Friday, April 10, 2015

Re: Mind's Eye Re: Honest Alter Universes

Dental cleaning or shall we say clarification of ideas.. I am not a big fan of Islam and really  don't hide it. At the same time for some strange reason I have many male Muslim friends.. mostly male with one female.. she is my pharmacist.

I am not a fan if terrorism,  most forms of it are the result of mindless fundamentalist views. Those views are not always religious but can also can be political. If we look at the political terrorism it really  is world wide. Rampant in the United States ruling using fear. Some of the terrorism is justified by religious grounds.. I also see the terrorism justified on political  grounds.. conservitism or poverty.  There are many mindless unthought out or snappy sayings without looking at what is said or effect.

Personally I  do not like the prayer known as the "Hail Mary" yes it is repeated in the rosary. The rosary has been recited at least from the middle ages when it started I really don't know. Tony your cult statement is not original I have heard it for over 50 years. It was wrong then and is wrong today. Calling the people  that pray the rosery a cult. .. well it does explain why you were running  out of fear down the streets of NY  after claiming to have had God speak to you.. well the truth is it is not that uncommon for God to speak to ordinary people  so S/He probably did. And like Saul of Tarsus who run off to save the world..  which is interesting because the way I read it all God said was to stop killing his people..  and he did that.. the rest of his activities are a totally  different question. .  If you start dictating to others what they have to believe in all likelihood you are going to get thumped. . 

Over the years there has been  an active interaction  between me and the realm of the soul... every time one of these incedences occur my Soul get severally  rattled mostly keeping them to myself while I sort out what happened.  On occasions  i do share them with friends..  but I will take the time tell you what happened  to me in Tuscon AZ many many years ago. It was shortly after my birthday  an a Lady friend gave me a gift of Bible ( latest  version )  i was in a church sitting there reading .. (on the pillars were lights that you could turn on for reading that was I liked going to the church.. ) There  were a small group of people that gathered say the rosary daily.. I  was busy reading my new bible when and they were doing their thing in a different part of the church.. an older couple was hobbling past when she collapsed right next to where I was reading.  She fell  in such a position even though I am well trained emergency  services there was nothing I could do .. in panic  I thought what do I do..  and the little  group  restarted "Hail Mary full of grace. . . ." so I joined in.. the lady had no pulse in her neck and she was not beathing..  the priest  came flying in on a dead run with his purple stole around his neck, blessed oils in hand .  The fire department came charging in through the main doors.. just before they arrived I felt her heart restart. Her breath began flowing over my wrist.  I moved out of the way as the lady sat up when her rescuers arrived. They wanted to take her to the hospital which was turned down.  Everyone left and the couple continued to their favourite seat in the church. They were well into their 90's and as they walked away I heard her say "You know Henry I feel  better now than when we came to church this morning."
Everything quieted down and I sat there reflecting on what had occurred  when I heard God's voice say "I can take life and give life when I choose. "

Are there alternative realities.  For me the answer is yes there is.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: Molly <>
Sent: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Honest Alter Universes

Intolerance comes with judgement, not to be confused with discernment. I like the idea of language evolving to communicate on deeper levels, because I have too often found those deeper levels can only be communicated "without a word."

On Friday, April 10, 2015 at 7:32:55 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote:
Now I have a vision of you as a mind dentist Moll - which I'm sure won't do!

The analysis is supposed to stop at some point, something there is constant (and pertinent) reminder that life is to be lived.  Much as I agree, think what horror might be in your words coming from the mouth of another - "shedding ourselves of belief and emotion and the mental constructs that come from over analyzing everything can quiet us internally for long enough to actually experience life with with greater intensity and relief from the burden of all of the crap" - I've read enough to feel a great deal of tolerance in your work as a whole, but I have also heard these lines from highly intolerant people.

The promise is of greater intensity and relief from burden.  Such 'promises' raise alterverse considerations.  Language is happening at speeds we can't grasp easily.

I'm inclined to think economics is the plaque, grown so large we think it is the teeth!  In fact, I think we have been had on almost everything and need to rebuild our language at deeper levels than dental hygiene.

On Friday, April 10, 2015 at 11:43:56 AM UTC+1, Molly wrote:
There is a tendency to confuse viewpoint with opinion, and I suppose the confusion comes in that most people don't examine what constitutes the way they view their life, belief, emotion, mental construct, faith, psychology, event biology in that the body in the midst of a crisis will create the biochemical environment that skews biological responses. This holistic system that constitutes the way we "view" life is not at all the same as the opinions we form of a particular experience or set of experiences, say of an authors books.

Getting rid of the dross in our viewpoint, like cleaning the plaque from teeth, is not an effort most people consider. We believe what we believe because we believe it and not many bother to ask why. But shedding ourselves of belief and emotion and the mental constructs that come from over analyzing everything can quiet us internally for long enough to actually experience life with with greater intensity and relief from the burden of all of the crap.

On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 4:06:06 PM UTC-4, archytas wrote:
"An awareness of how our viewpoint creates our experience naturally allows for an intrinsic morality - one that comes from the inside and moves out, instead of being developed and then imposed from the outside in".  This is typical Molly stuff I think very important and mostly wrong at the same time.  It's from page 4 of 'All About Living' (Book One) -

When people can speak relatively freely with each other, it is possible to compare the odious Alan of 'Modern Toss' with our own friend Allan, growling from the cellar or being a breath of fresh air on whim and mood.  One can admire Molly's work and see glaring holes, be touched by Tony's art and compare it, say, with a children's entertainer twisting up balloon animals (Tony would have plumbing pipe to twist) - think of Don with my old Browning gas-action shotgun on watch for over-wordiness, Chris as 'Duffman' and so on.  

Rather than being big things as in Tony's reservation, alterverses might be small, like friendship and ribbing, potentially the turn of the vile insults to exchanges of charm.  What I'm thinking about is how we can keep 'alter claims' honest.  

First, we have to be able to recognise the claims and how they are supported in alter-universes.  To get to what any of this means we need to talk through the claims we make.  I find many people who claim to have intrinsic morality but seem to me almost entirely outer directed and hardly switched on at all.  At some point we have to consider whether Molly's text offers alterverse justification to people with almost no real self-development, possibly a dishonest promise whether she intends it or not.  I haven't seen anyone in ME since Chazwin who would take on something like this.

I have an example from science, but it will take me a while to write out.  If I wasn't doing this for something else, I wouldn't bother.  

On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 5:12:43 AM UTC+1, archytas wrote:
There's a character called Allan in 'Modern Toss' - though with part of the 'L' removed -

It was easy to get what you were on about Tony - the leap into the hole Allan landed in has more of that "alter" feel.  

Somewhere in the thesis, there is a quote concerning a woman saving the world rather than another Noah.  My experience with women as bosses is that they are usually even worse than men, often very cruel micro-managers.  Of course, I avoid work with bosses.  Clinton is just a crook now - Warren sometimes looks OK.  GOP women turn out to believe in  super-weirdo stuff like the Antarctic being on the Moon and ruled by arthropods.  They play well with the public until photographs with tall black guys emerge.

Is a promise of the female divine saving the world honest?  Sounds well over the top to me.  Molly makes claims for the imagination, but also talks of where the hell anyone can put their hard-earned and get some kind of return in dotage rather than suffer the general fate of oldies in noble savage circumstances (buried alive, spear end).  What is on offer in Molly's alter-universe of 'salvation', what are the honest promises if we still need a pension plan (that probably won't work!) - this is not a criticism of my friend.  I think these paradoxes arise as we speak.  Allan sometimes 'grouches' them out.  It maybe that a piece of Tony's art facilitates reception of hundreds of 'alterverses'.  I can help create learning situations to explore alter.  Molly talks of non-dual etc - I think with some spark of originality I don't find in better known authors.

I know, as soon as I speak, that I should be able to 'speal alter' - not some bill of goods as Allan said.  There are, for instance, at least nine different types of economics.  Organisation theories generally start in American pop-psychology, yet go somewhere else entirely if we start in continental philosophy, critical models of psychology or even good sense we confuse with common sense. 

I don't wonder anymore about Allan.  

 I was only offering a thought as to a very large denominations curious veneration of a quasi deity and why that never trickled down to the exclusive Vatican men's club.  

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 4:08:44 PM UTC-4, archytas wrote:
I'm wondering whether we end up screwed by terms as big as universe before we start.  I think alter-universes may be small.  Maybe Allan's reply to you here is one Tony?  I don't understand where he got to there in response to what you said - a world of understanding is missing somehow.  I can even feel something threatening in what Allan says, almost Gabby-like. "Now do not ever attack my Father and his beliefs ever again.. get some brains  and understanding in your head"  My head can only ask 'where the fuck did that come from'? - somewhat mediated by some idea I have of him as a nice guy not that different from me.

I don't start thinking with much that is clear to start with and some of my journeys end up as forgettable rough passages.  Alternate universes are like Hilbert's 'Hotel Infinity' - never full because a further room can always be added.

I was wondering more on what we can honestly promise about them when we speak of imaginative change as a real possibility for another person.  I suppose, along with the MA student, we could all explore the feminine divine in us.  I'd guess even Moll would wonder where we might get a drink of it, even if she has plenty of rhetoric well beyond the thesis.

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 5:34:33 PM UTC+1, facilitator wrote:
I have trouble with the term "Alternate Universe" . The universe, by nature, would include all alternatives.

The Catholics have a cult of Mary which states in repetitive prayer: "Holy Mary mother of God",  seeing her as a co-redeemer and creator of the divine.  


On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 9:34:28 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote:
Sex is how we currently reproduce, gender is probably a wider concept and hardly stops at male and female.  I had wondered if you guys think much in terms of social construction.  I tend to like working with people who can tell the shit from the sawdust and why the unmentioned in the manual crow-bar is so essential.  'I'm going to help from the feminine divine Neil' doesn't sound very promising.  The mug, for instance, could come from various 'inspirations'.  And one can say much the same of the thesis.  I used to see a hundred of so a year, a few quite brilliant (this one isn't), some so obviously good in the practice I'd have preferred no write-up and down to the plagiarised majority.  We might take Allan's stance and ask for a 'jar of feminine divine', but this isn't how I would treat something like this educationally.  

I think an 'alter-universe' needs to be created for a thesis like this to exist as a process.  We might think more generally about the difference between the alter-universe of a Muslim woman in an area with a promotion of virtue and prevention of vice squad and a grad student of Judith Butler.  

What interests me is what promises we can genuinely make about radical change.  You see, amongst some academics this thesis would be an outright fail.  I could both support and crush it, if I was hired as an advocate.

I would see stuff like this as relevant to building with the imagination - though also find it dull and conservative.    

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 12:12:43 PM UTC+1, Allan Heretic wrote:
I will be the first to admit having  a great deal of problems with gender and spirituality .  When  I feel  someone trying to sell me a bill of good I lose interest quickly.

I'll get back on why I think any aspects of divine relate to alter-universes Molly.  Allan could be seen to miss the point on this thesis, though my own response had a lot of his experience in it.  Here's a cruder example of the 'divine feminine'.


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