and critical psychology -
> > and once, very critical management books like Peter Anthony's
> > 'Foundation of Management' and sort programmes out on the basis of
> > these. Thus one could teach material one might feel credible and
> > stretching, broadly aimed at students learning critical reasoning. I
> > do offer modules based around writers like David Graeber, Steve Keen
> > and modern blogs at the moment.
>
> > What muddies the waters is a combination of streamlining costs in HE
> > and more or less the extirpation of syllabus control by academics,
> > along with a massive dilution of student brain-power and the
> > connection of student success with the numbers we pass. This
> > situation makes moral judgement very difficult and academe has
> > collapsed altogether as a moral place.
>
> > Economics has long been taught as a science - an utter farce - and
> > management theories are only fit for ridicule (excellence, kwality and
> > anything with 'strategic' in it). The world works around power and
> > rhetoric, and this is the only real content of such "theories".
>
> > The madness that underlies all this is that we never address what the
> > real issues might be. Accumulated wealth is clearly a problem for
> > democracy as it inevitably means some will benefit by doing nothing
> > while others work and that the wealth will be used to influence
> > politics and the very ground of commercial competition. Yet with no
> > consideration of this we leap into "theorising" in a system that
> > applauds the creation of excess wealth in few hands as a 'good'.
>
> > One can try to teach what one believes is true and in simple morality
> > this is what one ought to do. The actual situation is much more
> > complex. The jobs available in teaching (apart from a few little
> > eddies I have occupied) are nearly all to do with teaching the rot,
> > because this is the cheapest way universities can devise. The moral
> > choice of not teaching rot changes to a choice not to teach (and get
> > paid) - partly because your own students will be examined on the rot
> > because you are teaching as part of a 'team' and all students are set
> > the same questions as part of standardisation. If you don't teach the
> > muck you put your students at a disadvantage.
>
> > I see no answers to the moral conundrum - other than just to walk
> > away, putting distance between oneself and the madness.
>
> --
> (
> )
> |_D Allan
>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Re: Mind's Eye What really lies in simple moral positions?

2012-02-01T12:30:00.000-08:00

not being obnoxious, The that comes to my mind is just what is your understanding of morality and how it is applied in ones life. Understanding morality on a personal level can be quite difficult, especially if you want it to make sense.

Allan

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 7:39 PM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:

I hope to spend the next 5 years "not teaching" - a difficult
financial decision as this is my 'ready-to-hand' income. Some years
back I tried to take and stick to a decision not to teach 'ideological
rot' - broadly the mainstream of business and economic subjects. This
might seem a fairly easy personal, moral decision; yet it isn't.

The interesting issues don't concern the easy morality of doing what's
right. One can find plenty of material, from Critical Theory through
to deconstructive approaches to behaviour and critical psychology -
and once, very critical management books like Peter Anthony's
'Foundation of Management' and sort programmes out on the basis of
these. Thus one could teach material one might feel credible and
stretching, broadly aimed at students learning critical reasoning. I
do offer modules based around writers like David Graeber, Steve Keen
and modern blogs at the moment.

What muddies the waters is a combination of streamlining costs in HE
and more or less the extirpation of syllabus control by academics,
along with a massive dilution of student brain-power and the
connection of student success with the numbers we pass. This
situation makes moral judgement very difficult and academe has
collapsed altogether as a moral place.

Economics has long been taught as a science - an utter farce - and
management theories are only fit for ridicule (excellence, kwality and
anything with 'strategic' in it). The world works around power and
rhetoric, and this is the only real content of such "theories".

The madness that underlies all this is that we never address what the
real issues might be. Accumulated wealth is clearly a problem for
democracy as it inevitably means some will benefit by doing nothing
while others work and that the wealth will be used to influence
politics and the very ground of commercial competition. Yet with no
consideration of this we leap into "theorising" in a system that
applauds the creation of excess wealth in few hands as a 'good'.

One can try to teach what one believes is true and in simple morality
this is what one ought to do. The actual situation is much more
complex. The jobs available in teaching (apart from a few little
eddies I have occupied) are nearly all to do with teaching the rot,
because this is the cheapest way universities can devise. The moral
choice of not teaching rot changes to a choice not to teach (and get
paid) - partly because your own students will be examined on the rot
because you are teaching as part of a 'team' and all students are set
the same questions as part of standardisation. If you don't teach the
muck you put your students at a disadvantage.

I see no answers to the moral conundrum - other than just to walk
away, putting distance between oneself and the madness.

--
(

)

|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Mind's Eye What really lies in simple moral positions?

2012-02-01T10:39:00.001-08:00

I hope to spend the next 5 years "not teaching" - a difficult
financial decision as this is my 'ready-to-hand' income. Some years
back I tried to take and stick to a decision not to teach 'ideological
rot' - broadly the mainstream of business and economic subjects. This
might seem a fairly easy personal, moral decision; yet it isn't.

The interesting issues don't concern the easy morality of doing what's
right. One can find plenty of material, from Critical Theory through
to deconstructive approaches to behaviour and critical psychology -
and once, very critical management books like Peter Anthony's
'Foundation of Management' and sort programmes out on the basis of
these. Thus one could teach material one might feel credible and
stretching, broadly aimed at students learning critical reasoning. I
do offer modules based around writers like David Graeber, Steve Keen
and modern blogs at the moment.

What muddies the waters is a combination of streamlining costs in HE
and more or less the extirpation of syllabus control by academics,
along with a massive dilution of student brain-power and the
connection of student success with the numbers we pass. This
situation makes moral judgement very difficult and academe has
collapsed altogether as a moral place.

Economics has long been taught as a science - an utter farce - and
management theories are only fit for ridicule (excellence, kwality and
anything with 'strategic' in it). The world works around power and
rhetoric, and this is the only real content of such "theories".

The madness that underlies all this is that we never address what the
real issues might be. Accumulated wealth is clearly a problem for
democracy as it inevitably means some will benefit by doing nothing
while others work and that the wealth will be used to influence
politics and the very ground of commercial competition. Yet with no
consideration of this we leap into "theorising" in a system that
applauds the creation of excess wealth in few hands as a 'good'.

One can try to teach what one believes is true and in simple morality
this is what one ought to do. The actual situation is much more
complex. The jobs available in teaching (apart from a few little
eddies I have occupied) are nearly all to do with teaching the rot,
because this is the cheapest way universities can devise. The moral
choice of not teaching rot changes to a choice not to teach (and get
paid) - partly because your own students will be examined on the rot
because you are teaching as part of a 'team' and all students are set
the same questions as part of standardisation. If you don't teach the
muck you put your students at a disadvantage.

I see no answers to the moral conundrum - other than just to walk
away, putting distance between oneself and the madness.

Mind's Eye Re: Having a larf? Is humour cruel?

2012-02-01T08:07:00.000-08:00

I have to say most material billed as humour or comedy just isn't.
The phrases Hollywood Comedy. Romcom and the rest should be replaced
by 'boring rot'. British farces with Brian Rix were haplessly
unfunny. Laurence and Hardy were funny. Jacques Tati wasn't.
Personal choices, but I'm sure there's a theme. The French film
'Mario et Jeanette' is gloriously funny. Watch Tinker, Tailor,
Soldier Spy last night, Sue collapsed laughing - it was so dire it was
funny - until I realised we'd paid £5 to see it in HD! {miserly Scot
joke]
In Greek theatre, tragedies didn't have happy endings, as opposed to
comedies. I was sickened once in a Sheffield theatre because the
awful middle class audience was laughing at working class stereotypes
(now we have Shameless) and in a Watford club watching the working
class laugh with Jim Davidson. South Park is funny, the Simpsons was,
Family Guy and American Dad can be but go gross too often instead.
Monkey Dust was a riot. All good sociology - though most students
under 30 don't get why. Teaching economics is a tragedy and farce at
the same time - my lectures end up as shaggy dog stories. Years ago I
found a guide to passing police exams written by a civil servant that
was both funny and a great help. His claim was you could pass with no
practical knowledge at all and a set of key phrases like 'a police
officer in uniform (2 points) may (1 point) arrest (1 point)' and
similar. That year my LL.B exam contained the question 'W shoot his
wife and claims he thought she was a clay pigeon. Comment on his
legal liability'. Such humour seems to have deserted us. Now we have
"competence based" exams which test one's ability to regurgitate words
on key answer cards. Mother in law jokes get you sacked.

On Feb 1, 2:42 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My child hood was littered with jokes. How do you keep an Irishman
> busy all day - put him in a barrel and tell him to micturate in the
> corner. The Germans bombed our chip shop and had no sense of humour.
> In France, the Belgians are the butt or "Irish" jokes; elsewhere the
> Poles. Jokes often rely on 'taking the Micky' - ridiculing someone
> else. In Englishmen, Scotsmen and Irishmen jokes it was common for
> the English and Scots to be the suckers to a sharp and cunning
> Irishman. Even the holocaust has been subject to joking - often by
> the victims.
>
> I have taught Kierkegaard as an example of dark, lengthy Danish humour
> (and can point to books on same). There is an affinity in his work
> with the Monty Python poverty joke in which each in turn recalls a
> childhoods in greater poverty than the last. Eventually, just as one
> thinks the guy claiming to have lived in a shoebox on the central
> reservation of the M6 has 'won' the game another bloke says,
> "Shoebox? You had a shoebox. Luxury!" Kierkegaard does this with
> Christianity.
>
> My own humour is dark, but it's rare I mean anyone harm. I used to
> think that satire offered some hope of change, but in recent years
> have come to see it as merely part of the problems we have. It is of
> the Establishment and feigns resistance.
>
> I think humour might be part of a way out of chronic illusion; but it
> is often merely cruel and parochial.

Mind's Eye Having a larf? Is humour cruel?

2012-02-01T06:42:00.001-08:00

My child hood was littered with jokes. How do you keep an Irishman
busy all day - put him in a barrel and tell him to micturate in the
corner. The Germans bombed our chip shop and had no sense of humour.
In France, the Belgians are the butt or "Irish" jokes; elsewhere the
Poles. Jokes often rely on 'taking the Micky' - ridiculing someone
else. In Englishmen, Scotsmen and Irishmen jokes it was common for
the English and Scots to be the suckers to a sharp and cunning
Irishman. Even the holocaust has been subject to joking - often by
the victims.

I have taught Kierkegaard as an example of dark, lengthy Danish humour
(and can point to books on same). There is an affinity in his work
with the Monty Python poverty joke in which each in turn recalls a
childhoods in greater poverty than the last. Eventually, just as one
thinks the guy claiming to have lived in a shoebox on the central
reservation of the M6 has 'won' the game another bloke says,
"Shoebox? You had a shoebox. Luxury!" Kierkegaard does this with
Christianity.

My own humour is dark, but it's rare I mean anyone harm. I used to
think that satire offered some hope of change, but in recent years
have come to see it as merely part of the problems we have. It is of
the Establishment and feigns resistance.

I think humour might be part of a way out of chronic illusion; but it
is often merely cruel and parochial.

Re: Mind's Eye Re: Museums

2012-02-01T06:24:00.000-08:00

One of the museum in Leiden did return all of its artifacts.. the one you see there now are actually gifts from Egypt.

The relationship between the Museums here in the Netherlands have excellent relationships between them and the archaeological departments of foreign government resulting in some fantastic displays

Allan

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 2:49 PM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:

I'd like to see deeper changes than just handing the stuff back. Our
museums and public 'celebrations' all retain aspects of war and
sexism. What I'd like to see is hard to say as I find the places
boring. Some of the amazing ancient geometry is actually found in
molecules.

On Feb 1, 12:00 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I get upset with these illustrations of Indian and Asian myths since
> most artifacts are in foreign museums- mostly British. I feel like I
> am walking though a pawn shop or culture heist. And I do not buy the
> argument that the West is keeping these artifacts "safe". What do you
> think?
>
> I am lost in Hindu myths- I would need four brains- like Vishnu's four
> arms!

--
(

)

|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Re: Mind's Eye Facebook IPO rip-off?

2012-02-01T05:58:00.001-08:00

'Free lance' once meant exactly that - a term from the 100 Years War
(which was mostly about British mercenaries screwing Europe). I have
a Facebook account but find the 'place' boring - I don't do that kind
of stuff for real and have no interest in the virtual form. Don't
quite see you on a charger spearing peasants rigs! I'm quite sure the
Internet generally is mostly a waste of space and has a potential we
are barely grasping at all. Facebook looks like leading 'dotcon 2'.

On Feb 1, 11:36 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Most women I know consider the founder creepy and haven't signed on-
> one, an artist, advised to get "out there" to boost sales and name
> recognition. Someone has been trying to get me on a business social
> group but I haven't taken it up since they decided I was a "free
> lance"- whatever that is!
>
> On Feb 1, 12:46 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > the only reason I use face book now is because my daughter is ther and it
> > is how I keep track of what is happening in her life..
> > I like the new EU laws that require these massive companies to turn over
> > all information they have on you on request.. and also have to delete all
> > information also on request.. will glad when they take effect..
> > The companies don't like the fines involved if they don't comply.
> > Allan
>
> > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 12:50 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > The selling point of Facebook is supposedly the "lock-in" it has one
> > > you as a customer because your friends are there. I can't really be
> > > bothered with it because so many people I don't want to know are
> > > there! And all the spam and dire else that comes with the Internet.
> > > I do shop online, but that's largely because I don't like shops and
> > > shopping - plus some stuff is much cheaper than my 'local' chain-
> > > store.
>
> > > What I'd like to be able to do is buy in advance direct from
> > > manufacturers in an environment of peer review on quality and
> > > service. One can easily imagine a kind of auction service for such in
> > > which I put up what I want and manufacturers and service suppliers
> > > could bid to fulfill my needs and that of my agreed collective. I'd
> > > want fellow members to be able to control and advertising and for a
> > > collective representation if things go wrong.
>
> > > The technology to run Facebook is hardly a barrier to entry. My idea
> > > would be to undercut retailing through a new logistic model that would
> > > not involve the collective auction becoming a retailer or holding
> > > stock. One example is Green Metropolis which just takes a fee on
> > > books held by members and sold through its site.
>
> > > I think a lot of fingers will get burned over Facebook. I wonder if
> > > there is an alternative that would not be concerned with retailing and
> > > all its gimmicks? I've never responded to a Google ad so far and
> > > suspect there must be a better way to source essentials.
>
> > --
> > (
> > )
> > |_D Allan
>
> > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -

Mind's Eye Re: Museums

2012-02-01T05:49:00.001-08:00

I'd like to see deeper changes than just handing the stuff back. Our
museums and public 'celebrations' all retain aspects of war and
sexism. What I'd like to see is hard to say as I find the places
boring. Some of the amazing ancient geometry is actually found in
molecules.

On Feb 1, 12:00 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I get upset with these illustrations of Indian and Asian myths since
> most artifacts are in foreign museums- mostly British. I feel like I
> am walking though a pawn shop or culture heist. And I do not buy the
> argument that the West is keeping these artifacts "safe". What do you
> think?
>
> I am lost in Hindu myths- I would need four brains- like Vishnu's four
> arms!

Mind's Eye Museums

2012-02-01T04:00:00.001-08:00

I get upset with these illustrations of Indian and Asian myths since
most artifacts are in foreign museums- mostly British. I feel like I
am walking though a pawn shop or culture heist. And I do not buy the
argument that the West is keeping these artifacts "safe". What do you
think?

I am lost in Hindu myths- I would need four brains- like Vishnu's four
arms!

Re: Mind's Eye Re: Truth & I

2012-02-01T03:50:00.001-08:00

Also- I think if we really knew the consequences of our acts and
choices we might just curl up into a ball and do nothing. One friend
and I chuckle that we're all pretty much on an assembly line...

On Feb 1, 5:27 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Just to clarify my thought- that luck and timing can be good, bad or
> indifferent. Also rather than active thinking being a debate, it is
> more like selection. Literature and social sciences deal with layered
> communication- for instance, withholding facts, feelings or motives.
> It is often called discretion. :-) How do you mean "identity"?
>
> On Jan 31, 11:09 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > The 'making sense of things later' seems true even in the split second
> > in brain research. I regard all strategy as retrospectively devised!
> > There's a book just out by Hill and Myatt (economists) on just how
> > facile economics teaching is in universities - but this contains
> > nothing on how this has happened. Some of this seems to me connected
> > with a lack of movement beyond identity Molly.
>
> > On Jan 31, 1:30 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Part of human nature is to identify with people, thoughts, ideas
> > > around us. Being able to witness your identification, and moving
> > > beyond it is the real treasure.
>
> > > On Jan 29, 9:10 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Molly your question has my mind running around its dust bins. Most my
> > > > thoughts are not original but more composites of other ideas. They are like
> > > > hand me downs,, like the 3D image comes from watching how people search
> > > > for treasure on sunken vessels, it is rags from a different ?idea?.
>
> > > > My world is a world of rags in the form of other ideas.
> > > > Allan
> > > > On Jan 29, 2012 8:21 PM, "Allan H" <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Yeah it is kind of like an old dog sappen on his favorite bone.
>
> > > > > it is trying to understand others, and what I have experienced As I have
> > > > > very few friends that like discussing God I talk to myself a lot..which is
> > > > > no problem as I am never really alone,.
> > > > > Allan
>
> > > > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> Not at all irrelevant. did you have more thoughts about this?
>
> > > > >> On Jan 28, 10:19 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> > Hi Mol&Rigs, listening to you two I've been asking myself why none of
> > > > >> > you mentions Jung and his description of the collective unconscious. I
> > > > >> > haven't read the Red Book yet, but maybe of of you has and could tell
> > > > >> > me why this is irrelevant to what you are discussing.
>
> > > > >> > On Jan 27, 2:35 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > > The paramount paradox.
>
> > > > >> > > On Jan 27, 8:21 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > > > Yes- I've read a lot of Campbell and admire his efforts. In fact, I
> > > > >> > > > was going to put the Oriental Mythology of his Masks of God series
> > > > >> > > > aside to reread- Indian, Chinese and Japanese chapters. I wish I
> > > > >> could
> > > > >> > > > keep certain studies on top of my thinking but maybe I have read so
> > > > >> > > > much there is a chute to forgetfulness or a pit of scrambled
> > > > >> > > > ideas! :-) Oh, dear!
>
> > > > >> > > > However, back to your comment about looking back/within. I consider
> > > > >> > > > there is impossible split between the spiritual and material and yet
> > > > >> > > > that is our struggle to bridge- if possible.
>
> > > > >> > > > On Jan 27, 6:32 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > > > > Do myths disappear? Joseph Campbell mapped common human myth
> > > > >> around
> > > > >> > > > > the word and through time to discover a mechanism something close
> > > > >> to
> > > > >> > > > > common memory - the expression of the same archetypes in real
> > > > >> time,
> > > > >> > > > > isolated incidents around the globe and at the same time. This
> > > > >> > > > > phenomena has occurred throughout human history. This may tell us
> > > > >> > > > > that it is not the looking back that is important, but as Vam
> > > > >> says,
> > > > >> > > > > looking within.
>
> > > > >> > > > > On Jan 26, 5:54 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > > > > > What is original? I might argue that one is simply explicating
> > > > >> what
> > > > >> > > > > > already exists.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > Each generation assumes it has a distinct character- or needs
> > > > >> to prove
> > > > >> > > > > > that it has.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > Was thinking the reason myths disappear is because they were
> > > > >> oral and
> > > > >> > > > > > native languages are usually suppressed by the conquerors. One
> > > > >> also
> > > > >> > > > > > carries family myths- which interfere with deep communication.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > Yes- there are terrible inequities- all the more scandalous
> > > > >> because
> > > > >> > > > > > there really is plenty to go around so the root is greed and
> > > > >> distain
> > > > >> > > > > > for others. Governments only pretend to care for all its
> > > > >> citizens- it
> > > > >> > > > > > picks and chooses.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > We passed the Gilded Age- I would call this the Tinsel Age.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > On Jan 25, 9:45 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > I would say, Vam, that you often jump in the water with an
> > > > >> 'entourage'
> > > > >> > > > > > > of assumptive baggage. I probably dislike citation more than
> > > > >> you and
> > > > >> > > > > > > am not the first. Veblen would be a good start (to use some
> > > > >> rough
> > > > >> > > > > > > citation). These days, you can at least Google the name.
> > > > >> When I
> > > > >> > > > > > > started it meant a trip to the library. Anyone who has the
> > > > >> chance to
> > > > >> > > > > > > read a lot of what's available (this is still remarkably few)
> > > > >> should
> > > > >> > > > > > > discover most of what they thought their own ideas have been
> > > > >> done
> > > > >> > > > > > > before. The idea is no doubt to try to 'stand on the
> > > > >> shoulders of
> > > > >> > > > > > > giants' (itself a wisecrack by Newton on Hooke's dwarfish
> > > > >> stature).
> > > > >> > > > > > > The 'giants' always turn out flawed. Moses is a war criminal
> > > > >> in
> > > > >> > > > > > > Numbers 31, the Greeks, for all their argument, never
> > > > >> produced a
> > > > >> > > > > > > decent one against slavery (the lunatic-religious John Brown
> > > > >> being
> > > > >> > > > > > > better). Many, because they don't read enough, attribute
> > > > >> 'relativity'
> > > > >> > > > > > > to Einstein, but it has a longer and wider history. The
> > > > >> chattering
> > > > >> > > > > > > class reinvents the square wheel all over the place.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > What if the best of our system is fascist and we have grown
> > > > >> in such
> > > > >> > > > > > > culture, or a caste system? By what processes do we get an
> > > > >> > > > > > > understanding for change from such? Western propaganda would
> > > > >> have us
> > > > >> > > > > > > believe pouring resources into the gullets of the rich is
> > > > >> sensible.
> > > > >> > > > > > > We all live in the gutter. Only some of us lift our eyes to
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > > > > > stars. If only I was smart enough to have been first to
> > > > >> that! (Oscar
> > > > >> > > > > > > Wilde) A common jibe by academics is that common sense is
> > > > >> that which
> > > > >> > > > > > > allows us to believe the world is flat - yet flat-earth was an
> > > > >> > > > > > > academic construction - one can actually see the curvature of
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > > > > > Earth.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > What we need is reliable collective memory. Given our
> > > > >> capacity to
> > > > >> > > > > > > pervert, citation is usually used in a highly selective
> > > > >> manner,
> > > > >> > > > > > > usually along with a core academic (religious etc.) narrative
> > > > >> of
> > > > >> > > > > > > exclusion of competing argument. Control of what is reliable
> > > > >> memory
> > > > >> > > > > > > is, of course, just what those in power want to maintain -
> > > > >> perhaps
> > > > >> > > > > > > through principles of Home and Vanity. I will always prefer
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > > > > > margins to this, remembering that to oppose tyranny can
> > > > >> pervert into
> > > > >> > > > > > > its support.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > Deconstruction is only a beginning. I believe its spirit
> > > > >> concerns a
> > > > >> > > > > > > defeat of madness that includes rationalist fantasy and animal
> > > > >> > > > > > > consensus (which I sense as grasping, selfish individualism
> > > > >> easy to
> > > > >> > > > > > > rule).
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > On Jan 25, 3:26 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > > "Is this not an important part of the dynamic
> > > > >> multidimensional mind
> > > > >> > > > > > > > Vam, can you find nothing of value with meeting this view
> > > > >> at least as
> > > > >> > > > > > > > a challenge?"
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > > James, starting with God is a bad idea. Perhaps, ending up
> > > > >> at it is
> > > > >> > > > > > > > what needs to happen. Dawkins was in Jaipur here and I
> > > > >> found his view
> > > > >> > > > > > > > a lot more balanced, less bigoted and militant.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > > And Neil is right : it must deal with morality. Where his
> > > > >> discourse
> > > > >> > > > > > > > runs dry is when he is quoting other people ! That is also
> > > > >> my
> > > > >> > > > > > > > compelling logic against intellectual property rights. What
> > > > >> damned
> > > > >> > > > > > > > "rights" on knowledge of any kind ? Or, why must we have to
> > > > >> give
> > > > >> > > > > > > > references, when all we wish to say is ours, with us ? If
> > > > >> it's not
> > > > >> > > > > > > > ours, for us to say, we should STFU !
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > > The formal aspect of Truth or truths is onerous. There are
> > > > >> libraries
> > > > >> > > > > > > > out there where it goes dry. It is the informal one that I
> > > > >> wish to put
>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Re: Mind's Eye Facebook IPO rip-off?

2012-02-01T03:36:00.001-08:00

Most women I know consider the founder creepy and haven't signed on-
one, an artist, advised to get "out there" to boost sales and name
recognition. Someone has been trying to get me on a business social
group but I haven't taken it up since they decided I was a "free
lance"- whatever that is!

On Feb 1, 12:46 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> the only reason I use face book now is because my daughter is ther and it
> is how I keep track of what is happening in her life..
> I like the new EU laws that require these massive companies to turn over
> all information they have on you on request.. and also have to delete all
> information also on request.. will glad when they take effect..
> The companies don't like the fines involved if they don't comply.
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 12:50 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The selling point of Facebook is supposedly the "lock-in" it has one
> > you as a customer because your friends are there. I can't really be
> > bothered with it because so many people I don't want to know are
> > there! And all the spam and dire else that comes with the Internet.
> > I do shop online, but that's largely because I don't like shops and
> > shopping - plus some stuff is much cheaper than my 'local' chain-
> > store.
>
> > What I'd like to be able to do is buy in advance direct from
> > manufacturers in an environment of peer review on quality and
> > service. One can easily imagine a kind of auction service for such in
> > which I put up what I want and manufacturers and service suppliers
> > could bid to fulfill my needs and that of my agreed collective. I'd
> > want fellow members to be able to control and advertising and for a
> > collective representation if things go wrong.
>
> > The technology to run Facebook is hardly a barrier to entry. My idea
> > would be to undercut retailing through a new logistic model that would
> > not involve the collective auction becoming a retailer or holding
> > stock. One example is Green Metropolis which just takes a fee on
> > books held by members and sold through its site.
>
> > I think a lot of fingers will get burned over Facebook. I wonder if
> > there is an alternative that would not be concerned with retailing and
> > all its gimmicks? I've never responded to a Google ad so far and
> > suspect there must be a better way to source essentials.
>
> --
> (
> )
> |_D Allan
>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Re: Mind's Eye Re: Truth & I

2012-02-01T03:27:00.001-08:00

Just to clarify my thought- that luck and timing can be good, bad or
indifferent. Also rather than active thinking being a debate, it is
more like selection. Literature and social sciences deal with layered
communication- for instance, withholding facts, feelings or motives.
It is often called discretion. :-) How do you mean "identity"?

On Jan 31, 11:09 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The 'making sense of things later' seems true even in the split second
> in brain research. I regard all strategy as retrospectively devised!
> There's a book just out by Hill and Myatt (economists) on just how
> facile economics teaching is in universities - but this contains
> nothing on how this has happened. Some of this seems to me connected
> with a lack of movement beyond identity Molly.
>
> On Jan 31, 1:30 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Part of human nature is to identify with people, thoughts, ideas
> > around us. Being able to witness your identification, and moving
> > beyond it is the real treasure.
>
> > On Jan 29, 9:10 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Molly your question has my mind running around its dust bins. Most my
> > > thoughts are not original but more composites of other ideas. They are like
> > > hand me downs,, like the 3D image comes from watching how people search
> > > for treasure on sunken vessels, it is rags from a different ?idea?.
>
> > > My world is a world of rags in the form of other ideas.
> > > Allan
> > > On Jan 29, 2012 8:21 PM, "Allan H" <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Yeah it is kind of like an old dog sappen on his favorite bone.
>
> > > > it is trying to understand others, and what I have experienced As I have
> > > > very few friends that like discussing God I talk to myself a lot..which is
> > > > no problem as I am never really alone,.
> > > > Allan
>
> > > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >> Not at all irrelevant. did you have more thoughts about this?
>
> > > >> On Jan 28, 10:19 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> > Hi Mol&Rigs, listening to you two I've been asking myself why none of
> > > >> > you mentions Jung and his description of the collective unconscious. I
> > > >> > haven't read the Red Book yet, but maybe of of you has and could tell
> > > >> > me why this is irrelevant to what you are discussing.
>
> > > >> > On Jan 27, 2:35 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >> > > The paramount paradox.
>
> > > >> > > On Jan 27, 8:21 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > >> > > > Yes- I've read a lot of Campbell and admire his efforts. In fact, I
> > > >> > > > was going to put the Oriental Mythology of his Masks of God series
> > > >> > > > aside to reread- Indian, Chinese and Japanese chapters. I wish I
> > > >> could
> > > >> > > > keep certain studies on top of my thinking but maybe I have read so
> > > >> > > > much there is a chute to forgetfulness or a pit of scrambled
> > > >> > > > ideas! :-) Oh, dear!
>
> > > >> > > > However, back to your comment about looking back/within. I consider
> > > >> > > > there is impossible split between the spiritual and material and yet
> > > >> > > > that is our struggle to bridge- if possible.
>
> > > >> > > > On Jan 27, 6:32 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >> > > > > Do myths disappear? Joseph Campbell mapped common human myth
> > > >> around
> > > >> > > > > the word and through time to discover a mechanism something close
> > > >> to
> > > >> > > > > common memory - the expression of the same archetypes in real
> > > >> time,
> > > >> > > > > isolated incidents around the globe and at the same time. This
> > > >> > > > > phenomena has occurred throughout human history. This may tell us
> > > >> > > > > that it is not the looking back that is important, but as Vam
> > > >> says,
> > > >> > > > > looking within.
>
> > > >> > > > > On Jan 26, 5:54 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > >> > > > > > What is original? I might argue that one is simply explicating
> > > >> what
> > > >> > > > > > already exists.
>
> > > >> > > > > > Each generation assumes it has a distinct character- or needs
> > > >> to prove
> > > >> > > > > > that it has.
>
> > > >> > > > > > Was thinking the reason myths disappear is because they were
> > > >> oral and
> > > >> > > > > > native languages are usually suppressed by the conquerors. One
> > > >> also
> > > >> > > > > > carries family myths- which interfere with deep communication.
>
> > > >> > > > > > Yes- there are terrible inequities- all the more scandalous
> > > >> because
> > > >> > > > > > there really is plenty to go around so the root is greed and
> > > >> distain
> > > >> > > > > > for others. Governments only pretend to care for all its
> > > >> citizens- it
> > > >> > > > > > picks and chooses.
>
> > > >> > > > > > We passed the Gilded Age- I would call this the Tinsel Age.
>
> > > >> > > > > > On Jan 25, 9:45 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >> > > > > > > I would say, Vam, that you often jump in the water with an
> > > >> 'entourage'
> > > >> > > > > > > of assumptive baggage. I probably dislike citation more than
> > > >> you and
> > > >> > > > > > > am not the first. Veblen would be a good start (to use some
> > > >> rough
> > > >> > > > > > > citation). These days, you can at least Google the name.
> > > >> When I
> > > >> > > > > > > started it meant a trip to the library. Anyone who has the
> > > >> chance to
> > > >> > > > > > > read a lot of what's available (this is still remarkably few)
> > > >> should
> > > >> > > > > > > discover most of what they thought their own ideas have been
> > > >> done
> > > >> > > > > > > before. The idea is no doubt to try to 'stand on the
> > > >> shoulders of
> > > >> > > > > > > giants' (itself a wisecrack by Newton on Hooke's dwarfish
> > > >> stature).
> > > >> > > > > > > The 'giants' always turn out flawed. Moses is a war criminal
> > > >> in
> > > >> > > > > > > Numbers 31, the Greeks, for all their argument, never
> > > >> produced a
> > > >> > > > > > > decent one against slavery (the lunatic-religious John Brown
> > > >> being
> > > >> > > > > > > better). Many, because they don't read enough, attribute
> > > >> 'relativity'
> > > >> > > > > > > to Einstein, but it has a longer and wider history. The
> > > >> chattering
> > > >> > > > > > > class reinvents the square wheel all over the place.
>
> > > >> > > > > > > What if the best of our system is fascist and we have grown
> > > >> in such
> > > >> > > > > > > culture, or a caste system? By what processes do we get an
> > > >> > > > > > > understanding for change from such? Western propaganda would
> > > >> have us
> > > >> > > > > > > believe pouring resources into the gullets of the rich is
> > > >> sensible.
> > > >> > > > > > > We all live in the gutter. Only some of us lift our eyes to
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > > > > > stars. If only I was smart enough to have been first to
> > > >> that! (Oscar
> > > >> > > > > > > Wilde) A common jibe by academics is that common sense is
> > > >> that which
> > > >> > > > > > > allows us to believe the world is flat - yet flat-earth was an
> > > >> > > > > > > academic construction - one can actually see the curvature of
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > > > > > Earth.
>
> > > >> > > > > > > What we need is reliable collective memory. Given our
> > > >> capacity to
> > > >> > > > > > > pervert, citation is usually used in a highly selective
> > > >> manner,
> > > >> > > > > > > usually along with a core academic (religious etc.) narrative
> > > >> of
> > > >> > > > > > > exclusion of competing argument. Control of what is reliable
> > > >> memory
> > > >> > > > > > > is, of course, just what those in power want to maintain -
> > > >> perhaps
> > > >> > > > > > > through principles of Home and Vanity. I will always prefer
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > > > > > margins to this, remembering that to oppose tyranny can
> > > >> pervert into
> > > >> > > > > > > its support.
>
> > > >> > > > > > > Deconstruction is only a beginning. I believe its spirit
> > > >> concerns a
> > > >> > > > > > > defeat of madness that includes rationalist fantasy and animal
> > > >> > > > > > > consensus (which I sense as grasping, selfish individualism
> > > >> easy to
> > > >> > > > > > > rule).
>
> > > >> > > > > > > On Jan 25, 3:26 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >> > > > > > > > "Is this not an important part of the dynamic
> > > >> multidimensional mind
> > > >> > > > > > > > Vam, can you find nothing of value with meeting this view
> > > >> at least as
> > > >> > > > > > > > a challenge?"
>
> > > >> > > > > > > > James, starting with God is a bad idea. Perhaps, ending up
> > > >> at it is
> > > >> > > > > > > > what needs to happen. Dawkins was in Jaipur here and I
> > > >> found his view
> > > >> > > > > > > > a lot more balanced, less bigoted and militant.
>
> > > >> > > > > > > > And Neil is right : it must deal with morality. Where his
> > > >> discourse
> > > >> > > > > > > > runs dry is when he is quoting other people ! That is also
> > > >> my
> > > >> > > > > > > > compelling logic against intellectual property rights. What
> > > >> damned
> > > >> > > > > > > > "rights" on knowledge of any kind ? Or, why must we have to
> > > >> give
> > > >> > > > > > > > references, when all we wish to say is ours, with us ? If
> > > >> it's not
> > > >> > > > > > > > ours, for us to say, we should STFU !
>
> > > >> > > > > > > > The formal aspect of Truth or truths is onerous. There are
> > > >> libraries
> > > >> > > > > > > > out there where it goes dry. It is the informal one that I
> > > >> wish to put
> > > >> > > > > > > > across : it is mine... and for that reason should be
> > > >> everyone's, of
> > > >> > > > > > > > everything. And that ( informal aspect ) is... HOME. The
> > > >> search for
> > > >> > > > > > > > that place which is truly ours, where we can rest without
> > > >> fear, free
> > > >> > > > > > > > and fulfilled, which nothing in the whole universe can take
> > > >> away from
> > > >> > > > > > > > us. Truth is our Home.
>
> > > >> > > > > > > > This is no parable I've begun. People are spent for and on
> > > >> a " home "
> > > >> > > > > > > > for themselves. They build, buy, rent one for the body...
> > > >> house or
> > > >> > > > > > > > apartment, car or craft. But then the worst a-holes amongst
> > > >> us come to
>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Re: Mind's Eye Facebook IPO rip-off?

2012-01-31T22:46:00.001-08:00

the only reason I use face book now is because my daughter is ther and it is how I keep track of what is happening in her life..

I like the new EU laws that require these massive companies to turn over all information they have on you on request.. and also have to delete all information also on request.. will glad when they take effect..

The companies don't like the fines involved if they don't comply.

Allan

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 12:50 AM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:

The selling point of Facebook is supposedly the "lock-in" it has one
you as a customer because your friends are there. I can't really be
bothered with it because so many people I don't want to know are
there! And all the spam and dire else that comes with the Internet.
I do shop online, but that's largely because I don't like shops and
shopping - plus some stuff is much cheaper than my 'local' chain-
store.

What I'd like to be able to do is buy in advance direct from
manufacturers in an environment of peer review on quality and
service. One can easily imagine a kind of auction service for such in
which I put up what I want and manufacturers and service suppliers
could bid to fulfill my needs and that of my agreed collective. I'd
want fellow members to be able to control and advertising and for a
collective representation if things go wrong.

The technology to run Facebook is hardly a barrier to entry. My idea
would be to undercut retailing through a new logistic model that would
not involve the collective auction becoming a retailer or holding
stock. One example is Green Metropolis which just takes a fee on
books held by members and sold through its site.

I think a lot of fingers will get burned over Facebook. I wonder if
there is an alternative that would not be concerned with retailing and
all its gimmicks? I've never responded to a Google ad so far and
suspect there must be a better way to source essentials.

--
(

)

|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Mind's Eye Facebook IPO rip-off?

2012-01-31T15:50:00.001-08:00

The selling point of Facebook is supposedly the "lock-in" it has one
you as a customer because your friends are there. I can't really be
bothered with it because so many people I don't want to know are
there! And all the spam and dire else that comes with the Internet.
I do shop online, but that's largely because I don't like shops and
shopping - plus some stuff is much cheaper than my 'local' chain-
store.

What I'd like to be able to do is buy in advance direct from
manufacturers in an environment of peer review on quality and
service. One can easily imagine a kind of auction service for such in
which I put up what I want and manufacturers and service suppliers
could bid to fulfill my needs and that of my agreed collective. I'd
want fellow members to be able to control and advertising and for a
collective representation if things go wrong.

The technology to run Facebook is hardly a barrier to entry. My idea
would be to undercut retailing through a new logistic model that would
not involve the collective auction becoming a retailer or holding
stock. One example is Green Metropolis which just takes a fee on
books held by members and sold through its site.

I think a lot of fingers will get burned over Facebook. I wonder if
there is an alternative that would not be concerned with retailing and
all its gimmicks? I've never responded to a Google ad so far and
suspect there must be a better way to source essentials.

Re: Mind's Eye Re: Beliefs

2012-01-31T12:42:00.000-08:00

lol you have a guardian Neil, mine ended up with the name Patches over a long duration, and it put a name it put a name to my companion Patches does not wake my dogs when I am to lazy to d it,, maybe the interation can be more explained like a parent or older sibling guiding you at wha you are doing.

You may notice it when your attention is suddenly drawn an object for what ever reason. If you take the time to understand the faith of a child and not having to know everything your guardian may calm you guiding you in the assembly process.. Forgive me when I say i enjoy the company of my guardian, when I am trying to understand something I talk to patches, what people see is me talking to my self,, that is there problem.
Allan

You might try calling your guardian "Charlie" or something else it doesn't matter

On Jan 31, 2012 5:50 PM, "archytas" <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Our dog is upstairs sulking because I'm building a flat-pack wardrobe
> in Sue's room instead of letting him drag me round the block. One is
> in need of several 'Patches' in life to cope with dog detritus
> cunningly placed underfoot and the congeries of flat-pack assembly -
> notably one to cope with my temper on these occasions of hazard!
> On Jan 30, 7:35 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I have had both of my knees replaced, I am not complaining as they are
> > what allow me to walk normally, they do come with their share of problems
> > though and they can not take the abuse of a normal healthy knee..
> >
> > This morning I was taking my dog down stairs to go potty, half awake as
> > usual and I over stepped taking three steps at one time. That is not good
> > for me or my artificial knees. The moment before what could have been a
> > serious accident happened I was suddenly brought to being totally
> > alert where I was able to prevent a serious falling accident. I have a
> > Spiritual Guardian whose name is Patches who managed to save my buns from
> > serious injury. Patches is very much part of my life in this physical
> > world, Because of him I know there is order instead of chaos and also there
> > is rank and file.
> >
> > I am very grateful to Patches as he has been my companion though thick an
> > thin. I know he is a very honored guardian, the reason why I prefer not to
> > make public..
> >
> > (NOTE)
> > The occupy movement is required to move to shelters during freezing weather
> > which was to the delight of the Mayor of Den Haag ,, sorry
> > the occupy movement is allowed to be on their site till 10 PM at which time
> > they are required to go to shelters for their safety, The courts have ruled
> > this way and they also ruled that the tents do not have to be removed and
> > when it is safe to return they will to their tents full time.. the
> > emergency shelters are open to all that need them and the homeless are
> > required to go there.. The City is also required to 'post' Police Officers
> > to protect their property and tents while they are in the shelters.
> >
> > It is nice to see protesters dealt with humanly rather than have them beat
> > up at the whim of politicians under the influence of money.
> > Allan
> >
> > --
> > (
> > )
> > |_D Allan
> >
> > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.hel\

Re: Mind's Eye The Unconscious

2012-01-31T10:55:00.000-08:00

I do do that kind of speculation RP - but sometimes something 'closer
to home' makes me wonder. Epigenetics closely links our changes in
evolution with climatic changes and the like (good example at PLoS
One, DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0030226). This adaptability can often
feel built-in by mind. I agree with Dawkins that such spewculation
doesn't seem to help at all with science - but science itself comes up
short in terms of the moral. I'm putting a flat-pack wardrobe
together at the moment to make storing our stuff easier (etc.) - and I
often wonder why this life - I tend to prefer it being for something
and that 'we' may know this in the future.

On Jan 31, 5:40 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If we conjecture that infinite space was always there without a beginning
> and infinite number of universes have been born and died we reach some sort
> of an answer. Just before this universe the energy latent in space
> convulsed and formed a cosmic egg , which by its very nature contained the
> entirety of the universe as a hen is contained in an egg , now the energy
> which created the egg had to be guided by something and to me the answer is
> the cosmic mind. Neil, this is my conjecture , but I like the truth to be
> so.

Re: Mind's Eye The Unconscious

2012-01-31T09:40:00.001-08:00

If we conjecture that infinite space was always there without a beginning and infinite number of universes have been born and died we reach some sort of an answer. Just before this universe the energy latent in space convulsed and formed a cosmic egg , which by its very nature contained the entirety of the universe as a hen is contained in an egg , now the energy which created the egg had to be guided by something and to me the answer is the cosmic mind. Neil, this is my conjecture , but I like the truth to be so.

Re: Mind's Eye Re: Truth & I

2012-01-31T09:09:00.001-08:00

The 'making sense of things later' seems true even in the split second
in brain research. I regard all strategy as retrospectively devised!
There's a book just out by Hill and Myatt (economists) on just how
facile economics teaching is in universities - but this contains
nothing on how this has happened. Some of this seems to me connected
with a lack of movement beyond identity Molly.

On Jan 31, 1:30 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Part of human nature is to identify with people, thoughts, ideas
> around us. Being able to witness your identification, and moving
> beyond it is the real treasure.
>
> On Jan 29, 9:10 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Molly your question has my mind running around its dust bins. Most my
> > thoughts are not original but more composites of other ideas. They are like
> > hand me downs,, like the 3D image comes from watching how people search
> > for treasure on sunken vessels, it is rags from a different ?idea?.
>
> > My world is a world of rags in the form of other ideas.
> > Allan
> > On Jan 29, 2012 8:21 PM, "Allan H" <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Yeah it is kind of like an old dog sappen on his favorite bone.
>
> > > it is trying to understand others, and what I have experienced As I have
> > > very few friends that like discussing God I talk to myself a lot..which is
> > > no problem as I am never really alone,.
> > > Allan
>
> > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> Not at all irrelevant. did you have more thoughts about this?
>
> > >> On Jan 28, 10:19 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > Hi Mol&Rigs, listening to you two I've been asking myself why none of
> > >> > you mentions Jung and his description of the collective unconscious. I
> > >> > haven't read the Red Book yet, but maybe of of you has and could tell
> > >> > me why this is irrelevant to what you are discussing.
>
> > >> > On Jan 27, 2:35 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> > > The paramount paradox.
>
> > >> > > On Jan 27, 8:21 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > >> > > > Yes- I've read a lot of Campbell and admire his efforts. In fact, I
> > >> > > > was going to put the Oriental Mythology of his Masks of God series
> > >> > > > aside to reread- Indian, Chinese and Japanese chapters. I wish I
> > >> could
> > >> > > > keep certain studies on top of my thinking but maybe I have read so
> > >> > > > much there is a chute to forgetfulness or a pit of scrambled
> > >> > > > ideas! :-) Oh, dear!
>
> > >> > > > However, back to your comment about looking back/within. I consider
> > >> > > > there is impossible split between the spiritual and material and yet
> > >> > > > that is our struggle to bridge- if possible.
>
> > >> > > > On Jan 27, 6:32 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> > > > > Do myths disappear? Joseph Campbell mapped common human myth
> > >> around
> > >> > > > > the word and through time to discover a mechanism something close
> > >> to
> > >> > > > > common memory - the expression of the same archetypes in real
> > >> time,
> > >> > > > > isolated incidents around the globe and at the same time. This
> > >> > > > > phenomena has occurred throughout human history. This may tell us
> > >> > > > > that it is not the looking back that is important, but as Vam
> > >> says,
> > >> > > > > looking within.
>
> > >> > > > > On Jan 26, 5:54 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > >> > > > > > What is original? I might argue that one is simply explicating
> > >> what
> > >> > > > > > already exists.
>
> > >> > > > > > Each generation assumes it has a distinct character- or needs
> > >> to prove
> > >> > > > > > that it has.
>
> > >> > > > > > Was thinking the reason myths disappear is because they were
> > >> oral and
> > >> > > > > > native languages are usually suppressed by the conquerors. One
> > >> also
> > >> > > > > > carries family myths- which interfere with deep communication.
>
> > >> > > > > > Yes- there are terrible inequities- all the more scandalous
> > >> because
> > >> > > > > > there really is plenty to go around so the root is greed and
> > >> distain
> > >> > > > > > for others. Governments only pretend to care for all its
> > >> citizens- it
> > >> > > > > > picks and chooses.
>
> > >> > > > > > We passed the Gilded Age- I would call this the Tinsel Age.
>
> > >> > > > > > On Jan 25, 9:45 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> > > > > > > I would say, Vam, that you often jump in the water with an
> > >> 'entourage'
> > >> > > > > > > of assumptive baggage. I probably dislike citation more than
> > >> you and
> > >> > > > > > > am not the first. Veblen would be a good start (to use some
> > >> rough
> > >> > > > > > > citation). These days, you can at least Google the name.
> > >> When I
> > >> > > > > > > started it meant a trip to the library. Anyone who has the
> > >> chance to
> > >> > > > > > > read a lot of what's available (this is still remarkably few)
> > >> should
> > >> > > > > > > discover most of what they thought their own ideas have been
> > >> done
> > >> > > > > > > before. The idea is no doubt to try to 'stand on the
> > >> shoulders of
> > >> > > > > > > giants' (itself a wisecrack by Newton on Hooke's dwarfish
> > >> stature).
> > >> > > > > > > The 'giants' always turn out flawed. Moses is a war criminal
> > >> in
> > >> > > > > > > Numbers 31, the Greeks, for all their argument, never
> > >> produced a
> > >> > > > > > > decent one against slavery (the lunatic-religious John Brown
> > >> being
> > >> > > > > > > better). Many, because they don't read enough, attribute
> > >> 'relativity'
> > >> > > > > > > to Einstein, but it has a longer and wider history. The
> > >> chattering
> > >> > > > > > > class reinvents the square wheel all over the place.
>
> > >> > > > > > > What if the best of our system is fascist and we have grown
> > >> in such
> > >> > > > > > > culture, or a caste system? By what processes do we get an
> > >> > > > > > > understanding for change from such? Western propaganda would
> > >> have us
> > >> > > > > > > believe pouring resources into the gullets of the rich is
> > >> sensible.
> > >> > > > > > > We all live in the gutter. Only some of us lift our eyes to
> > >> the
> > >> > > > > > > stars. If only I was smart enough to have been first to
> > >> that! (Oscar
> > >> > > > > > > Wilde) A common jibe by academics is that common sense is
> > >> that which
> > >> > > > > > > allows us to believe the world is flat - yet flat-earth was an
> > >> > > > > > > academic construction - one can actually see the curvature of
> > >> the
> > >> > > > > > > Earth.
>
> > >> > > > > > > What we need is reliable collective memory. Given our
> > >> capacity to
> > >> > > > > > > pervert, citation is usually used in a highly selective
> > >> manner,
> > >> > > > > > > usually along with a core academic (religious etc.) narrative
> > >> of
> > >> > > > > > > exclusion of competing argument. Control of what is reliable
> > >> memory
> > >> > > > > > > is, of course, just what those in power want to maintain -
> > >> perhaps
> > >> > > > > > > through principles of Home and Vanity. I will always prefer
> > >> the
> > >> > > > > > > margins to this, remembering that to oppose tyranny can
> > >> pervert into
> > >> > > > > > > its support.
>
> > >> > > > > > > Deconstruction is only a beginning. I believe its spirit
> > >> concerns a
> > >> > > > > > > defeat of madness that includes rationalist fantasy and animal
> > >> > > > > > > consensus (which I sense as grasping, selfish individualism
> > >> easy to
> > >> > > > > > > rule).
>
> > >> > > > > > > On Jan 25, 3:26 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> > > > > > > > "Is this not an important part of the dynamic
> > >> multidimensional mind
> > >> > > > > > > > Vam, can you find nothing of value with meeting this view
> > >> at least as
> > >> > > > > > > > a challenge?"
>
> > >> > > > > > > > James, starting with God is a bad idea. Perhaps, ending up
> > >> at it is
> > >> > > > > > > > what needs to happen. Dawkins was in Jaipur here and I
> > >> found his view
> > >> > > > > > > > a lot more balanced, less bigoted and militant.
>
> > >> > > > > > > > And Neil is right : it must deal with morality. Where his
> > >> discourse
> > >> > > > > > > > runs dry is when he is quoting other people ! That is also
> > >> my
> > >> > > > > > > > compelling logic against intellectual property rights. What
> > >> damned
> > >> > > > > > > > "rights" on knowledge of any kind ? Or, why must we have to
> > >> give
> > >> > > > > > > > references, when all we wish to say is ours, with us ? If
> > >> it's not
> > >> > > > > > > > ours, for us to say, we should STFU !
>
> > >> > > > > > > > The formal aspect of Truth or truths is onerous. There are
> > >> libraries
> > >> > > > > > > > out there where it goes dry. It is the informal one that I
> > >> wish to put
> > >> > > > > > > > across : it is mine... and for that reason should be
> > >> everyone's, of
> > >> > > > > > > > everything. And that ( informal aspect ) is... HOME. The
> > >> search for
> > >> > > > > > > > that place which is truly ours, where we can rest without
> > >> fear, free
> > >> > > > > > > > and fulfilled, which nothing in the whole universe can take
> > >> away from
> > >> > > > > > > > us. Truth is our Home.
>
> > >> > > > > > > > This is no parable I've begun. People are spent for and on
> > >> a " home "
> > >> > > > > > > > for themselves. They build, buy, rent one for the body...
> > >> house or
> > >> > > > > > > > apartment, car or craft. But then the worst a-holes amongst
> > >> us come to
> > >> > > > > > > > believe that home they are so invested on is also the "
> > >> home " to
> > >> > > > > > > > their emotion, to their thought, their identity, and their
> > >> happiness
> > >> > > > > > > > too ! Well, it is and it definitely isn't.
>
> > >> > > > > > > > The better ( a-hols ) take on a wife, friend, progeny or
> > >> pet,
> > >> > > > > > > > community or cause, to engage their
> > >> emotion-thought-identity where,
> > >> > > > > > > > with whom or which, one then feels at home. Of that our
> > >> thought is
> > >> > > > > > > > preoccupied... that same ' faculty ' that had been used to
> > >> focus on
> > >> > > > > > > > money to buy the home, on the value of food and worth of
> > >> delicacies,
> > >> > > > > > > > on the relevance of what is beneficial and serves our
> > >> purposes and
>
> ...
>
> read more »

Re: Mind's Eye The Unconscious

2012-01-31T09:00:00.001-08:00

This is at it seems to me RP. The maths of tomorrow being rather like
today is famously complicated though. One cannot be sure about
designing mind and I can think of other possibilities, though none
resolve the beginning conundrum.

On Jan 30, 2:14 am, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The orderly way our body is formed and works throughout life , the
> effects of food and the environment on it - shows that there is some
> Mind behind it and which by its very name denotes order and not chaos.
> We can see order everywhere and where we don't we will find so in
> times to come as life cannot be explained by human caprice. Neil , the
> spiritual and the material is mixed up and no spiritual activity can
> override its physical or material background. You will still need this
> physical body and brain for all your spiritual controls. And the
> physical , you will admit , is very much controlled by laws of biology
> etc.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 4:36 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm not sure we are that certain of the trajectories of celestial
> > bodies RP. We need fractals even for that. I'm not sure determinism
> > matters as we attempt to understand what is determining us and whether
> > we can exert some other (spiritual) 'control'. It may all be for
> > nothing by such is the nature of the quest.
>
> > On Jan 29, 6:44 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> If you read my posts in continuum you will find that I have been
> >> saying the same thing , although not thus rudely.
>
> >> On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 11:55 PM, pol.science kid <r.freeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > but sometimes you know .. you say something completely different..
>
> >> > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 8:51 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> >> God , Nature , Truth , Reality is unconscious and the Creation which
> >> >> emanates from it has no choice. You may think that you have choice , but
> >> >> whatever you think , feel and do is as certain as the trajectory of the
> >> >> celestial bodies. The entire universe , you included, is bound by laws and
> >> >> everyone is a slave to" Laws", that is , "The Will of God".
>
> >> > --
> >> > EverComing

Mind's Eye Re: Beliefs

2012-01-31T08:50:00.000-08:00

Our dog is upstairs sulking because I'm building a flat-pack wardrobe
in Sue's room instead of letting him drag me round the block. One is
in need of several 'Patches' in life to cope with dog detritus
cunningly placed underfoot and the congeries of flat-pack assembly -
notably one to cope with my temper on these occasions of hazard!

On Jan 30, 7:35 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have had both of my knees replaced, I am not complaining as they are
> what allow me to walk normally, they do come with their share of problems
> though and they can not take the abuse of a normal healthy knee..
>
> This morning I was taking my dog down stairs to go potty, half awake as
> usual and I over stepped taking three steps at one time. That is not good
> for me or my artificial knees. The moment before what could have been a
> serious accident happened I was suddenly brought to being totally
> alert where I was able to prevent a serious falling accident. I have a
> Spiritual Guardian whose name is Patches who managed to save my buns from
> serious injury. Patches is very much part of my life in this physical
> world, Because of him I know there is order instead of chaos and also there
> is rank and file.
>
> I am very grateful to Patches as he has been my companion though thick an
> thin. I know he is a very honored guardian, the reason why I prefer not to
> make public..
>
> (NOTE)
> The occupy movement is required to move to shelters during freezing weather
> which was to the delight of the Mayor of Den Haag ,, sorry
> the occupy movement is allowed to be on their site till 10 PM at which time
> they are required to go to shelters for their safety, The courts have ruled
> this way and they also ruled that the tents do not have to be removed and
> when it is safe to return they will to their tents full time.. the
> emergency shelters are open to all that need them and the homeless are
> required to go there.. The City is also required to 'post' Police Officers
> to protect their property and tents while they are in the shelters.
>
> It is nice to see protesters dealt with humanly rather than have them beat
> up at the whim of politicians under the influence of money.
> Allan
>
> --
> (
> )
> |_D Allan
>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Re: Mind's Eye Re: Truth & I

2012-01-31T05:30:00.001-08:00

Part of human nature is to identify with people, thoughts, ideas
around us. Being able to witness your identification, and moving
beyond it is the real treasure.

On Jan 29, 9:10 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Molly your question has my mind running around its dust bins. Most my
> thoughts are not original but more composites of other ideas. They are like
> hand me downs,, like the 3D image comes from watching how people search
> for treasure on sunken vessels, it is rags from a different ?idea?.
>
> My world is a world of rags in the form of other ideas.
> Allan
> On Jan 29, 2012 8:21 PM, "Allan H" <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yeah it is kind of like an old dog sappen on his favorite bone.
>
> > it is trying to understand others, and what I have experienced As I have
> > very few friends that like discussing God I talk to myself a lot..which is
> > no problem as I am never really alone,.
> > Allan
>
> > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Not at all irrelevant. did you have more thoughts about this?
>
> >> On Jan 28, 10:19 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Hi Mol&Rigs, listening to you two I've been asking myself why none of
> >> > you mentions Jung and his description of the collective unconscious. I
> >> > haven't read the Red Book yet, but maybe of of you has and could tell
> >> > me why this is irrelevant to what you are discussing.
>
> >> > On Jan 27, 2:35 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > The paramount paradox.
>
> >> > > On Jan 27, 8:21 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > > Yes- I've read a lot of Campbell and admire his efforts. In fact, I
> >> > > > was going to put the Oriental Mythology of his Masks of God series
> >> > > > aside to reread- Indian, Chinese and Japanese chapters. I wish I
> >> could
> >> > > > keep certain studies on top of my thinking but maybe I have read so
> >> > > > much there is a chute to forgetfulness or a pit of scrambled
> >> > > > ideas! :-) Oh, dear!
>
> >> > > > However, back to your comment about looking back/within. I consider
> >> > > > there is impossible split between the spiritual and material and yet
> >> > > > that is our struggle to bridge- if possible.
>
> >> > > > On Jan 27, 6:32 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > > > Do myths disappear? Joseph Campbell mapped common human myth
> >> around
> >> > > > > the word and through time to discover a mechanism something close
> >> to
> >> > > > > common memory - the expression of the same archetypes in real
> >> time,
> >> > > > > isolated incidents around the globe and at the same time. This
> >> > > > > phenomena has occurred throughout human history. This may tell us
> >> > > > > that it is not the looking back that is important, but as Vam
> >> says,
> >> > > > > looking within.
>
> >> > > > > On Jan 26, 5:54 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > > > > What is original? I might argue that one is simply explicating
> >> what
> >> > > > > > already exists.
>
> >> > > > > > Each generation assumes it has a distinct character- or needs
> >> to prove
> >> > > > > > that it has.
>
> >> > > > > > Was thinking the reason myths disappear is because they were
> >> oral and
> >> > > > > > native languages are usually suppressed by the conquerors. One
> >> also
> >> > > > > > carries family myths- which interfere with deep communication.
>
> >> > > > > > Yes- there are terrible inequities- all the more scandalous
> >> because
> >> > > > > > there really is plenty to go around so the root is greed and
> >> distain
> >> > > > > > for others. Governments only pretend to care for all its
> >> citizens- it
> >> > > > > > picks and chooses.
>
> >> > > > > > We passed the Gilded Age- I would call this the Tinsel Age.
>
> >> > > > > > On Jan 25, 9:45 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > > > > > I would say, Vam, that you often jump in the water with an
> >> 'entourage'
> >> > > > > > > of assumptive baggage. I probably dislike citation more than
> >> you and
> >> > > > > > > am not the first. Veblen would be a good start (to use some
> >> rough
> >> > > > > > > citation). These days, you can at least Google the name.
> >> When I
> >> > > > > > > started it meant a trip to the library. Anyone who has the
> >> chance to
> >> > > > > > > read a lot of what's available (this is still remarkably few)
> >> should
> >> > > > > > > discover most of what they thought their own ideas have been
> >> done
> >> > > > > > > before. The idea is no doubt to try to 'stand on the
> >> shoulders of
> >> > > > > > > giants' (itself a wisecrack by Newton on Hooke's dwarfish
> >> stature).
> >> > > > > > > The 'giants' always turn out flawed. Moses is a war criminal
> >> in
> >> > > > > > > Numbers 31, the Greeks, for all their argument, never
> >> produced a
> >> > > > > > > decent one against slavery (the lunatic-religious John Brown
> >> being
> >> > > > > > > better). Many, because they don't read enough, attribute
> >> 'relativity'
> >> > > > > > > to Einstein, but it has a longer and wider history. The
> >> chattering
> >> > > > > > > class reinvents the square wheel all over the place.
>
> >> > > > > > > What if the best of our system is fascist and we have grown
> >> in such
> >> > > > > > > culture, or a caste system? By what processes do we get an
> >> > > > > > > understanding for change from such? Western propaganda would
> >> have us
> >> > > > > > > believe pouring resources into the gullets of the rich is
> >> sensible.
> >> > > > > > > We all live in the gutter. Only some of us lift our eyes to
> >> the
> >> > > > > > > stars. If only I was smart enough to have been first to
> >> that! (Oscar
> >> > > > > > > Wilde) A common jibe by academics is that common sense is
> >> that which
> >> > > > > > > allows us to believe the world is flat - yet flat-earth was an
> >> > > > > > > academic construction - one can actually see the curvature of
> >> the
> >> > > > > > > Earth.
>
> >> > > > > > > What we need is reliable collective memory. Given our
> >> capacity to
> >> > > > > > > pervert, citation is usually used in a highly selective
> >> manner,
> >> > > > > > > usually along with a core academic (religious etc.) narrative
> >> of
> >> > > > > > > exclusion of competing argument. Control of what is reliable
> >> memory
> >> > > > > > > is, of course, just what those in power want to maintain -
> >> perhaps
> >> > > > > > > through principles of Home and Vanity. I will always prefer
> >> the
> >> > > > > > > margins to this, remembering that to oppose tyranny can
> >> pervert into
> >> > > > > > > its support.
>
> >> > > > > > > Deconstruction is only a beginning. I believe its spirit
> >> concerns a
> >> > > > > > > defeat of madness that includes rationalist fantasy and animal
> >> > > > > > > consensus (which I sense as grasping, selfish individualism
> >> easy to
> >> > > > > > > rule).
>
> >> > > > > > > On Jan 25, 3:26 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > > > > > > "Is this not an important part of the dynamic
> >> multidimensional mind
> >> > > > > > > > Vam, can you find nothing of value with meeting this view
> >> at least as
> >> > > > > > > > a challenge?"
>
> >> > > > > > > > James, starting with God is a bad idea. Perhaps, ending up
> >> at it is
> >> > > > > > > > what needs to happen. Dawkins was in Jaipur here and I
> >> found his view
> >> > > > > > > > a lot more balanced, less bigoted and militant.
>
> >> > > > > > > > And Neil is right : it must deal with morality. Where his
> >> discourse
> >> > > > > > > > runs dry is when he is quoting other people ! That is also
> >> my
> >> > > > > > > > compelling logic against intellectual property rights. What
> >> damned
> >> > > > > > > > "rights" on knowledge of any kind ? Or, why must we have to
> >> give
> >> > > > > > > > references, when all we wish to say is ours, with us ? If
> >> it's not
> >> > > > > > > > ours, for us to say, we should STFU !
>
> >> > > > > > > > The formal aspect of Truth or truths is onerous. There are
> >> libraries
> >> > > > > > > > out there where it goes dry. It is the informal one that I
> >> wish to put
> >> > > > > > > > across : it is mine... and for that reason should be
> >> everyone's, of
> >> > > > > > > > everything. And that ( informal aspect ) is... HOME. The
> >> search for
> >> > > > > > > > that place which is truly ours, where we can rest without
> >> fear, free
> >> > > > > > > > and fulfilled, which nothing in the whole universe can take
> >> away from
> >> > > > > > > > us. Truth is our Home.
>
> >> > > > > > > > This is no parable I've begun. People are spent for and on
> >> a " home "
> >> > > > > > > > for themselves. They build, buy, rent one for the body...
> >> house or
> >> > > > > > > > apartment, car or craft. But then the worst a-holes amongst
> >> us come to
> >> > > > > > > > believe that home they are so invested on is also the "
> >> home " to
> >> > > > > > > > their emotion, to their thought, their identity, and their
> >> happiness
> >> > > > > > > > too ! Well, it is and it definitely isn't.
>
> >> > > > > > > > The better ( a-hols ) take on a wife, friend, progeny or
> >> pet,
> >> > > > > > > > community or cause, to engage their
> >> emotion-thought-identity where,
> >> > > > > > > > with whom or which, one then feels at home. Of that our
> >> thought is
> >> > > > > > > > preoccupied... that same ' faculty ' that had been used to
> >> focus on
> >> > > > > > > > money to buy the home, on the value of food and worth of
> >> delicacies,
> >> > > > > > > > on the relevance of what is beneficial and serves our
> >> purposes and
> >> > > > > > > > what does not.
>
> >> > > > > > > > That pitch of ' acquisition,' value, worth, relevance... is
> >> also there
> >> > > > > > > > in our thought and eye, as in it pre-exists and is
> >> consciously or
> >> > > > > > > > subconsciously applied, for the home-objects of our emotion
> >> as well.
> >> > > > > > > > For a lifetime, we carry that pitch to manage, manipulate,
> >> decide and
> >> > > > > > > > deal with what is outside us to acquire the material
> >> home-object in
> >> > > > > > > > our aim ... a domain that, for all practical purposes,
> >> encompasses
> >> > > > > > > > everything. For everything, external and internal, is
> >> outside the
> >> > > > > > > > agency, the ego-person, we are through the pursuit after
> >> our aim.
>
> >> > > > > > > > What is concurrent within,
>
> ...
>
> read more »