Re: Mind's Eye Re: Soviet Paradise (USA)

That seems remarkably like the Protestant turn without the 'who gets to levy the money' bit.  There is a charismatic element I don't disagree with, but does carry historic baggage that needs to be worked through.  A better concept of time is needed, as I've often seen you express indirectly.

The idea of Soviet American Paradise (SAP is very intentional as are references to Star Trek) would be to explore how we put out ideologies together.  Most Americans lack a sense of humour beyond wanting to laugh at a bearded chump like Chris holding up a craft beer - my own sides split every time, especially when he goes on to discuss the legal, ethical and moral considerations bandied about to render Yankee trading invisible as routine killing and theft.  There is something of a moment between decent people who know I don't mean any of this directly and we might find some better answers coming at what we don't understand from left field and fantasy.  We can stick the label 'science fiction prototyping' on this.

Idiots who can't get past the 'anti-Americanism' might have some use in the overall plan, but wouldn't be much use in getting into the construction of a prototype in which we grasp what we are very differently.  Keeping up the fantasy long enough to get the glimpses of reality we need is too tough for most.

I'd like to say more before we approach Molly's very sensible 'let's see a small one working' suggestion.  I suppose we could go back to the 1848 communes and maybe take a trip to some existing ones now like Mondragon in the Basque country (there are plenty).  And there are plenty of small business knocking about -http://www.biographywork.org/index.php

 These aren't my scenes of course.  My guess is we've got so far up ourselves we can't operate with truth.  We are obviously voting for people who lie to us and once they close the door of government behind themselves, play to the rules of the rubber-masked aliens.  If I were to say that I would kill  anyone we vote for not acceptable to me, we would not think I should be allowed to do this, yet we allow big business and worse to prevent us voting in governments that would not do what they want.  

My start would be to believe I am wandering in a dream with amnesia (very Picard), having to work out the rules from scratch.  Americans as SAPs makes a great deal of sense!

On Wednesday, April 1, 2015 at 11:01:32 PM UTC+1, Molly wrote: 

I'm not really interested in a religion based society and think most religious organizations come up short on paradise. The Catholics do a wonderful job at helping to honor loved ones that pass away. Other than that, I only really like their traditions and teachings in the abstract, as an allegory to my own inner workings. I haven't found a church that minds that, hungry as they are for even peripheral members.

The idea that I take away is that we can live our own paradise experience, and hope that the world follows by example. I've seen many of the old paradigms falling away without a clear path ahead. I keep making the leap, and so do the people around me, and while I can see organizational holes (and lapses in love for one another) life continues to happen, and me with it.

On Wednesday, April 1, 2015 at 3:20:38 PM UTC-4, archytas wrote:

The clues to American Soviet Paradise lie in such as the 800 episodes of Star Trek.  The ships are USS - clearly United Soviet States.  Politics is a thing of the past in the one party state and money long forgotten until the new Jews were brought in to ridicule - the Ferrengi have big ears and the term means 'annoying white person' in Hindi and Arabic. Godswank makes a comeback in Deep Space Nine.

Do any US businesses run on a free trade, open competitive basis?  This is claimed everywhere and seems untrue except in odd pockets like Chris' entrepreneurs club. Most US business is big, corporate and may well be subsidised - a form of hidden state capitalism.  The great entrepreneur stories of 'Mom's garage' soon turn into Mummy being on the IBM board and people being given years of military research for free.

I think there is an exciting possibility that this world contains almost no work.  If we could see that we could build something approaching paradise.  In the way is the heroism of the work ethic and people who know what the public gets to know is bullshit and the real ways of staying ahead concern controlling money  and through it the ability to poach the best talent.  Leaders were culled from Korean POW camps to make the rest placid - and we take the best from everywhere to diminish everywhere.  Nearly 60% of US citizens get welfare of some kind before you consider TARP and various Cantillon schemes that are welfare for the rich.  Soviet American Paradise - an obvious place for saps!

What would we want to build?  I know what I'd like to see and that this can be rationally argued in a way assured of treatment as mad heresy.  Spirituality might have public and private realms Allan.  Economics has only libidinality, no spirit.

On Wednesday, 1 April 2015 11:42:46 UTC+1, Allan Heretic wrote:

I think you will be and are starting to see smaller new societies.. you have to look at coops and not so much in spirituality but more within established  religions.. mainly  because the have an established moral foundation.  Spirituality  is more personality based. It is possible to guide  a church group and it is where i see societies  future headed. As people are going to need to work together to have a reasonably good life.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: Molly <mollyb363@gmail.com>
To: minds-eye@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, 01 Apr 2015 12:27 PM
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Soviet Paradise (USA)

I would like to see a smaller "new" society that has gone right. Haven't seen one yet. I enjoyed Justin's tales (hoping he wasn't a mad man's alter) about the think (or no thought) tank he tried to create centered around spirituality. Fell apart because of personality. It seems even families fall apart without a strong mandate to continue, whether through moral. ethical, traditional or led with honest love ties. Working in cooperation is not easy, the larger the group, the more it gets in the way. A group of people who can look and operate beyond all that is required but hard to come by.

On Wednesday, April 1, 2015 at 3:18:56 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote:

Primitive societies are much more egalitarian and murderous than ours.  I've never done first contact.  Playing rugby league in PNG was enough for me.  First contact would be a good place for people who protest at the use of words like primitive to understand it is a mistake to leave the AK-M behind.  The idea that there ever was a paradise to regain is likely tosh, though you can imagine we might have had to regress to enter this universe and evolve to current awareness through various stages - and still carry the baggage of the dinosaurs and so on.

People have strange notions about government.  I can make a case that the USA is now the paradigm case of the Soviet Paradise.  It's pretty obvious that none of us get to vote for government, but rather something more akin to union representatives who negotiate with the bankers and crooks who run the show, though the union concerned is a house or sweet-heart one.  Surely, not even Sartre could come up with a play so dull it was about people seeking freedom through voting Clinton, Bush, Cameron, Milliband or Hollande - Sarkoszy!  You nearly had that utter weirdo who ran a bit of Alaska until it turned out she was banged by a black guy when at college.

Would anyone want to deny the US is now a Soviet Paradise?  I still meet a few Europeans who believe they live in a democracy or might if they vote fascist.  The job looks so screwed to me that I think we should start again.  You'd think this would be pretty straight-forward if we lived in an open and democratic society.

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